Flying Risk & Your Young Family

Unregistered said:
Getting my certificate is something I've wanted to do for my entire life. I'm to the point in my mid 30s where I make a decent living and could afford to start the training. My wife is on-board with it, but she asked me this: If we have a baby by this time next year, would I want to continue to fly?

It's a great question I am struggling with. My dad passed away when I was young, so I know what it's like to grow up without a father. Insurance will take care of their needs, but you can't replace a parent. I also realize you can't eliminate all risk from life.

Curious...what some of you guys with young families have thought on this topic? How do you balance the risk over your passion for aviation?
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If you like a hobby, you shouldn't give it up because your spouse or kids do not want you to do it. That can cause bigger problems between you and them. For yourself, you need to provide for your family anyways should something happen to you; especially if you are the primary breadwinner. Buy a term life policy through your work or your agent. Convert as much of that term to a whole life. Start a 401k and a salary savings program. Save all the nickels you can. Write a will and keep it up to date.
There are enough dangers in life that if you worry about them, you'll never get out of bed. Be safe by taking extra training. Do the WINGS program annually.
Enjoy the flying.
 
TMetzinger said:
I have adequate insurance so that if I die for any reason my family is OK financially.

As for taking my child flying... I take her driving, and in my opinion the risks are greater in flying than driving, but I'm able to manage the flying risks better than the driving risks, because nearly all likely causes of an aviation accident are under my control. Not so in driving.
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Now that's my kind of thinking, Tim.

For the OP: Yes, we stand a greater risk statistically when we aviate, but that's as a group. We as individual pilots mitigate our risk by how we approach the process. A new pilot CAN change the risk factor in his/her favor by their methodology.

A low time pilot flying his family?

1) Onerous, but use the PAVE checklist http://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...on/pilot_handbook/media/phak - chapter 17.pdf.
Have your personal minimums set in stone and don't deviate. Work with an instructor to change these over time, but do it with a second, seasoned & informed opinion.

2) Have an isolation mode on your audio panel. Kids will talk during your high workload times.

3) Generate a partnership with a professional pilot CFI or CFII -- one that has retired from double digit thousands of hours flying passengers for a living -- and do BFR's annually with him/her. Set up a recurrent training program where they, not you, evaluate your performance. Most of us are not as good as we think (we can't all be above average!).

4) Consider getting your IFR ticket for its safety margin. Look at the accident statistics and you'll see what I'm talking about!

5) Approach flying as your second profession. It might sound harsh, but when flying passengers, either do it right or don't do it at all. Read pertinent pubs like Aviation Safety, FAA Safety Briefing, and others that point out the most common pitfalls so you can avoid them.

All that said, welcome to the incredible world of general aviation! It's an amazing group of people and if you stick with it, the rewards are magnificent.

Safe flying,
J
 
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My kids are grown, but I do think about it. Frankly, I get more nervous when my son flies solo as part of hi PPL training.
 
You can't opt out of a statiscal group because you don't like the numbers. Thinking you can is one of those hazardous attitudes the ADM people are always going on about.

ChesapeakeJohnny said:
Now that's my kind of thinking, Tim.

For the OP: Yes, we stand a greater risk statistically when we aviate, but that's as a group. We as individual pilots mitigate our risk by how we approach the process. A new pilot CAN change the risk factor in his/her favor by their methodology.

A low time pilot flying his family?

1) Onerous, but use the PAVE checklist http://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...on/pilot_handbook/media/phak - chapter 17.pdf.
Have your personal minimums set in stone and don't deviate. Work with an instructor to change these over time, but do it with a second, seasoned & informed opinion.

2) Have an isolation mode on your audio panel. Kids will talk during your high workload times.

3) Generate a partnership with a professional pilot CFI or CFII -- one that has retired from double digit thousands of hours flying passengers for a living -- and do BFR's annually with him/her. Set up a recurrent training program where they, not you, evaluate your performance. Most of us are not as good as we think (we can't all be above average!).

4) Consider getting your IFR ticket for its safety margin. Look at the accident statistics and you'll see what I'm talking about!

5) Approach flying as your second profession. It might sound harsh, but when flying passengers, either do it right or don't do it at all. Read pertinent pubs like Aviation Safety, FAA Safety Briefing, and others that point out the most common pitfalls so you can avoid them.

All that said, welcome to the incredible world of general aviation! It's an amazing group of people and if you stick with it, the rewards are magnificent.

Safe flying,
J
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ClimbnSink said:
You can't opt out of a statiscal group because you don't like the numbers. Thinking you can is one of those hazardous attitudes the ADM people are always going on about.
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I guess the military and airlines should stop their risk mitigation programs, then... :)

Just kidding.

What I'm talking about is systematically lessening the risk. Clearly we can't get rid of all risk, but having a framework of decision making is better than "winging it." I'm not advocating the "it won't happen to me" attitude; just saying that a casual approach to flying is riskier than taking it seriously, having a defined methodology and sticking to personal minimums with the assistance of a professional.

It seems pretty clear by the accident reports that certain categories of flight behaviors expand the risk potential.
 
Sure don't fly drunk, easy enough and you are now out of a few % of accidents. All those others happen to people identical to you. We just **** on the dead unless someone here knows them. Then we puzzle over how could a good pilot be so dumb and quickly drop the subject lest we think about it too much. We are all those dumb dead pilots. Only way out of the odds is to quit flying.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Sure don't fly drunk, easy enough and you are now out of a few % of accidents. All those others happen to people identical to you. We just **** on the dead unless someone here knows them. Then we puzzle over how could a good pilot be so dumb and quickly drop the subject lest we think about it too much. We are all those dumb dead pilots. Only way out of the odds is to quit flying.
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Clearly you don't understand that statistics describe groups, and can predict groups, but do not dictate results for individuals.
 
A lot of good posts and a few missed marks.

The OPs wife asked a simple question, to which he has been brooding over answering for himself. not enough posted to know if she had an ulterior motive of suggesting the risk was higher than the reward.

The OP is dealing with an area of uncertainty in his skill and it gives uncertainty in his risk tolerance. Fortunately for him, the "what if " question as posed "year from now" hasn't yet arrived and so he has time to discover his area of unknowingness and deal with it before his worry becomes a reality and an answer for himself first becomes a requirement. It may or may not be trivial if the wife wants to know the answer. After having a yes/ no answer, then discussion can begin and they can make a decision about flying as a husband wife couple (joint risk tolerance).

My wife married a sport biker. Part of my dating checklist was her feelings toward my enjoyment activities and she passed with flying colors. Later, as the relationship progressed we talked about my desire to fly. She helped me to reach the solid decision to put my money where my mouth was and do it and she happened to be there the day of my 1st solo, a secret desire of mine.

Because of her non-pushiness my desires for sport riding are waning and we both know that the end is nigh, but she has never said "don't do ...."

With that said, it may be helpful to know (there's a thread on here about this) that experienced pilots went through the same feelings of uncertainty that you're feeling. They found ways to get through it. One instructor with well excess of 10,000 hours said he didn't feel confident in his landings until about is 5,000th landing! And I had been beating myself up with about a hundred or so landings.

Get out there. Gather more stories. Some will be good, some horrific, but they will all add to your storehouse of knowledge - and that is always good.
 
Jaybird180 said:
With that said, it may be helpful to know (there's a thread on here about this) that experienced pilots went through the same feelings of uncertainty that you're feeling. They found ways to get through it. One instructor with well excess of 10,000 hours said he didn't feel confident in his landings until about is 5,000th landing! And I had been beating myself up with about a hundred or so landings.

Get out there. Gather more stories. Some will be good, some horrific, but they will all add to your storehouse of knowledge - and that is always good.
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Not everybody lives long enough to become an experienced pilot, if one does make it that far being an experienced pilot still doesn't exempt you from performing stupid pilot tricks and gosh darn bad luck.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Sure don't fly drunk, easy enough and you are now out of a few % of accidents. All those others happen to people identical to you. We just **** on the dead unless someone here knows them. Then we puzzle over how could a good pilot be so dumb and quickly drop the subject lest we think about it too much. We are all those dumb dead pilots. Only way out of the odds is to quit flying.
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This seems hyperbolic. There are many circumstances of aviation accidents that are related to egregious pilot error. That is the whole point of risk discussions -- raising awareness of the high risk behaviors in order to avoid those same errors.

I do not agree that most pilots "drop the subject." Hence, our discussion here.

OP was contemplating the risks inherent with aviation. There are ways to lessen the risk. Keep studying, keep learning, keep applying the lessons learned.

J
 
ChesapeakeJohnny said:
This seems hyperbolic. There are many circumstances of aviation accidents that are related to egregious pilot error. That is the whole point of risk discussions -- raising awareness of the high risk behaviors in order to avoid those same errors.

I do not agree that most pilots "drop the subject." Hence, our discussion here.

OP was contemplating the risks inherent with aviation. There are ways to lessen the risk. Keep studying, keep learning, keep applying the lessons learned.

J
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The keep studying, keep learning, we are so smart we discuss aviation online pilots die just the same. Funny one of the ADM awareness of high risk behaviors is 'it won't happen to me.' I'm going to take up hard drugs, but I'm going to be smart and only use clean needles and quality smack, carefully measured doses and not operate my backhoe when high. As such all that drug bad outcome stuff doesn't apply to me.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Not everybody lives long enough to become an experienced pilot, if one does make it that far being an experienced pilot still doesn't exempt you from performing stupid pilot tricks and gosh darn bad luck.
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Lazy analysis. Aviation suffers from high attrition not from death, but from quitting. That is what stops pilots from become highly experienced. We are all at higher risk here than from death.
 
Eliminate all but residual risk and GA becomes much "safer":
* Be EXTRA conservative on weather
* Use SOP's ALWAYS (e.g., preflights, thorough ones, before every flight...including when you stop for the Hamburger)
* Use Flight Following ALWAYS unless they are too busy; I even use them when I'm doing local practice
* Get traffic
* Preplan your cross countries thoroughly...right down to looking at the runway on Google Maps for emergency landing spots
* Buy a back-up portable radio
* Do your checklists verbally even when flying alone
* Have a back-up or two for navigation (e.g., 2 iPad's...old ones cheap on EBAY)
* Manage your fuel religiously

I'm just betting that if you do the above, your risk level is reduced by 90% or more.

Get into these habits, and then enjoy!


:
 
VWGhiaBob said:
* Use Flight Following ALWAYS unless they are too busy; I even use them when I'm doing local practice
:
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Always wondered can you get flight following if you are going nowhere.
"Regional Approach, 6PC request Flight following. I will be in this Area practicing maneuvers for the next half hour"

Can you do that?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Always wondered can you get flight following if you are going nowhere.
"Regional Approach, 6PC request Flight following. I will be in this Area practicing maneuvers for the next half hour"

Can you do that?
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Yes. Works best if you ask for it on your way from the airport.

"Potomac Approach, N372SE is 5 miles north of Leesburg, 2500, we'll be heading to the practice area north of Point of Rocks, request flight following."
 
I'm interested in the term "residual risk." Is that a technical or quantifiable term?

I heard a radio interview a couple of weeks ago about a man who wrote a book about his experience of flying his plane, with his wife and daughter as passengers, into a mountain. He spoke freely about how he thought, during the leadup to the crash, that he was making very responsible and conservative decisions about the flight, but later (after the crash) realized he had been, his words, "an idiot" to make some of those very decisions. It sounded to me, from the scenario given, that they were extremely lucky to have survived.

Some of the threads about experiences and lessons learned on this forum reflect real lessons learned in hindsight, by people you would certainly not call "idiots."

It's a very important issue, flying and family, but subjective and very individual to the people and families involved. In our experience, most of the people we know at EAA and in general who currently fly, took it up seriously in later life when the family was grown. It happens that a grandchild or two will occasionally show some interest, which brings up the issue again, though.

VWGhiaBob said:
Eliminate all but residual risk and GA becomes much "safer":
* Be EXTRA conservative on weather
* Use SOP's ALWAYS (e.g., preflights, thorough ones, before every flight...including when you stop for the Hamburger)
* Use Flight Following ALWAYS unless they are too busy; I even use them when I'm doing local practice
* Get traffic
* Preplan your cross countries thoroughly...right down to looking at the runway on Google Maps for emergency landing spots
* Buy a back-up portable radio
* Do your checklists verbally even when flying alone
* Have a back-up or two for navigation (e.g., 2 iPad's...old ones cheap on EBAY)
* Manage your fuel religiously

I'm just betting that if you do the above, your risk level is reduced by 90% or more.

Get into these habits, and then enjoy!


:
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Becky said:
I'm interested in the term "residual risk." Is that a technical or quantifiable term?
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In the world of Safety Management Systems, residual risk is the risk that remains when you have applied all of the controls/mitigations that make practical sense in order to address identified hazards. It does not include unanticipated hazards, as they would not have existing controls.

Residual risk essentially represents the risk you deem you are willing to accept. It can be quantifiable through an SMS program, but that requires a rather more robust analysis than most people are going to conduct as a matter of personal habit.
 
Becky said:
I'm interested in the term "residual risk." Is that a technical or quantifiable term?

I heard a radio interview a couple of weeks ago about a man who wrote a book about his experience of flying his plane, with his wife and daughter as passengers, into a mountain. He spoke freely about how he thought, during the leadup to the crash, that he was making very responsible and conservative decisions about the flight, but later (after the crash) realized he had been, his words, "an idiot" to make some of those very decisions. It sounded to me, from the scenario given, that they were extremely lucky to have survived.

Some of the threads about experiences and lessons learned on this forum reflect real lessons learned in hindsight, by people you would certainly not call "idiots."

It's a very important issue, flying and family, but subjective and very individual to the people and families involved. In our experience, most of the people we know at EAA and in general who currently fly, took it up seriously in later life when the family was grown. It happens that a grandchild or two will occasionally show some interest, which brings up the issue again, though.
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It's good to see people freely talk about their mistakes so that others will learn.

Part of good decision making is actually understanding what constitutes a good decision. Some very smart people make some very basic errors. Some of that has to do with a different sort of intelligence that I believe is required for flying, but a lot of it also has to do with experience (or lack thereof).
 
Anyone notice the flight is a beating when you have your family?
I flew about 3 hours today with the wife and kids. Normally that would be a bit of work but I guess the stress of knowing they are there dependent on me is a lot.

Landed and I feel like I have been pushed down a flight of stairs. I am 130 hours in so still new and hoping at some point flying my kids won't add so much more mental pressure.

Was a great vacation but have never been so glad to be on the ground.
Exhausted.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Anyone notice the flight is a beating when you have your family?
I flew about 3 hours today with the wife and kids. Normally that would be a bit of work but I guess the stress of knowing they are there dependent on me is a lot.

Landed and I feel like I have been pushed down a flight of stairs. I am 130 hours in so still new and hoping at some point flying my kids won't add so much more mental pressure.

Was a great vacation but have never been so glad to be on the ground.
Exhausted.
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How were they behaved? For me that can be the biggest stressor. Kiddo doesn't always want to sit in his seat (can you blame him?) and that's more of a distraction. If he sleeps and things are peaceful, it's wonderful. If he's being difficult then I find myself pushing the power up a little.
 
I don't put my entire immediate family in one aircraft privately or commercial.

Aside from all the emotional pain yada yada, it would be a financial disaster.

Which brings up a good point if it has not been addressed here already. Get your will or Trusts or whatever in order. Your family will thank you or cuss you later.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
How were they behaved? For me that can be the biggest stressor. Kiddo doesn't always want to sit in his seat (can you blame him?) and that's more of a distraction. If he sleeps and things are peaceful, it's wonderful. If he's being difficult then I find myself pushing the power up a little.
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It was tough. We had a iPad and small DVD player but we flew through lunch. They got hungry, and we had snacks but they get bored quicker than I do. They love to talk on the mic and I have to shush them but that was not the issue. Those are normal stressors.

I just kept thinking "what if" the whole flight which I had stopped doing for awhile. but it got to me a bit today.

Everything that stressed me out was all in my head. The kids were really good.

Again, I am new pilot and I just had a few of those "What do I think I am doing" moments.

The flight war perfect. calm winds the whole way and no rough spots. just the awareness of what I had "chosen" for them.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
It was tough. We had a iPad and small DVD player but we flew through lunch. They got hungry, and we had snacks but they get bored quicker than I do. They love to talk on the mic and I have to shush them but that was not the issue. Those are normal stressors.
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It's your own plane, right ? Replace your audio panel with one that has a crew-isolate feature. I had my 4 year old doing 'the rasberries' while I was trying to read back a SFRA radar identification :D . I guess the feedback through the intercom really entertained her.

- More movies on the ipad
- more snacks
- shorter legs
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I just kept thinking "what if" the whole flight which I had stopped doing for awhile. but it got to me a bit today.

Everything that stressed me out was all in my head. The kids were really good.

Again, I am new pilot and I just had a few of those "What do I think I am doing" moments.
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It sounds like that's mostly jitters. It does get somewhat better with time. It also comes down to a mental state. Remember, you can die on the drive to work, or you might have a heart attack. It's good to remember this, but then do what you can to mitigate the risk and move on. Stress will kill you faster than anything if you let it.
 
6PC,

I was nervous about flying passengers at your experience level too. I understand that it gets better for most folks with time. For me however it went away all at once after successfully managing an inflight emergency. Suddenly I knew I could handle it with a calm head.

I still get just a little pull of apprehension, but only when things aren't going the way they should. It is typically confined to weather worse than I was expecting. I figure the day that nothing scares me about flying is the day I need to hang it up as that will be the day I get too complacent.
 
Relatively new pilot here with 5 and 4 year old boys. I'm currently building cross country time for instrument...wife is very supportive. I think the key is to know your limitations and stick to them no questions asked. Gives the wife comfort that I'm not just a cowboy up in the air putting them in danger. For example, if the boys aren't in good moods and project to causing fuss in the air then we punt the flight for the day. My wife can only do so much from the right seat to calm down the boys. Other than stuff like that the only situation I have decided to refrain from flying the family is xc night flying.

I have found my boys are too young to comfortably fly more than 3 hours. Aside from that, flying with the family has proven to be no more stressful than flying solo. I guess that does vary by each pilot's ability to focus, multi-task and manage the airplane.
 
Notsofast said:
Relatively new pilot here with 5 and 4 year old boys. I'm currently building cross country time for instrument...wife is very supportive. I think the key is to know your limitations and stick to them no questions asked. Gives the wife comfort that I'm not just a cowboy up in the air putting them in danger. For example, if the boys aren't in good moods and project to causing fuss in the air then we punt the flight for the day. My wife can only do so much from the right seat to calm down the boys. Other than stuff like that the only situation I have decided to refrain from flying the family is xc night flying.

I have found my boys are too young to comfortably fly more than 3 hours. Aside from that, flying with the family has proven to be no more stressful than flying solo. I guess that does vary by each pilot's ability to focus, multi-task and manage the airplane.
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Night flying cures insomnia for anyone that doesn't occupy the front left seat.
 
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