Flying the T-38 Talon

[AggieMike88]

A very good blog article about flying the T38

http://www.warbirdalley.com/articles/t38pr.htm

Favorite lines from the article:

• Like most jets, "the faster it goes, the faster it goes faster."
• You look around, half-expecting to see... something. But all is calm and quiet. No warped stars. No Elvis sighting. But it's still special and rare. Sacred, in some way.

 

[AggieMike88]

My dad was an instructor pilot for T-38's "back in the day". And one of the first to accumulate over 2,000 hours in a T38.

 

[Old97]

I see them at ellington a lot. What sticks out to me is the angle of attack on approach- seems pretty high. Obviously they are having more fun than i do on a work day.

 

[Skates97]

I showed that article to my dad awhile back, he was an instructor pilot in T-38's for a number of years. He enjoyed the read, brought back a lot of great memories and got him telling me stories of his own that I hadn't heard before.

 

[mscard88]

I see them at ellington a lot. What sticks out to me is the angle of attack on approach- seems pretty high. Obviously they are having more fun than i do on a work day.

NASA has a fleet that the Astronauts tool around in there at Ellington.

I was a controller at a pilot training base and they'd simulate a engine failure right after takeoff. With full fuel they came down final for a PAR fast, fast like 180-190 kts. Quick PAR lol.

 

[OkieFlyer]

Great article. Thanks for sharing, Mike.

 

[N3368K]

I've had a number of friends who were current or former T-38 IPs. They all enjoyed it, but they also respected its ability to get a new pilot in trouble.

I was the token Army guy living in the middle of USAF IPs when I was in San Antonio at Ft Sam Houston.

 

[mscard88]

Mark: were you a GCA final controller?

Yes. It was a mobile unit, MPN-14, but we also had a full blown approach control.

 

[mscard88]

We wanted pilots to be quiet because we transmitted I think every 5 seconds and constantly issuing trend information, like on course, slightly left of course correcting, wheels should be down begin descent, at DH, etc. We could actually work a plane down to a zero-zero landing but it was advisories after DH.

When I was with a Combat Comm Group, we could plop down anywhere in the world with or without commercial power, and be on the air in about 22 hours offering a full blown approach control and PAR for precision landings.

Looked like this, surveillance antenna on the left, and the vertical box looking on the right contained the 2 PAR antennas, one for elevation (glide path) and azimuth (lateral).

 

[SkyDog58]

NASA has a fleet that the Astronauts tool around in there at Ellington.

I was a controller at a pilot training base and they'd simulate a engine failure right after takeoff. With full fuel they came down final for a PAR fast, fast like 180-190 kts. Quick PAR lol.

An officer/pilot I knew in the Army became a NASA mission specialist and flew a T-38 into Gulfstream at SAV when I worked there. I tried talking him into a ride but he just wouldn’t do it. Can’t blame him as I know he would get in trouble. But I have seen politicians, celebrities, and media pukes get free rides in such aircraft. I guess being a lifelong aviation professional and airplane buff as well as a veteran ain’t good enough.

 

[Velocity173]

Believe you’re asking about the lost commo spiel as well Bob? Varies by branch and then individual facility. PAR would be 5 secs on the interval and 15 secs on an ASR. A mouthful to get out when you’re busy with multiple GCAs.

5−10−4. LOST COMMUNICATIONS
When weather reports indicate that an aircraft will likely encounter IFR weather conditions during the approach, take the following action as soon as possible after establishing radar identification and radio communications (may be omitted after the first approach when successive approaches are made and the instructions remain the same):

PHRASEOLOGY−
IF NO TRANSMISSIONS ARE RECEIVED FOR (time interval) IN THE PATTERN OR FIVE/FIFTEEN SECONDS ON FINAL APPROACH, ATTEMPT CONTACT ON (frequency), AND

if the possibility exists,
PROCEED VFR. IF UNABLE:

if approved,
PROCEED WITH (nonradar approach), MAINTAIN (altitude) UNTIL ESTABLISHED ON/OVER FIX/ NAVAID/APPROACH PROCEDURE,

or
(alternative instructions).

 

[mscard88]

An officer/pilot I knew in the Army became a NASA mission specialist and flew a T-38 into Gulfstream at SAV when I worked there. I tried talking him into a ride but he just wouldn’t do it. Can’t blame him as I know he would get in trouble. But I have seen politicians, celebrities, and media pukes get free rides in such aircraft. I guess being a lifelong aviation professional and airplane buff as well as a veteran ain’t good enough.

Hey 20 years in the AF and I never got a ride. I was supposed to in an F4 but that didn't pan out, and I won some quarterly award and was supposed to go up in an F15 at Eglin, but I moved on to another assignment before that happened. I did get a ride in one of these once, an HH-43.

 

[SkyDog58]

Hey 20 years in the AF and I never got a ride. I was supposed to in an F4 but that didn't pan out, and I won some quarterly award and was supposed to go up in an F15 at Eglin, but I moved on to another assignment before that happened. I did get a ride in one of these once, an HH-43.

View attachment 63164

I should also mention that I worked on the NASA G-II at Gulfstream. Even more of a reason I should have gotten a ride.

But I can’t really complain. In the Army I flew on four different helicopter models, got to skydive out of three of them, and rappel out of two of them. So I had my share of fun on the taxpayer dime.

 

[simtech]

But I have seen politicians, celebrities, and media pukes get free rides in such aircraft. I guess being a lifelong aviation professional and airplane buff as well as a veteran ain’t good enough.

Yep I didn't fly in an Air Force plane until after I was no longer in the Air Force. Funny how that works! Even then I was still lucky, I started maintaining the T6 sims so I got a familiarization flight in a T6, only one in my shop to do it too. Best time ever in a plane, even if I was sick for 3 days, literally!

 

[Bill Watson]

In need a cigarette.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[SkyDog58]

Looks very Southern, wouldn't you say? Definitely a Clampet sorta thing.

Yep. In a Jethro Bodine sort of way.

 

[Velocity173]

A classic!

 

[Bobanna]

Yeah, flew in the Army but did ATC in the Marines. In the old days GCAs used to be the primary IMC recover in the military. Certain feeling of satisfaction in getting an aircraft down in bad weather.

A classic!

Damn straight, Jarhead! Thanks for all the info. Semper Fi
Bob

 

[SkyDog58]

Doesn't sound like ordinary dog-face maneuvers. Special Forces?

I’d tell you but then I’d have to kill you.

The crowd chants “Tell him. Tell him”.

Ok. I will.

I was a helicopter mechanic and in my units I got the chance to fly on the Huey, Blackhawk, and OH-58.

I went to Air Assault School at Ft Campbell and rappelled out of the Huey and Blackhawk.

I was in an Army sponsored jump club and jumped out of Hueys, Blackhawks and Chinooks.

So not special forces just in the right place at the right time a few times. It did make me feel sort of special though.

Oh, I’m feeling charitable so I’ll let you live.

 

[Flymy47]

Hey 20 years in the AF and I never got a ride. I was supposed to in an F4 but that didn't pan out, and I won some quarterly award and was supposed to go up in an F15 at Eglin, but I moved on to another assignment before that happened. I did get a ride in one of these once, an HH-43.

View attachment 63164

Those things scare even me!

 

[mscard88]

Looks very Southern, wouldn't you say? Definitely a Clampet sorta thing.

I was at Moody AFB when it was a pilot training base, and it also carries a fire retardant bottle to fight aircraft fires.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=precision+approach+radar

 

[Zeldman]

We wanted pilots to be quiet because we transmitted I think every 5 seconds and constantly issuing trend information, like on course, slightly left of course correcting, wheels should be down begin descent, at DH, etc. We could actually work a plane down to a zero-zero landing but it was advisories after DH.

I have done a few PAR approaches, all in Florida. I didn't think anyone was left alive that knew what they were..... I only went as low as the DH.

 

[Velocity173]

Good book for T-38 buffs is “NASA’s Northrop T-38” by Story Musgrave. Not many stories but outstanding photography. Think Story still has the most hours in T-38s.

 

[Banjo33]

Yeah, flew in the Army but did ATC in the Marines. In the old days GCAs used to be the primary IMC recovery in the military. Certain feeling of satisfaction in getting an aircraft down in bad weather.

Still is, if available. Nice to not have to expend as many brain cells when coming back from a training or combat sortie, just the get the plane safely on deck when the weather is crap.

Mscard mentioned 0/0 capability earlier. I had a GCA controller talk me down to within 10’ of runway centerline once in theater, during a sandstorm (basically 0/0 conditions), and I was emergency fuel (my last pass and no divert capability). Really good system; saved my bacon that day.

 

[Velocity173]

Still is, if available. Nice to not have to expend as many brain cells when coming back from a training or combat sortie, just the get the plane safely on deck when the weather is crap.

Mscard mentioned 0/0 capability earlier. I had a GCA controller talk me down to within 10’ of runway centerline once in theater, during a sandstorm (basically 0/0 conditions), and I was emergency fuel (my last pass and no divert capability). Really good system; saved my bacon that day.

Yeah, for some aircraft and some locations it still is. In the Marines, the Hornets at our base had either TACAN or GCA to get down. Obviously TACAN wasn’t going to cut it on some days so we had to talk down many a Hornet to mins.

In the Army I had at my disposal NDB, VOR, ILS, GPS and of course GCA. GCA was just another option.

 

[SkyDog58]

Thanks for the break, but I'm not sure if you're a dog-face or a leather-neck. Thanks for your service in any case.

Well, I was in the Army so I guess that makes me a dog face though my pup scoffs at that idea. He says I’m not nearly as good looking as he is.

No thanks necessary. It was just a job. I got paid and had some fun.

 

[jsstevens]

We wanted pilots to be quiet because we transmitted I think every 5 seconds and constantly issuing trend information, like on course, slightly left of course correcting, wheels should be down begin descent, at DH, etc. We could actually work a plane down to a zero-zero landing but it was advisories after DH.

When I was with a Combat Comm Group, we could plop down anywhere in the world with or without commercial power, and be on the air in about 22 hours offering a full blown approach control and PAR for precision landings.

Looked like this, surveillance antenna on the left, and the vertical box looking on the right contained the 2 PAR antennas, one for elevation (glide path) and azimuth (lateral).

View attachment 63161

In 1986 GE built an F-5 training facility outside Williams AFB in Tempe. I wrote all the instructor station software including a GCA display so the instructor could play ATC and talk the student through an approach. It looked remarkably like that except color. Which is cool because I never saw one before this thread, only had a couple of the pilots describe it to me.

 

[Velocity173]

Well, I was in the Army so I guess that makes me a dog face though my pup scoffs at that idea. He says I’m not nearly as good looking as he is.

No thanks necessary. It was just a job. I got paid and had some fun.

I actually was a “Dog Face Soldier” (3 ID). Such a strange song to sing in the AM.

 

[mscard88]

In 1986 GE built an F-5 training facility outside Williams AFB in Tempe. I wrote all the instructor station software including a GCA display so the instructor could play ATC and talk the student through an approach. It looked remarkably like that except color. Which is cool because I never saw one before this thread, only had a couple of the pilots describe it to me.

Yes that was just a pic I found, but ours weren't a color display either.

 

[mscard88]

Still is, if available. Nice to not have to expend as many brain cells when coming back from a training or combat sortie, just the get the plane safely on deck when the weather is crap.

Mscard mentioned 0/0 capability earlier. I had a GCA controller talk me down to within 10’ of runway centerline once in theater, during a sandstorm (basically 0/0 conditions), and I was emergency fuel (my last pass and no divert capability). Really good system; saved my bacon that day.

I have to say nothing more satisfying then to help a warrior get back on the ground safe. Funny thing, we had one final controller whose nickname was "Crash". A good controller though.

 

[jkgoblue]

Good book for T-38 buffs is “NASA’s Northrop T-38” by Story Musgrave. Not many stories but outstanding photography. Think Story still has the most hours in T-38s.

Yikes! That's one expensive book!

https://www.amazon.com/NASA-Northro...526741543&sr=8-4&keywords=NASA’s+Northrop+T-38

 

[X3 Skier]

I was at Moody AFB when it was a pilot training base, and it also carries a fire retardant bottle to fight aircraft fires.

View attachment 63167

My first “official” working TDY (after an orientation boondoggle to MacAir) was to Moody to work on corrosion issues on the J85 engine in the T-38. Never will forget flying into Moultrie-Thomasville “international” airport and watching the co-pilot of a Kamikaze Airlines (Southern) Martin 404 unload several cases of eggs. Only shut down the right engine and at the same time, out on the field, a C-130 was doing LAPES. After the egg express, they shut the door and off we went to Valdosta.

Cheers

 

[Velocity173]

Yikes! That's one expensive book!

https://www.amazon.com/NASA-Northro...526741543&sr=8-4&keywords=NASA’s+Northrop+T-38

Lol! I bought it 7 years ago new for $37. You can get some used ones on Amazon for around $333. Good book but not sure I’d even pay that for used.

 

[Pilawt]

Yikes! That's one expensive book!

https://www.amazon.com/NASA-Northro...526741543&sr=8-4&keywords=NASA’s+Northrop+T-38

Better order soon. Only three left in stock.

 

[kayoh190]

Lol! I bought it 7 years ago new for $37. You can get some used ones on Amazon for around $333. Good book but not sure I’d even pay that for used.

Yikes! It’d be cheaper for me to just fly to Texas and buy @hindsight2020 a bunch of beers in exchange for a few stories.

Well, that and the entertainment value in watching him lose his damned mind after I ask why he hasn’t gone to the airlines yet.

 

[hindsight2020]

it's an absolute grin inducing airplane to fly, but i still feel rather unimpressed with the fact our capitalization priorities are so corrupted that we cant find it in that immorally gargantuan defense budget, to field the T-X in a timely fashion and with cost sensitivity in mind.

im an '81 guy, so that means im training millenials in the same aircraft many of the posters' parents instructed in. Thats a failure in my book. not a distinction without difference either; these aircraft have killed some of my coworkers as a result of age related component failure. you guys have no idea how much water we turn into wine by the grace of God, in present circumstances. I can tell you i respect the hell out of the airplane, but i aproach every flight with the implicit conviction that the airplane is going to betray me. i dont have that problem in my recreational flying, even though its maintained by a lot less number of eyes. thats how strongly i feel about the risk i undertake by putting on the uniform. There are several historical component failure modes that will kill most everybody regardless of skill level, and it takes a preconceived decision to get out in order to survive it. if you try to pilot your way out of it you will die. im flying samples on their 3rd to 5th wing spar batch, and around 18-20k hours on the airframe. some are so bent you cant demo a no flap landing successfully without dropping a wing and having to give the student a pass on grading metrics based on that operational limitation. its incredibly embarrassing on a world stage basis.

the good news is that we now have had martin bakers for a while, just like in the t6, and that seat really puts me at ease in order to focus on my job. i wouldnt feel the same if i was still flying the old seat with the expired fly to fail components.

T-X cant come soon enough. id like to fly the baby viper before i retire. i cant think of a better consolation prize for having poor timing and luck when it was my turn to pick airframes after college. that said, im not leaving the 38. im closer to 40 now than i am to 30 and im still having a blast at my job. im not ready to give that up just yet. i count my blessings all things considered.

gave an atc junior enlisted an orientation ride last month. the kid was absolutely in awe and i could tell. those are the moments where im reminded of how lucky i am of being able to love what i do and proud of what I accomplish. we should all be so lucky.

 

[Zeldman]

In the parking lot at the airport in Gallup.



I didn't take the pictures.

 

[mscard88]

My first “official” working TDY (after an orientation boondoggle to MacAir) was to Moody to work on corrosion issues on the J85 engine in the T-38. Never will forget flying into Moultrie-Thomasville “international” airport and watching the co-pilot of a Kamikaze Airlines (Southern) Martin 404 unload several cases of eggs. Only shut down the right engine and at the same time, out on the field, a C-130 was doing LAPES. After the egg express, they shut the door and off we went to Valdosta.

Cheers

That's so funny, but I have a similar memory of flying to Valdosta and Moody. ATL to Albany, then Moultrie, and finally Valdosta late at night. In a 404 too, in 1968. Later Southern merged with North Central then NW, and a couple former Southern execs started ASA, who I flew for 24 years. They made a fortune with that airline.

 

[Velocity173]

it's an absolute grin inducing airplane to fly, but i still feel rather unimpressed with the fact our capitalization priorities are so corrupted that we cant find it in that immorally gargantuan defense budget, to field the T-X in a timely fashion and with cost sensitivity in mind.

im an '81 guy, so that means im training millenials in the same aircraft many of the posters' parents instructed in. Thats a failure in my book. not a distinction without difference either; these aircraft have killed some of my coworkers as a result of age related component failure. you guys have no idea how much water we turn into wine by the grace of God, in present circumstances. I can tell you i respect the hell out of the airplane, but i aproach every flight with the implicit conviction that the airplane is going to betray me. i dont have that problem in my recreational flying, even though its maintained by a lot less number of eyes. thats how strongly i feel about the risk i undertake by putting on the uniform. There are several historical component failure modes that will kill most everybody regardless of skill level, and it takes a preconceived decision to get out in order to survive it. if you try to pilot your way out of it you will die. im flying samples on their 3rd to 5th wing spar batch, and around 18-20k hours on the airframe. some are so bent you cant demo a no flap landing successfully without dropping a wing and having to give the student a pass on grading metrics based on that operational limitation. its incredibly embarrassing on a world stage basis.

the good news is that we now have had martin bakers for a while, just like in the t6, and that seat really puts me at ease in order to focus on my job. i wouldnt feel the same if i was still flying the old seat with the expired fly to fail components.

T-X cant come soon enough. id like to fly the baby viper before i retire. i cant think of a better consolation prize for having poor timing and luck when it was my turn to pick airframes after college. that said, im not leaving the 38. im closer to 40 now than i am to 30 and im still having a blast at my job. im not ready to give that up just yet. i count my blessings all things considered.

gave an atc junior enlisted an orientation ride last month. the kid was absolutely in awe and i could tell. those are the moments where im reminded of how lucky i am of being able to love what i do and proud of what I accomplish. we should all be so lucky.

I remember when my uncle worked on those things at Laughlin, he couldn’t believe that they were still flying. That was 18 years ago!

Any T-X version you’d rather see or you all just glad to get anything new to replace the T-38?