Foreflight 10.1 Released...

[flyingcheesehead]

I've always been curious about EFB market share from a business perspective. I know Foreflight is the assumed market leader but if that's the case by how much? Has anyone ever seen a pie chart or statistics showing EFB by platform (Ipad, Android, C64), then a breakout of various EFB products and compare that to the active pilot population?

I don't think any of them are releasing user data, so really nobody knows. I suppose each company individually can tell what percentage of the entire pilot population is using their particular product, but relatively, it's an unknown.

That said, we did a survey of my 30-member flying club to inform our purchase of a new ADS-B transponder. 28 of the 30 flew with iPads (one with a Garmin portable GPS, one with paper charts still) - Even the guy who worked for Google had an iPad to fly with.

27 out of the 28 iPad users used ForeFlight, with the other one using Garmin Pilot. So, 90% market share within the scope of our club. (Yes, that's statistically insignificant, but still pretty interesting.)

 

[OkieAviator]

I'm still on the Vic-20 for my EFB but hoping to upgrade to the C64 shortly. Not sure what I'm going to do with all the extra RAM though.

There is some data in this thread: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/foreflight-market-penetration.105457/

POA users apparently like Foreflight the best... or at least those that answered. I binged around and found a market survey you could buy.... I don't care enough to buy it. I would make the hypothesis that single engine GA pilots prefer Ipads with Foreflight. Probably stems from their CFIs or local group of pilots using it, which is why I started using it. Few summers ago I was at my cousins wedding (F15 driver) and obviously a majority of his friends were also military pilots. Out of about 10 guys only one of them used a COTS EFB. He's a Marine out flying an F18 with an Ipad and Foreflight strapped to his leg which I found amusing. But the link to GA was still there because he actively flies 182s around.

 

[timwinters]

The only thing I'll say is Foreflight was just fine for my needs three or four years ago and IT NEVER CRASHED back then.

I can't say that any longer. It doesn't crash often but it indeed does occasionally.

I'd rather have less features and a bullet proof app than one with more features that crashes on me in the middle of an approach.

Just sayin'

 

[Sam D]

POA users apparently like Foreflight the best... or at least those that answered. I binged around and found a market survey you could buy.... I don't care enough to buy it. I would make the hypothesis that single engine GA pilots prefer Ipads with Foreflight. Probably stems from their CFIs or local group of pilots using it, which is why I started using it. Few summers ago I was at my cousins wedding (F15 driver) and obviously a majority of his friends were also military pilots. Out of about 10 guys only one of them used a COTS EFB. He's a Marine out flying an F18 with an Ipad and Foreflight strapped to his leg which I found amusing. But the link to GA was still there because he actively flies 182s around.

Our G200 pilots switched to Foreflight a year or two ago but they still used a Jepp app or something to display the Jepp charts and they used Fltplan for performance planning. Now they solely use Foreflight.

 

[ahypnoz]

One thing FF could do which would be really nice is filter the airports with 24 hour self service/ full service gas for those times that you are diverting in flight and would like a place to fill up and regroup after 5pm.

Another upgrade feature is current wind direction on approach plate selection tab

Zulu time somewhere on every screen

For safety, a 20 nm dashed circle around the red (high intensity) part of thunder storms

 

[flyingcheesehead]

One thing FF could do which would be really nice is filter the airports with 24 hour self service/ full service gas for those times that you are diverting in flight and would like a place to fill up and regroup after 5pm.

I'd love the ability to have a Restaurant/Courtesy Car overlay as well. I'm heading west this weekend, and I'm not quite sure where I want to go for gas and lunch.

Another upgrade feature is current wind direction on approach plate selection tab

This kind of exists already. Go to Airports, then Runways and it shows wind components for each runway. Once you've chosen your runway, scroll down and a list of approaches to that runway is there.

 

[Cogito]

I'd love the ability to have a Restaurant/Courtesy Car overlay as well. I'm heading west this weekend, and I'm not quite sure where I want to go for gas and lunch.

+1. I've made a similar suggestion every year at OSH, but it's not a sexy feature, just useful. I wonder if we started a email writing campaign would we have more luck?

 

[SkyDog58]

So then... would it be safe to say that reviews are mixed?

 

[denverpilot]

+1. I've made a similar suggestion every year at OSH, but it's not a sexy feature, just useful. I wonder if we started a email writing campaign would we have more luck?

They have nowhere to pull the data from.

The guy who created his own DB and App who posted around here let the App die, as best as I can tell.

A software company isn’t going to pay someone to sit and do the data entry and investigation work on that type of thing, typically.

And they’d get complaints if they made it a pilot settable thing and the data was always inaccurate, garbage in, garbage out. And anything updated by the public is going to have lots of garbage in.

I’m amazed their own airport comments thing has lasted this long.

Must be possible because they know who to refund their money back to and dump them as a subscriber or somehow block them if they post malicious crap in the comments.

But I’m sure they have to have someone waste some small but measurable amount of time on cleaning up stupid comments each year.

 

[atbroome]

Where do you get four tiers? Basic, Pro, Performance.

I'd argue there are actually 5: Basic, Basic Plus, Pro, Pro Plus, and Performance Plus

They highlight 3 (Basic Plus, Pro Plus, Performance Plus) but allow you to get to the Basic and Pro options under "Build your own plan"

I'm not an active flyer so I just let my Basic Plus expire. I re-subsribed last year when getting back to flying after a 5 year break. I guess the sub cost is a drop in the bucket, but having been a subscriber for a while I'm still a bit miffed that terrain and hazard warnings require the Pro plan.

Too bad they don't allow free or cheap access for Web planning only account - I find its great for chair flight planning and could probably hook them a few paying customers.

 

[denverpilot]

The really stupid thing about ForeFlight versions and ordering is it’s a mobile app that you can’t order anything properly from inside of it. Haha.

Garmin is no better in this regard.

That shelling out to a mobile browser thing is hideous UI/UX for account info and purchases.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The really stupid thing about ForeFlight versions and ordering is it’s a mobile app that you can’t order anything properly from inside of it. Haha.

Garmin is no better in this regard.

That shelling out to a mobile browser thing is hideous UI/UX for account info and purchases.

It's pretty common on iOS, because 30% of any in-app purchase goes to Apple. Thus, your subscription would cost $285 if they did it in app.

Yeah, Apple, that one's kind of stupid in this day and age... But they'd probably lose money on the App Store without it, since there are so many games and such that are free but have in-app purchases.

 

[denverpilot]

It's pretty common on iOS, because 30% of any in-app purchase goes to Apple. Thus, your subscription would cost $285 if they did it in app.

Yeah, Apple, that one's kind of stupid in this day and age... But they'd probably lose money on the App Store without it, since there are so many games and such that are free but have in-app purchases.

They just continue to amaze at their inability to treat customers well. They’re already getting $2K per customer on every forced hardware upgrade to keep up with their bloatware.

30% off the top of App developer’s revenues is like treating every app developer like a bad credit risk credit card user.

I really don’t like that Google is in charge of Android either, but I definitely hope they continue to improve and kick Cook’s pompous idealess ass.

Still, is the Apple developer EULA written in such a way that ANY in-app purchase, even ones that don’t use Apple’s payment system, are subject to this 30% “If It Pleases The Crown May I Sell Things?” Tax?

Reason I ask, is buttons in the app that talk to a secured API on ForeFlight’s severs could still make that a MUCH better UI/UX over shelling out to a mobile browser/WebKit, whatever the hell that ugly mess is.

If Apple is blocking that sort of thing, they’re true pricks. I’m sure if they are they’re touring how wonderful and secure their setup is, with no trust whatsoever of app developers to also be smart enough to develop their own systems.

Which of course, is silly, since there’s plenty of processing houses that provide direct APIs and the App can integrate code at the other end of that link and the transaction never even has to touch a ForeFlight server — which is of course likely another big deal these days for many web companies. They just embed someone else’s transaction software directly to avoid various security audits and standards.

I really hate it that to get a halfway decent experience buying a mobile app, I have to go sit down at a full blown computer with a browser and the mobile app really can’t handle its own sales.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

They just continue to amaze at their inability to treat customers well. They’re already getting $2K per customer on every forced hardware upgrade to keep up with their bloatware.

Again, your $2K figure is hyperbole.

30% off the top of App developer’s revenues is like treating every app developer like a bad credit risk credit card user.

It's not a bad deal for a smaller developer, though. You don't have to run your own payment system(s), you don't have to even have a web site, you don't have to pay bandwidth for downloads, etc...

Still, is the Apple developer EULA written in such a way that ANY in-app purchase, even ones that don’t use Apple’s payment system, are subject to this 30% “If It Pleases The Crown May I Sell Things?” Tax?

I'm not really sure of the current state of things. I think that the "most favored nation" clause was thrown out in the courts, and some large organizations have managed to get agreements to keep this sort of thing from happening or get their percentages knocked down.

It makes lots of sense in the example I cited: Free games with in-app purchases for funding. However, in the context of subscription services where you can buy the subscription online without going through Apple, it really makes no sense to force the user to do so, IMO.

 

[denverpilot]

Again, your $2K figure is hyperbole.

BS. An iPhone X plus a reasonably high tier iPad to get two or three years service out of at the bloat rate of both iOS and FF is $2000.

And you’re the person who says but the highest possible iOS devices available at the time or you’ll be losing even more money in the Apple death march. $2000 doesn’t get you there anymore.

Good luck getting much utility out of either device without $1800 over three years in cellular charges either, but that one isn’t limited to Crapple.

 

[denverpilot]

It's not a bad deal for a smaller developer, though. You don't have to run your own payment system(s), you don't have to even have a web site, you don't have to pay bandwidth for downloads, etc...

When did we conveniently switch to small game developers here?

We are talking about ForeFlight, a company that solidly hitches their wagon to Apple only, touts t as a benefit even, and sells plenty of high dollar product, and then cripples their payment system to avoid Apple’s.

You even gave the numbers as to how using the Apple system would nearly triple the price of their product.

Clearly Apple is not worth it to them. Or at all.

They’re so far out of line with card processing rates that real businesses like FF and Garmin (and a whole bunch of others) avoid Apple’s payment platform like it’s the plague. They’re probably paying 1/3 or less to process the payments elsewhere.

And that’s saying a lot that they’re more than willing to put customers through a horrid UI/UX payment experience to avoid the built in one.

Small developers, if you’re really going there, can get payment processing and all of the code pre-written and full PCI compliance for less than .30 on the dollar easily. And they’ll get it cross-platform, too. I have a processor for my stuff that not only beats Apple’s prices, they also have full integration to my chosen business accounting software and almost every major business accounting software. From any OS or web application.

Apple is just back to their expensive walled garden ways and hasn’t innovated since Jobs died. Jobs tried to open them up, but they didn’t learn the lesson.

Their payment system is great — for lazy people selling tiny products — from their basements, as a side job.

We were talking about aviation apps. Not Pokémon Go. Real software.

 

[denverpilot]

They highlight 3 (Basic Plus, Pro Plus, Performance Plus) but allow you to get to the Basic and Pro options under "Build your own plan"

Just as a point of order...

I’m logged into my account now (on a desktop browser which is stupid and sucks for an app purchase, as previously mentioned... haha...) and there is NO “Build Your Own” anymore on the subscription and renewal page. Pretty sure that was a one time thing the year they raised rates.

Your choices are Basic Plus, Pro Plus, and Performance Plus. Then you choose regions, US/Canada. After that you have the option to bounce to another page for Jeppesen charts. And after that there’s a “ForeFlight Business” page.

Interestingly on the Business page what looks like the equivalent of Pro Plus license is $50 less annually, but there’s a minimum 2 licenses. And Checklist, Synth Vision, and (the useless) Logbook are optional at $25, $25, and $50 a year.

You can still do better than Pro Plus by $25 a copy if you don’t mind sharing a business account with a friend, though.

So it looks like the Pro Plus is still the majority single user purchase at $100 more than the versions of old, with no way to dump unused features a la carte. Which is what it was last year.

$50 a year higher than the “equivalent” Garmin Pilot product, “IFR Pro” but I think you still have some add ons in Pilot after that level also. (Don’t know, ours is in a bundle and a coupon with our GTN database this year, but I’ll look in their renewal webpage also when I have time later.)

 

[timwinters]

Jeeeezus...

Sometimes the old Glenn vs. Tom debates seem tame.

 

[Sam D]

Nate -- I think you should stick with Foreflight a little longer. Have you seen some of the leaked features for version 11?

Double secret Foreflight upcoming features:
* 5th wheel and related truck maintenance manual now available in documents
* "IT 8-ball" a brand new feature, just shake the tablet and get the perfect fix for your IT issues with innovative options such as "reboot the system", "read the manual", "call Bangladesh", etc
* Text expander: take any simple sentence you type and turn it into a 500 word post
* In addition to 100LL and Jet A fuel prices, we'll also be introducing "cig finder" showing the cheapest carton prices right on the map view

 

[GeorgeC]

I’m logged into my account now (on a desktop browser which is stupid and sucks for an app purchase, as previously mentioned... haha...) and there is NO “Build Your Own” anymore on the subscription and renewal page.

Sure there is, I just used it the other day.
https://foreflight.com/pricing
and then click "Build your own plan".

 

[SkyDog58]

Jeeeezus...

Sometimes the old Glenn vs. Tom debates seem tame.

Haven't seen Glenn on here for awhile. I wonder where he went.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Sure there is, I just used it the other day.
https://foreflight.com/pricing
and then click "Build your own plan".

Just as a point of order...

I’m logged into my account now (on a desktop browser which is stupid and sucks for an app purchase, as previously mentioned... haha...) and there is NO “Build Your Own” anymore on the subscription and renewal page. Pretty sure that was a one time thing the year they raised rates.

No, it's there, like @GeorgeC said. I just looked myself. It's not super obvious, but it appears that if you just scroll down you'll see it anyway.

Interestingly on the Business page what looks like the equivalent of Pro Plus license is $50 less annually, but there’s a minimum 2 licenses. And Checklist, Synth Vision, and (the useless) Logbook are optional at $25, $25, and $50 a year.

You can still do better than Pro Plus by $25 a copy if you don’t mind sharing a business account with a friend, though.

Uh, no. Pro Plus for single users is $199 and includes all of those, while they appear to be optional on the Business plans. So the Business one would be $250/yr to get what you get with Pro Plus at $199/year.

So it looks like the Pro Plus is still the majority single user purchase at $100 more than the versions of old, with no way to dump unused features a la carte. Which is what it was last year.

You can drop down to Pro for $150/yr and then "buy back" whichever features you want from Pro Plus that Pro excludes, it appears.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

When did we conveniently switch to small game developers here?

I was merely attempting to make the point that there is some history behind it and justification of it. I wasn't talking specifically about anyone.

You even gave the numbers as to how using the Apple system would nearly triple the price of their product.

How is 30% going to triple the price?

They’re so far out of line with card processing rates that real businesses like FF and Garmin (and a whole bunch of others) avoid Apple’s payment platform like it’s the plague. They’re probably paying 1/3 or less to process the payments elsewhere.

That's because we're not talking merely about card processing when it comes to the app store.

Apple is just back to their expensive walled garden ways and hasn’t innovated since Jobs died. Jobs tried to open them up, but they didn’t learn the lesson.

Are you kidding? Jobs was all about the walled garden.

 

[denverpilot]

How is 30% going to triple the price?

You calculated it above and said a ForeFlight plan would be over $250 if they used Apple's payment system. Do I really need to go find it for you?

That's because we're not talking merely about card processing when it comes to the app store.

You get those other things from the Apple garden by simply giving them whatever their "take" is on the app sale. If you sell a "free" app that "phone's home" to your servers and checks for a subscription like ForeFlight does, what do you pay? Must not be much, because that's what ForeFlight does.

Are you kidding? Jobs was all about the walled garden.

He was opening the hardware at the same time as keeping the walled garden paying for it. The hardware is slammed closed again under Cook. It interrelates with Crapple. Jobs was STARTING to open them up, I said... not completed... he croaked and left the guy who knows manufacturing in charge... who closed the hardware back down (pesky users, installing cheap SSDs for less than half our price!) and then can't figure out how to do anything but keep making the physical product bigger on older products.

His phone team added (and maybe in one case did a little better) stuff Samsung beat him to market on by a year. More if you don't count their battery debacle... What's left of his phone team, anyway... he's lost most of the Jobs era engineers now...

 

[denverpilot]

No, it's there, like @GeorgeC said. I just looked myself. It's not super obvious, but it appears that if you just scroll down you'll see it anyway.


Uh, no. Pro Plus for single users is $199 and includes all of those, while they appear to be optional on the Business plans. So the Business one would be $250/yr to get what you get with Pro Plus at $199/year.


You can drop down to Pro for $150/yr and then "buy back" whichever features you want from Pro Plus that Pro excludes, it appears.

Okay, where is it...?

Screenshots of my account...

I think you and the other guy are getting a different option because you have a Beta account, and he may have "no account"... don't know what he has, but when I'm logged in, I get this below...

No "Choose Your Own" on it.

 

[denverpilot]

Ahh cute... I see what they did @flyingcheesehead ...

Clickpath...

Foreflight.com
Log In
Click on your Name in the left bar of the chart thing
Click on "Upgrade or Renew My Subscription"
It takes you to ... your account.

URL is like: https://www.foreflight.com/buy#/account/[snipped account number]

BUT... if you want to see all plans AND that "Choose your own" stuff you have to BACK UP A LEVEL from where the clickpath takes you into your account...

Click on "Individual Plans" next to "Your Plan" and you're there.

You never see the Individual Plan bake your own options if you follow the normal clickpath to your account renewal/purchase page it leads you to.

Nice cheat, ForeFlight. Subtle. Sneaky.

 

[denverpilot]

So I did log into my Garmin Pilot account and confirmed...

$150 for full Pro everything with Garmin Pilot.
$199 for full Pro individual everything with ForeFlight.

- Pilot includes performance stuff ForeFlight only gives in Performance Plus now. Not identical but ForeFlight has none at all. Garmin's is certainly fine for GA ops.
- Can drop a number of add-ons and get ForeFlight back to $150 Individual in the choose-your-own, but you lose four "major" features, all of which are just included in the base price of GP now, even if you ignore them.

"Perfect" Foreflight for me would be choose your own with Pro & Synth Vision only (once I have the stupid AHRS working in the plane), which would be $175.

"Perfect" GP for me is IFR, and already includes Synth Vision. $150.

So bottom line is, GP gives more bang for the buck, all the other features are there if you want them, but you can ignore them if you want for $50 a year cheaper.

Another minor item, GP doesn't care what kind of devices you have... it gives you three, no matter if they're tablets or phones.
ForeFlight gets picky about what kind of device it is and says two tablets, one phone.

Not a huge deal, but could be annoying under certain circumstances.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

You calculated it above and said a ForeFlight plan would be over $250 if they used Apple's payment system. Do I really need to go find it for you?

How is $250 double $200?

He was opening the hardware at the same time as keeping the walled garden paying for it. The hardware is slammed closed again under Cook. It interrelates with Crapple. Jobs was STARTING to open them up, I said... not completed... he croaked and left the guy who knows manufacturing in charge... who closed the hardware back down (pesky users, installing cheap SSDs for less than half our price!) and then can't figure out how to do anything but keep making the physical product bigger on older products.

What was Jobs doing to "open the hardware"?

Okay, where is it...?

Follow the link that was posted. It's right under the feature matrix.

I think you and the other guy are getting a different option because you have a Beta account, and he may have "no account"... don't know what he has, but when I'm logged in, I get this below...

To my knowledge, he's not on the beta team. And we're going to a page that doesn't require login at all, though if you are logged in it says "welcome back..."

It looks nothing like the shots you posted. Not sure how you got there - I thought it was just a mobile site, but I went to the same page on my iPhone and I still get the build your own link.

(adding: )

Nice cheat, ForeFlight. Subtle. Sneaky.

Sneaky? You followed a fairly convoluted path and got into ForeFlight Web and found a spot where they haven't got all the options. Google "foreflight renewal" and that doesn't even show up. Yet you take it as a sign that ForeFlight is being maliciously "sneaky" and "cheating".

Tell you what - I'm going to report it as a bug. Let's see whether they fix it, or they take the options away from their regular renewal site.

- Pilot includes performance stuff ForeFlight only gives in Performance Plus now. Not identical but ForeFlight has none at all. Garmin's is certainly fine for GA ops.

Not true. The "Basic" performance profiles, that everyone gets, allow you to enter climb speed/rate/fuel flow, cruise speed/fuel flow, and descent speed/rate/fuel flow, just like always. and it's also "fine for GA ops."

 

[denverpilot]

It looks nothing like the shots you posted. Not sure how you got there - I thought it was just a mobile site, but I went to the same page on my iPhone and I still get the build your own link.

(adding: )


Sneaky? You followed a fairly convoluted path and got into ForeFlight Web and found a spot where they haven't got all the options. Google "foreflight renewal" and that doesn't even show up. Yet you take it as a sign that ForeFlight is being maliciously "sneaky" and "cheating".

Tell you what - I'm going to report it as a bug. Let's see whether they fix it, or they take the options away from their regular renewal site.

I took the ONLY clickpath a logged in customer has to get to renewal and payment. It was not convoluted.

I gave the exact clickpath. Log in first at the main site, and follow whatever you find that will take you to paying for a renewal.

It will drop you a level below where the “choose your own” options are shown.

It IS sneaky. Those options should be on the ordering and payment page that it takes you to.

Those screenshots are of the left half of the payment screen. The right has your address and payment info and I wasn’t going to post that here.

You only see the choose your own options if you’re not following the clickpath of a logged in, paying customer, trying to renew.

 

[AggieMike88]

How I am viewing this discussion

KENT

NATE

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I took the ONLY clickpath a logged in customer has to get to renewal and payment. It was not convoluted.

Go to ForeFlight.com.

Click "Buy Now" right next to the login button. Doesn't matter whether you're logged in or not. (I am.) It takes you to the pricing page that has all the options.

Much shorter and easier than the path you took, and makes perfect sense.

It IS sneaky. Those options should be on the ordering and payment page that it takes you to.

More likely, it's just that they pay a lot more attention to the mobile app than they do to the web version (though that is changing now, there's been a lot more added in the last couple months). You're assuming malicious intent from a company that tends to be exactly the opposite.

You only see the choose your own options if you’re not following the clickpath of a logged in, paying customer, trying to renew.

Or, if you just go straight to "Buy Now".

I filed a bug for the web one missing the a la carte options.

 

[denverpilot]

Go to ForeFlight.com.

Click "Buy Now" right next to the login button. Doesn't matter whether you're logged in or not. (I am.) It takes you to the pricing page that has all the options.

Much shorter and easier than the path you took, and makes perfect sense.



More likely, it's just that they pay a lot more attention to the mobile app than they do to the web version (though that is changing now, there's been a lot more added in the last couple months). You're assuming malicious intent from a company that tends to be exactly the opposite.



Or, if you just go straight to "Buy Now".

I filed a bug for the web one missing the a la carte options.

That’s also not where the button INSIDE the app takes you. It takes you to your logged in ACCOUNT PAGE.

Which is exactly why I went there also. It wasn’t some silly reason to miss the Buy Now page. It was because logging in is EXACTLY what the App does if you click on the button inside the app.

The defense that they’re sloppy at website building isn’t really a great one to garner trust with, if that was your intent. LOL.

I went exactly where the app was trying to go.

The “no malicious intent” excuse for easy to test software engineering is well beyond old.

I’m sure the fourteen hours of security updates I ran on an OS released four years ago on a fast quad processor server with plenty of RAM, was all caused by some devs who were “non malicious” too. LOL.

Crap coding is crap coding. We are talking something that is literally five buttons in the app if it was coded the “Apple way” that they avoid and drive you to their website instead.

Here’s an idea. Two versions. At Garmin pricing.

Wait... somebody already did that...

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Crap coding is crap coding. We are talking something that is literally five buttons in the app if it was coded the “Apple way” that they avoid and drive you to their website instead.

So you'd rather spend $250...?

Anyway, I reported it. Hopefully it gets improved.

Here’s an idea. Two versions. At Garmin pricing.

Wait... somebody already did that...

So, you're saying that they should ignore the potentially lucrative turbine market and focus on YOU, for less money? Got it.

You might as well be one of the people saying they should give it away. Or a hater like Clip4. Personally, I'm happy that they take money from the military, turbine operators, etc. to help keep them well-staffed to bring me new features. It's tough to make a buck in aviation, and the more they can tap those markets, the longer they'll be around. Good for me, and good for you too.

 

[denverpilot]

So, you're saying that they should ignore the potentially lucrative turbine market and focus on YOU, for less money? Got it.

I never said that. I said I’m not getting much for my $200/yr which used to be $100 a year. You argued some 12 feature list that turns out is a nothingburger for most Pro customers.

You also got upset by the accurate observation and that it’ll take $2000 worth of Apple hardware to continue supporting their Apple habit.

Those are just facts.

I’ve also said Garmin is $50 cheaper and essentially on par feature-wise. It also has Concierge which is the ForeFlight killer for anyone who owns a Flightstream.

They can focus on whatever customers they want. They do in fact.

If they want to ignore the customers that made them even possible for the new pretty girls at the ball, that’s their choice. It’s common in the software biz.

Trade up. Find “better” customers with deeper pockets. Make more money. Growth is king.

It’s rental software. Like a rental house, if it’s time to leave you finish the lease and move. They won’t miss me, they’re courting corporations now. Good for them.

 

[GeorgeC]

Now they just need to add a declutter toggle for the yellow tinting for populated places...

Hey, they finally fixed that.

 

[Salty]

I really just don’t understand the haters. If you think something else is a better value, then use something else. If you don’t think any are worth it, then don’t use any. Or build your own.

 

[Brad Z]

I really just don’t understand the haters. If you think something else is a better value, then use something else. If you don’t think any are worth it, then don’t use any. Or build your own.

Just a bunch of grumpy old men duking it out over a grumpy old man software rant four years ago. Please let's not rehash it.

 

[Twin_Flyer]

Just a bunch of grumpy old men duking it out over a grumpy old man software rant four years ago. Please let's not rehash it.

 

[jsstevens]

Just a bunch of grumpy old men duking it out over a grumpy old man software rant four years ago. Please let's not rehash it.

But I qualify as old now so I can participate...

 

[MBDiagMan]

Noticed it while making sure the iOS devices were up to date on things while I'm still at the office with "real" Internet today. LOL...

Not much at all in there for standard users or even "Pro" users... they're obviously chasing the flight department market and others...

Vast majority of the updates are for Performance users or Flight Department users.

Definitely not dancing with those that brought them much, anymore.

So, is Foreflight not adequate in some way for your purposes?

Having spent much of may career in a software company, trying to develop features that could provide the most usefulness for most of our customers, it’s a difficult balance to achieve.

I feel that I’m a pretty typical FF GA user for the last 12 years or so and find the product quite feature rich for the GA world. What is missing for you? Please be specific.