Flying with the rear seat removed

Bob Noel said:
I trust that the FAA ASI won't expect me to have the logs (with
the entries for seat removal and revised W&B) in the aircraft.
And I trust that a valid W&B for the aircraft won't have to detail
all the stuff included/excluded from the W&B.
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Correct. But you may be requested to produce your logs at the FSDO for inspection.
 
Ha! Cessnas suck. The rear seats of my Cherokee are attached with velcro, and can be removed without nuttin'. Not that I would, they don't weigh much of anything.
 
steingar said:
Ha! Cessnas suck. The rear seats of my Cherokee are attached with velcro, and can be removed without nuttin'. Not that I would, they don't weigh much of anything.
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The rear seats in the Cherokee 6 just "pop" out. You just pull up on the back of the seat and then slide it rearward and its out. No tools needed.

I just checked the POH and there is something in there about having 5 seats removed for cargo. It doesn't talk about how to remove the seats though. I'd say this is covered under the same rules that would allow me to personally reupholster the entire interior, which would be a way bigger change than just popping a seat out for a flight.
 
Which in and of itself marked a significant improvement in the quality of construction of the Piper line.

steingar said:
Ha! Cessnas suck. The rear seats of my Cherokee are attached with velcro, and can be removed without nuttin'. Not that I would, they don't weigh much of anything.
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I contacted my local fsdo last year about this. You will need a log book entry by a A&P and a revised weight and balance, then you are good to go.
 
The 180 I owned prior to the current ride had been modified (with signed- off 337 blah) with two individual Piper seats with push-to-release mountings on one of the front seat-legs. The seat-belts that were originally attached to the rear seat frame had been reattached via a cable-yoke that was bolted to the the airframe. I wish I had the same system in this one, but have so far resisted the urge to do the work.
 
Holy thread resurrection!
I had forgotten about this.
Never did do it though, Tom scared me out of it. Not worth the hassles, like a lot of things aviation........:sad:
 
FWIW, in the T182T Skylane information manual, the pilots seat is noted as required for FAA certification. Not so for any of the other seats in the aircraft. They also have a separate loading arrangement chart with the second row seats removed, and a textual note "The rear bench seat can be removed to access the floorboard area of the rear cabin." It then goes on to describe how to securely fasten cargo in this area. The rear seat itself is 50 lbs.

None of this, however, goes to whether an A & P needs to sign off on the removal/installation of the seat.
 
Love the Beech Sundowner thumbscrew camlocks for the back seats. Easy in and out so we can haul the dogs.

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AirBaker said:
Do you really need an A&P? You're allowed to do 'minor' work to your plane as a Private Pilot. I'd say just remove it and recalculate the W&B minus the missing seat.
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calculating new weight and balance is not preventive maintenance.

Cessna 172 seats are not a optional item. on the type certificate. It's debatable if it is a major or minor mod, but it does require an A&P to remove and make the log entry and recalculate the Empty weight.

to add the weight of the new load, the center of weight, added at what moment would require some home work to find if the new load was within legal limits.
 
Tom-D said:
calculating new weight and balance is not preventive maintenance.
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But why couldn't you have the A&P provide two W&Bs and you just note which is active?

Tom-D said:
Cessna 172 seats are not a optional item. on the type certificate.
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On the R and S models it is shown as optional in the Comprehensive Equipment List in the Information Manual, just like on the T182T. Did that change with the R model, or is there a difference between the Comprehensive Equipment List provided in to the owner and the type certificate? During training, I was directed to look at the CEL to determine whether something was required (in absence of an MEL, etc.). We never discussed getting a copy of the type certificate and looking there.
 
Tom-D said:
calculating new weight and balance is not preventive maintenance.

Cessna 172 seats are not a optional item. on the type certificate. It's debatable if it is a major or minor mod, but it does require an A&P to remove and make the log entry and recalculate the Empty weight.

to add the weight of the new load, the center of weight, added at what moment would require some home work to find if the new load was within legal limits.
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I can see needing an A&P to recalculate a new empty weight and empty moment.
However the normal W&B calculations that pilots are required to complete, work just as well with negative numbers.
For those of us with seats that can be removed w/o tools, can't we just weigh the seat and use the negative of that value in our W&B calc?

Incidentally, we removed all of the ash trays from our airplane years ago.
 
gprellwitz said:
But why couldn't you have the A&P provide two W&Bs and you just note which is active?

Cessna 172 seats are not a optional item. on the type certificate.
Click to expand...
On the R and S models it is shown as optional in the Comprehensive Equipment List in the Information Manual, just like on the T182T. Did that change with the R model, or is there a difference between the Comprehensive Equipment List provided in to the owner and the type certificate? During training, I was directed to look at the CEL to determine whether something was required (in absence of an MEL, etc.). We never discussed getting a copy of the type certificate and looking there.
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Buy a plane that doesn't mention seats in the TCDS, like me ;)

BTW I have two W&B prepared by my A&P. One for seat in, one for seat out.
 
alaskaflyer said:
BTW I have two W&B prepared by my A&P. One for seat in, one for seat out.
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Me too. And I also carry a third one, with the co-pilot's seat out for when I really have a lot of stuff to haul.

Also, I R&R the seats myself. If they want to get that picky then so be it. I'll deal with the consequences and move on but don't have the time nor desire to worry about being violated over things this trivial.

By the way, I went through a PACE inspection a few years ago with my backseat out and a home-made cargo net installed. The only log book entry I had was a note by the A&P describing the three separate W&B's he produced at my request. The only comment the FAA boys made regarding the entire situation was "nice job on building the cargo net". They were out of the LIT FSDO.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
It maybe "silly and boring" to you,but during a ramp inspection if the FAA ASI sees a missing seat he may ask to see the approved documentation for performing the procedure. If you cannot produce this be prepared for the next step which may be very unpleasant.
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There's no requirement that you carry airframe logbooks with you. So when asked to provide such documentation and you respond, "It's in my hangar back home...." -- what then?

This sounds like "a turd font stink till it's kicked" problems...
 
dmccormack said:
There's no requirement that you carry airframe logbooks with you. So when asked to provide such documentation and you respond, "It's in my hangar back home...." -- what then?
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No problem. If the Inspector wants to see it then the next step will be a certified letter sent to you requesting a time and place to review your aircraft documents (log books). You will be given some time to respond (usually 10 days). If you choose to ignore the request then the FAA can move to the next step:

Title 49, USC

§ 44709. Amendments, modifications, suspensions, and revocations of certificates

(a) Reinspection and Reexamination.— The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may reinspect at any time a civil aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, design organization, production certificate holder, air navigation facility, or air agency, or reexamine an airman holding a certificate issued under section 44703 of this title.


 
Rotor&Wing said:
No problem. If the Inspector wants to see it then the next step will be a certified letter sent to you requesting a time and place to review your aircraft documents (log books). You will be given some time to respond (usually 10 days). If you choose to ignore the request then the FAA can move to the next step:
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Understood... but doesn't this fall into the "unlikely to occur" category?

:dunno:
 
dmccormack said:
Understood... but doesn't this fall into the "unlikely to occur" category?

:dunno:
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Depends. Most times when a request of log books are made, the Inspector will simply ask if he can see them. If you don't have them readily available he'll ask when would be a convenient time and place for you. Usually it's handled very informally.

Sometimes the Inspector will only request certain pages to be copied and faxed to him (or scanned and emailed).

The problems begin when someone tries to evade repeated request for documents. Having a "compliant" attitude goes a long way and most times even if a problem is discovered it's settled by counseling and everyone moves on.
 
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COFlyBoy said:
I can see needing an A&P to recalculate a new empty weight and empty moment.
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And that's no guarantee. Twice I've found mistakes when the A&P recalculated the empty W&B after work on the plane (avionics & a minor alteration). Nothing to be unsafe unless the plane were loaded at the CG limits, but a mistake nonetheless. He did fix it when brought to his attention.

I carry 2 W&B calculations: one with the (optional) semi-installed O2 tank in the plane, one without. The factory W&B included the O2 tank, but there are full instructions for removal because it's a portable tank that's mounted in the plane.
 
wsuffa said:
And that's no guarantee. Twice I've found mistakes when the A&P recalculated the empty W&B after work on the plane (avionics & a minor alteration). Nothing to be unsafe unless the plane were loaded at the CG limits, but a mistake nonetheless. He did fix it when brought to his attention.
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I calculated the new empty W&B when I installed a new battery. The IA just signed it for me (gratis, so I'm not complaining).
 
gprellwitz said:
But why couldn't you have the A&P provide two W&Bs and you just note which is active?


On the R and S models it is shown as optional in the Comprehensive Equipment List in the Information Manual, just like on the T182T. Did that change with the R model, or is there a difference between the Comprehensive Equipment List provided in to the owner and the type certificate? During training, I was directed to look at the CEL to determine whether something was required (in absence of an MEL, etc.). We never discussed getting a copy of the type certificate and looking there.
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All C-172's have the same type certificate, but the notes are effective on different models.

some 1272's have the equipment list in the POH, the A&P can do the removal, log entry, and note the change in the POH (there is a page for that) as to what was removed and do the calculation as to new empty weight and C/G in the POH

Then the pilot can use the data given in the POH to comply with their portion of Airworthy IAW the POH.

I know the "N" model has this option I'm not sure when this was started.
 
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COFlyBoy said:
I can see needing an A&P to recalculate a new empty weight and empty moment.
However the normal W&B calculations that pilots are required to complete, work just as well with negative numbers.
For those of us with seats that can be removed w/o tools, can't we just weigh the seat and use the negative of that value in our W&B calc?

Incidentally, we removed all of the ash trays from our airplane years ago.
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Its not a case of who can, its a case of who is allowed.
 
alaskaflyer said:
Buy a plane that doesn't mention seats in the TCDS, like me ;).
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are you required to comply with "TYPE DESIGN" ? does your aircraft meet the requirements of its production certificate with equipment removed?
 
COFlyBoy said:
I can see needing an A&P to recalculate a new empty weight and empty moment.
However the normal W&B calculations that pilots are required to complete, work just as well with negative numbers.
For those of us with seats that can be removed w/o tools, can't we just weigh the seat and use the negative of that value in our W&B calc?


Do you know the center of the weight you removed and the moment arm to that point? 1 of the two requirements for the calculation is missing if you don't.


Incidentally, we removed all of the ash trays from our airplane years ago.
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Did you place a no smoking placard in the aircraft when you did? that is a minor mod, but it does require a no smoking placard to satisfy the rules. (which I'm too lazy to look up right now)
 
I bought the prior plane (another 180) from an A&P in Arizona. He had owned it for 22 years, and when he offered it for sale the 337's and STC's were perfectly completed, signed off and organized, and a recent W&B was in the binder. The only problem was that he had prepared it using Word rather than Excel, and had somehow missed the empty CG by exactly 2". Using his numbers, the airplane was unflyable.

During the trip home, I spent a long evening converting the word file to excel and using the machine to add the columns, and emailed a copy to the IA that has worked with me for 40-some years.

wsuffa said:
And that's no guarantee. Twice I've found mistakes when the A&P recalculated the empty W&B after work on the plane (avionics & a minor alteration). Nothing to be unsafe unless the plane were loaded at the CG limits, but a mistake nonetheless. He did fix it when brought to his attention.

I carry 2 W&B calculations: one with the (optional) semi-installed O2 tank in the plane, one without. The factory W&B included the O2 tank, but there are full instructions for removal because it's a portable tank that's mounted in the plane.
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In case anyone's interested, I did remove the seat and put a post-it on the w/b sheet before flying SBA to OSH, across Canada to Ketchikan and home. Nobody ever expressed the slightest interest, including a very annoyed CBP agent at Glacier Park who conducted a detailed hour-plus interrogation (I hadn't phoned ahead after doing the eAPIS). He looked only at my medical and PPL, passport, and driver's license.

I've now re-installed the seat and am very unlikely to remove it again. I believe that the very small weight is more than offset by the ability to "secure" stuff behind the seat back relatively easily. It's also nice to have the option of unloading your gear and carrying passenger(s) along the way as I did in NYC last Fall.

An aside: one major reason for removing the seat was to enable the option of sleeping inside the plane. My advice: don't even think about doing that unless you're flying alone and are of small stature. I had a major claustrophobic episode after a fitful hour's sleep, and will -never- do that again.
 
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