Flying through an ADIZ

[pstan]

If a pilot enters an ADIZ without contacting atc, will that be a problem?

For example, a pilot files a flight plan IFR from MYBS Bimini, Bahamas, to Fort Lauderdale. Customs notification and Eapis are complete. Departs vfr on time, flies the filed route, for example BR57V.... at 4500 feet. Squawking 1200 and C. The adiz appears to start about 7 nm west of Bimini, so the aircraft enters the ADIZ quite soon after takeoff. The corridor is about another 25 miles further to the west. Lets say the frequencies are particularly congested, and the pilot doesn't get an acknowledgement from ATC until just past the ADIZ (35 miles west of Bimini).

Any repercussions, or is this perfectly legal?

Pstan

 

[Brad Z]

If a pilot enters an ADIZ without contacting atc, will that be a problem?

For example, a pilot files a flight plan IFR from MYBS Bimini, Bahamas, to Fort Lauderdale. Customs notification and Eapis are complete. Departs vfr on time, flies the filed route, for example BR57V.... at 4500 feet. Squawking 1200 and C. The adiz appears to start about 7 nm west of Bimini, so the aircraft enters the ADIZ quite soon after takeoff. The corridor is about another 25 miles further to the west. Lets say the frequencies are particularly congested, and the pilot doesn't get an acknowledgement from ATC until just past the ADIZ (35 miles west of Bimini).

Any repercussions, or is this perfectly legal?

Pstan

Squawking 1200 and not in contact with ATC doesn't really fulfill the 'I' in ADIZ, does it?

 

[pstan]

Brad, I don't know, that's why I'm asking for the wisdom of the members. Can you elaborate a bit please on the pilot's responsibilities?

 

[bobmrg]

Brad, I don't know, that's why I'm asking for the wisdom of the members. Can you elaborate a bit please on the pilot's responsibilities?

AIM 5-6-1 confuse you?

Bob Gardner

 

[Brad Z]

Brad, I don't know, that's why I'm asking for the wisdom of the members. Can you elaborate a bit please on the pilot's responsibilities?

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ifim/airspace/

Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ)
All aircraft entering U.S. domestic airspace from points outside must provide for identification prior to entry or exit. ADIZs have been established to assist in early identification of aircraft in the vicinity of international U.S. airspace boundaries (AIM Section 6, 5-6-1).
Many aircraft inbound to the U.S. will cross an ADIZ. There is no ADIZ between the U.S. and Canada. According to FAR Part 99, if penetrating an ADIZ, all aircraft of U.S. or foreign registry must file, activate, and close a flight plan with the appropriate aeronautical facility. In addition to normal ADIZ position reports, and any other reports Air Traffic Control may require, a foreign civil aircraft must give a position report at least one hour before ADIZ penetration, if it is not more than two hours average cruising speed from the U.S.
For Defense VFR (DVFR) flights, the estimated time of ADIZ penetration must be filed with the appropriate aeronautical facility at least 15 minutes before penetration, except for flights in the Alaskan ADIZ, in which case, report prior to penetration. Additionally, VFR pilots must receive and transmit a discrete transponder code.
Be sure to activate your flight plan before crossing the ADIZ.

 

[Velocity173]

It doesn't do you much good to file and then not get a discrete and contact ATC prior to penetration. A 1200 code bearing down on an ADIZ from the outside with no ATC contact is a bad thing. I've seen first hand FACSFAC launching F-16s on a 1200 code approaching the ADIZ. Not a good way to enter American airspace.

 

[pstan]

Actually, AIM 5 6 1 does confuse me. for example, the part Brad quoted below, "must provide for identification" seems a strange choice of words. In the example, the aircraft was on the filed plan, and on time, with a squawk (though not ifr yet). the AIM uses language such as to enter B airspace the pilot must "receive an appropriate ATC clearance". Much clearer.

Further in Brad's quote, "must file, activate, and close a flight plan with the appropriate aeronautical facility". In my example all 3 would have been accomplished, albeit the "activate" part would have occurred after ADIZ penetration.

Further in Brad's quote, "a foreign civil aircraft (eg Mexican, or Canadian) must give a position report at least one hour before ADIZ penetration". So how does one do this when departing Bimini 7 miles away or so? Unless, the filed flight plan provides the information to ATC?

Further in Brad's quote, "Be sure to activate your flight plan before crossing the ADIZ". Ok that's clear, though this information is not taken from the AIM

The AIM says to set the transponder to set to "reply on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC". So...1200 til picking up ifr?

From the AIM
"5. Aircraft Position Tolerances.
(b) Over water, the tolerance is plus or minus five minutes from the estimated time over a reporting point or point of penetration and within 20 NM from the centerline of the intended track over an estimated reporting point or point of penetration "
Of note, it seems difficult to determine this penetration point, as there are no reporting points that close. Is this boundary location something the flight planning services are able to compute?

So yes...I find it somewhat confusing. Before the barbs fly, please understand I'm just trying to understand exactly what the correct procedures are, that's all

And as for an answer to my question.....any repercussions I can expect? No F16s I expect, however a letter from the FAA?

 

[Brad Z]

So yes...I find it somewhat confusing. Before the barbs fly, please understand I'm just trying to understand exactly what the correct procedures are, that's all

And as for an answer to my question.....any repercussions I can expect? No F16s I expect, however a letter from the FAA?

If it were me I would take off VFR, climbing to an altitude I could pick up and initiate contact with Miami, and pick up my squawk code before turning towards the ADIZ.

 

[Unit74]

Stan


I have found there are some guys who really do want to help you..... And others who are so full of themselves, they make sarcastic remarks when you ask for help. Don't sweat over the ones who hold their nose high. Prolly best just to ignore the comment and wait for a down to earth answer vs trying to deal with arrogance and belittling answers.... Jes saying.

 

[Velocity173]

Stan


I have found there are some guys who really do want to help you..... And others who are so full of themselves, they make sarcastic remarks when you ask for help. Don't sweat over the ones who hold their nose high. Prolly best just to ignore the comment and wait for a down to earth answer vs trying to deal with arrogance and belittling answers.... Jes saying.

??? Brad and Bob just did all the leg work for him by citing the AIM reference. The OP is still confused as to why a non discrete (1200) code approaching the ADIZ and not in contact with ATC would be a problem. Don't know how much clearer the AIM could be in the matter. We just went through this scenario on the other thread with the midair between the Baron and the F-4s.

If I was approaching the ADIZ without an assigned code and not in contact with ATC, I'd orbit until I got in contact.

 

[hindsight2020]

Remember, filed doesn't mean active. You also seem to misunderstand 1200. That is not a discrete code, that's general VFR. That one is not gonna get you through, it is NOT assigned by ATC to you. You have to get that flight plan open, whether it'd be IFR or DVFR, so that they give you a squawk. Then and only then are you positively identified as friendly, and crossing the ADIZ will not trigger an intercept. Which means that yes, if pokey in ATC is being slow about getting back to you, you're gonna have to suck it up for a while and hang out outside the ADIZ until you can get that code brother. good luck!

 

[poadeleted20]

And as for an answer to my question.....any repercussions I can expect? No F16s I expect, however a letter from the FAA?

Actually, it could be F-16's -- armed ones at that. Don't get this one wrong.

 

[Brad Z]

Stan


I have found there are some guys who really do want to help you..... And others who are so full of themselves, they make sarcastic remarks when you ask for help. Don't sweat over the ones who hold their nose high. Prolly best just to ignore the comment and wait for a down to earth answer vs trying to deal with arrogance and belittling answers.... Jes saying.

Was it something I said?

 

[NoHeat]

You also seem to misunderstand 1200. That is not a discrete code, that's general VFR.

I've always thought the FAA did a poor job in choosing the adjective "discrete."

In a logical sense, 1200 is just as discrete as any other code that you can choose on your transponder. They're all just integers.

Maybe the FAA should have chosen "specially assigned" or "unique" or "distinguishing", to mean that yours is different from those of the others. "Discrete" doesn't really mean that.

 

[mcmanigle]

I've always thought the FAA did a poor job in choosing the adjective "discrete."

In a logical sense, 1200 is just as discrete as any other code that you can choose on your transponder. They're all just integers.

Maybe the FAA should have chosen "specially assigned" or "unique" or "distinguishing", to mean that yours is different from those of the others. "Discrete" doesn't really mean that.

As a scientist/engineer type, I agree with your definition (discrete vs continuous). But it seems "discrete" in non-technical English does have "individually distinct" as its most common definition. From Merriam-Webster:

dis·crete adjective \dis-ˈkrēt, ˈdis-ˌ\
separate and different from each other

1 : constituting a separate entity : individually distinct <several discrete sections>
2a : consisting of distinct or unconnected elements : noncontinuous
2b : taking on or having a finite or countably infinite number of values <discrete probabilities> <a discrete random variable>

 

[pstan]

Velocity173, scrambling F16's because someone is approaching, even before ADIZ penetration?

Brad Z and Hindsight, yes a very good idea.

Unit 74, thanks for the kind words. I'm not seeing the replies as that sarcastic, it is often hard to tell the tone of one's words when they are seen only in text.

Velocity173, I did read the AIM before posting, no one did "did all the leg work for him by citing the AIM reference". Thanks to Brad for the extra info.

The aim says "that transponder must be turned on and set to reply on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC". thats why I thought 1200 before contact with atc

Ron, are there F16's on quick alert based nearby? An idea where and how long it would take them to get airborne and then do an intercept?

In the AIM I see "a foreign civil aircraft (eg Mexican, or Canadian) must give a position report at least one hour before ADIZ penetration". So how can we do this when Bimini is only about 3 minutes flying time from the ADIZ?

Stan

 

[Velocity173]

Velocity173, scrambling F16's because someone is approaching, even before ADIZ penetration?

Brad Z and Hindsight, yes a very good idea.

Unit 74, thanks for the kind words. I'm not seeing the replies as that sarcastic, it is often hard to tell the tone of one's words when they are seen only in text.

Velocity173, I did read the AIM before posting, no one did "did all the leg work for him by citing the AIM reference". Thanks to Brad for the extra info.

The aim says "that transponder must be turned on and set to reply on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC". thats why I thought 1200 before contact with atc

Ron, are there F16's on quick alert based nearby? An idea where and how long it would take them to get airborne and then do an intercept?

In the AIM I see "a foreign civil aircraft (eg Mexican, or Canadian) must give a position report at least one hour before ADIZ penetration". So how can we do this when Bimini is only about 3 minutes flying time from the ADIZ?

Stan

I don't know what standard they use as far as when to scramble. You'd have to contact NORAD or whatever long range coastal radar unit that works the area for that answer. The situation I was describing I'm not even sure the aircraft had penetrated yet. I was working approach and "Sealord" (FACSFAC) called and said something like "Beaufort, you talking to the 1200 code on the Beaufort XXX radial at XX miles.." I said no because if I was, he'd be on my discrete and not a 1200. Within minutes of hanging up, 2 F-16s were scrambled out of CHS. AF ANG has units that do TDY all along the east coast for these occasions. Of course they have fixed base (125th) ANG units that handle this stuff as well.

So, like I said, if I was approaching the ADIZ, on a 1200 code, not talking to ATC, I'd orbit until I got ahold of someone. I'd say once you do penetrate there is a definite possibility of being intercepted by armed AF aircraft. That's their job.

 

[Brad Z]

Ron, are there F16's on quick alert based nearby? An idea where and how long it would take them to get airborne and then do an intercept?

In the AIM I see "a foreign civil aircraft (eg Mexican, or Canadian) must give a position report at least one hour before ADIZ penetration". So how can we do this when Bimini is only about 3 minutes flying time from the ADIZ?

Stan

The first question above is most certainly classified information.

The second question is answered in 14 CFR 99.15. Notice the 'or':

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...48fb95136ee&node=14:2.0.1.3.14.1.9.9&rgn=div8

§99.15 Position reports.
(a) The pilot of an aircraft operating in or penetrating an ADIZ under IFR—

(1) In controlled airspace, must make the position reports required in §91.183; and

(2) In uncontrolled airspace, must make the position reports required in this section.

(b) No pilot may operate an aircraft penetrating an ADIZ under DVFR unless—

(1) The pilot reports to an appropriate aeronautical facility before penetration: the time, position, and altitude at which the aircraft passed the last reporting point before penetration and the estimated time of arrival over the next appropriate reporting point along the flight route;

(2) If there is no appropriate reporting point along the flight route, the pilot reports at least 15 minutes before penetration: The estimated time, position, and altitude at which the pilot will penetrate; or

(3) If the departure airport is within an ADIZ or so close to the ADIZ boundary that it prevents the pilot from complying with paragraphs (b)(1) or (2) of this section, the pilot must report immediately after departure: the time of departure, the altitude, and the estimated time of arrival over the first reporting point along the flight route.

(c) In addition to any other reports as ATC may require, no pilot in command of a foreign civil aircraft may enter the United States through an ADIZ unless that pilot makes the reports required in this section or reports the position of the aircraft when it is not less that one hour and not more that 2 hours average direct cruising distance from the United States.

[69 FR 16756, Mar. 30, 2004]

 

[pstan]

Excellent Brad, that explains it

Stan

 

[Velocity173]

Response times depend on alert status for that particular unit. Standard NATO QRA is 15 minutes. No one is going to take that long to get airborne. During 9/11 ANG aircraft were airborne in 6 minutes.

 

[poadeleted20]

Response times depend on alert status for that particular unit. Standard NATO QRA is 15 minutes.

That was the Victor (strike) alert standard when I was there in the 80's, but the Zulu (interceptor) standard was five minutes from hearing horn to brake release, and I don't think that's changed. Obviously, there is some command and control delay from when the bogey is detected until the horn sounds at the interceptor alert facility, so it may be somewhat more than five minutes from when you hit the ADIZ boundary to when an F-16 is rolling, but it's not going to be much longer. There is not quite the same risk launching a short-range fighter armed only with air-to-air weapons as in the strike world where you are launching a long-range bomber armed with nukes, so you can afford to push the "get airborne" button for a couple of F-16 with a lot less solid information and way less justification than to launch the bomber force.

 

[Velocity173]

That was the Victor (strike) alert standard when I was there in the 80's, but the Zulu (interceptor) standard was five minutes from hearing horn to brake release, and I don't think that's changed. Obviously, there is some command and control delay from when the bogey is detected until the horn sounds at the interceptor alert facility, so it may be somewhat more than five minutes from when you hit the ADIZ boundary to when an F-16 is rolling, but it's not going to be much longer. There is not quite the same risk launching a short-range fighter armed only with air-to-air weapons as in the strike world where you are launching a long-range bomber armed with nukes, so you can afford to push the "get airborne" button for a couple of F-16 with a lot less solid information and way less justification than to launch the bomber force.

Oh the good ole days of Cold War. Does (did) the 111 have an APU or is just a basic engine starter unit?

 

[pstan]

I was working approach and "Sealord" (FACSFAC) called and said something like "Beaufort, you talking to the 1200 code on the Beaufort XXX radial at XX miles.." I said no because if I was, he'd be on my discrete and not a 1200. Within minutes of hanging up, 2 F-16s were scrambled out of CHS.

So....if you had been "talking to him", and he had said he was a C172, and you had a flight plan on file for him, and you had given him a discrete code, would that now make him a friendly?

Because....maybe he's not a C172....maybe a beech 1900, and loaded with high explosives destined to cancel IFR later and proceed to his intended target.

Guess I'm wondering/asking why does atc "talking" (your words) to an aircraft now make him a friendly?

Not questioning your professionalism Velocity, just trying to understand the system. I appreciate your insight.

Stan

 

[Velocity173]

So....if you had been "talking to him", and he had said he was a C172, and you had a flight plan on file for him, and you had given him a discrete code, would that now make him a friendly?

Because....maybe he's not a C172....maybe a beech 1900, and loaded with high explosives destined to cancel IFR later and proceed to his intended target.

Guess I'm wondering/asking why does atc "talking" (your words) to an aircraft now make him a friendly?

Not questioning your professionalism Velocity, just trying to understand the system. I appreciate your insight.

Stan

I wouldn't have been talking to him in the first place. Sealord was just covering all their bases before scrambling aircraft. This particular aircraft was outside my airspace in the Warning Area. That's FACSFAC jurisdiction. Sealord covers the south east and Giant Killer further up the road. One of their many responsibilities is monitoring the ADIZ. If the aircraft in question actually called me, then I'd put him on Sealord. If that aircraft was going to an AOE, then they would coordinate with the next inland facility with a handoff. Since I had no AOE in my airspace, I would never have a need to talk to the aircraft.

 

[EvilEagle]

Response times depend on alert status for that particular unit. Standard NATO QRA is 15 minutes. No one is going to take that long to get airborne. During 9/11 ANG aircraft were airborne in 6 minutes.

I sit alert.. a lot. If you are coming back from the Bahamas and get scrambled on it will be F-15's, not the little toy airplanes. We normally sit 15 required, 10 desired, but that can be changed to 5 mins if needed based on intel or threat assesments.

As far as making the intercept happen, there's no way to answer that question without a lot more data.

 

[poadeleted20]

Oh the good ole days of Cold War. Does (did) the 111 have an APU or is just a basic engine starter unit?

No APU -- for Victor Alert, it was a cartridge start, with a GPU available to roll out and hook up if the cart start didn't take (but that was a time-eater).

BTW, I should have made clear that the alert launch times I quoted were for NATO in the European theater, where 15 minutes was enough time to get from crossing the border to "bombs away" well into NATO territory. OTOH, our early warning systems give a lot more warning of inbounds to our coastal ADIZ's, so a 10-15 minute reaction time is adequate for most situations.

 

[pstan]

"Originally Posted by pstan
So....if you had been "talking to him", and he had said he was a C172, and you had a flight plan on file for him, and you had given him a discrete code, would that now make him a friendly?

Because....maybe he's not a C172....maybe a beech 1900, and loaded with high explosives destined to cancel IFR later and proceed to his intended target.

Guess I'm wondering/asking why does atc "talking" (your words) to an aircraft now make him a friendly?

Not questioning your professionalism Velocity, just trying to understand the system. I appreciate your insight.

Stan"

Can anyone provide some insight on how the US ATC system/ US military handles this?

Stan

 

[Velocity173]

Can anyone provide some insight on how the US ATC system/ US military handles this?

Stan

Lol! Didn't we already go over this?

OK, it looks like you're wondering if some random yahoo can call up from beyond the ADIZ and get in? Unless they have a DVFR flight plan or an IFR flight plan activated in time and showing up where they filed to penetrate, they will get intercepted. Even if they air file, there's a good chance of getting intercepted.

If you are seriously interested in doing a flight into the ADIZ, AOPA has a good training program. Also the second attachment is what happens when you don't give proper ID before ADIZ penetration.

 

[Doggtyred]

Can anyone provide some insight on how the US ATC system/ US military handles this?

Stan

Why? What is your operational need to know?

What part of establishing contact prior to ADIZ penetration in vague?

The insight is, if you penetrate and are not identified, you will likely be intercepted. You might even be turned around. Or forced to land somewhere you dont want to. And a lot of very expensive resources will be expended to make it happen.

 

[Velocity173]

Why? What is your operational need to know?

What part of establishing contact prior to ADIZ penetration in vague?

The insight is, if you penetrate and are not identified, you will likely be intercepted. You might even be turned around. Or forced to land somewhere you dont want to. And a lot of very expensive resources will be expended to make it happen.

Based on his questions I have no doubt he's a Russian TU-95 pilot probing for way to penetrate the ADIZ in disguised as a GA pilot on vacation.

 

[pstan]

McFly, excellent info in those two attachments, gives a pretty good idea as to how the US military and FAA coordinate responses. Excellent reading thanks, I realize some of it may be dated. The Bahamas flying info is terrific too.


Stan

 

[JimNtexas]

Oh the good ole days of Cold War. Does (did) the 111 have an APU or is just a basic engine starter unit?

The F-111 didn't have an APU. It was started on the ground with either a ground power unit providing air, or with a 'start cart', a big shotgun shell thing that generated enough gas flow to turn the motor over.

I can't remember if the F-111 could cross-feed start with one running motor the way a T-38 could or not.

The F-4 needed two start carts.

I stood air defense alert in the F-4 exactly one time. It was kind of cool, ever since I can say I went down a fireman's pole as part of my job!

 

[poadeleted20]

I can't remember if the F-111 could cross-feed start with one running motor the way a T-38 could or not.

It could. IIRC, only the left engine had the cart capability -- you fired it, got the left one running, then did a cross-bleed to the right. For Victor Alert, IIRC, the crew chief had a second cart to stick in the unit in case the first didn't work, and then they'd drag over the GPU.

 

[Clark1961]

Based on his questions I have no doubt he's a Russian TU-95 pilot probing for way to penetrate the ADIZ in disguised as a GA pilot on vacation.

Happens all the time - remember that loose lips sink ships!

 

[jonnyjetprop]

This thread is bringing up visions of a Flight International Learjet trying to penetrate the ADIZ to check the reactions of our air defense forces. Rumor was that sometimes they made it in undetected.

 

[dans2992]

This thread is bringing up visions of a Flight International Learjet trying to penetrate the ADIZ to check the reactions of our air defense forces. Rumor was that sometimes they made it in undetected.

That would not be shocking, actually.

 

[EvilEagle]

This thread is bringing up visions of a Flight International Learjet trying to penetrate the ADIZ to check the reactions of our air defense forces. Rumor was that sometimes they made it in undetected.

There's a WHOLE lotta coastline and an ever-shrinking budget... Not a surprise.

 

[dans2992]

I was southbound through the ADIZ a year ago. Asked ATC what code they wanted me on.... "Oh, 1200 is fine...."...?!?!

 

[Captain]

Just the other day I launched from the Bahamas VFR and called Nassau approach to activate my IFR flight plan. They said they didn't have one and gave me to Miami Center.

I called Miami and they said they didn't have one either. Asked how I filed and I said 'over the Internet'. They gave me a squak code and eventually cleared me to my destination so I asked if we were 'okay'. She said as long as I had filed one 'somewhere' it'd be okay. I never saw any interceptors and never heard more about it.

 

[Velocity173]

I was southbound through the ADIZ a year ago. Asked ATC what code they wanted me on.... "Oh, 1200 is fine...."...?!?!

I imagine you originated from a point inside the ADIZ prior to penetrating. That's not a big deal.