Flying clubs questions

FutureFly

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FutureFly
Does anyone have experience with being a member of a flying club? After researching the rental rate prices they seem comparable to renting from a school. Is the advantage of joining one of the these flying clubs the fact you have a better change for rental availability given students rent the majority at a school?are there any other benefits to joining flying clubs these days?
 
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It depends on the club. Some are more aimed at people that want to take an airplane and go somewhere for a few days. Others are more aimed at local flying.

What are you trying to accomplish with the club, versus renting?
 
It depends on the club. Some are more aimed at people that want to take an airplane and go somewhere for a few days. Others are more aimed at local flying.

What are you trying to accomplish with the club, versus renting?

thought of it as a way once I start and complete private pilot license, I could hopefully have better rental availability with a club, meet some fellow pilots and possibly fly together every so often, possibly have club availablity to rent an airplane for a few days to fly somewhere different new further away.
 
are there any other benefits to joining flying clubs these days?

Depends on the club, but in addition to availability, no daily minimums and access to better planes that have not been beaten up by students...
 
I wonder if for those clubs that have their own internal CFIs, if availability would be better than a flight school elsewhere and also rents planes out
 
Only beaten up by members. Slightly less abuse.
 
Other than the social aspect, availability to take it somewhere overnight or multiple days is usually the benefit. Or, flying something other than a C172. If it’s a newly purchased plane or you live in a high cost of living (for aviation) location, the hourly rates might be on par with renting. But, there are clubs with rates more favorable than renting. Tip: Think of it as “using the club plane” instead of “renting” (and abusing), and the club will be better off.
 
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Clubs usually charge by tach time, while schools usually charge by Hobbs time-though I’m sure there are exceptions to both.

Tach time saves you a few percent on longer flights up to maybe 30% when doing pattern work, so it is important to note how the time is charged.
 
My club charges based on Hobbs, I think it just depends what location works for you and what atmosphere works for you. In my opinion, a real club has a social aspect, whereas a school puppy mill is get in and get out sorta atmosphere (not my cup of tea).

I found that some schools are weird about their scheduling whereas my club gives you full access on day 1 to schedule as you please.
 
Does anyone have experience with being a member of a flying club? After researching the rental rate prices they seem comparable to renting from a school. Is the advantage of joining one of the these flying clubs the fact you have a better change for rental availability given students rent the majority at a school?are there any other benefits to joining flying clubs these days?

I was a member of a club for 14 years, from 2004-2018, and I was on the board of directors for most of that. It was always a three-airplane, 30-member club, but at the beginning it was two Archers and a 182, at the end it was a newer and much nicer Archer, an R182 (RG), and a G1000 DA40. That is still their fleet now, but the Archer is about to go in for a very nice glass panel upgrade.

Let me start by saying, there are many things that people call "clubs" and they are different. Some have one plane, some have over 40!* Some are nothing more than block time schemes at a flight school or FBO, some are a guy who owns an airplane who wants to make a buck, some are really just an aircraft shared ownership deal, and some are "real" clubs with their own airplanes, and you may or may not actually own a part of them. For what it's worth, the club I was in is an equity club, where 30 members all own shares in the corporation which in turn owns the airplanes.

When I joined the club, it was $120/mo, when I left it was $180/mo but we had much newer nicer airplanes. In both cases there was a "flying credit", $40/mo at the beginning, $50/mo at the end - That much flying time was counted in your dues. It was enough to at least get out and go around the pattern a few times, but if you didn't use it in a particular month you lost it. It was there to encourage currency and proficiency. We also billed everything by tach time (not Hobbs) and gave people credit for buying cheap fuel when they were away from base. Hourly costs were baked into hourly rates, and fixed costs into the monthly dues.

Throughout, as long as you flew about 4 hours a month on average, you came out ahead financially compared to renting, and you were in MUCH nicer airplanes than were available for rent.

What it did for me as a pilot, though, was priceless. Availability was fantastic, I think there was only one time in 14 years where I wanted to go fly but no airplanes were available. I was also able to take the planes on trips, the longest of which was 19 days. I flew club planes from our Wisconsin base to the east coast, west coast, and gulf coast. I landed at the highest and lowest airports in the US. I landed on pavement, grass, and gravel. I took a mountain & backcountry flying course. I landed in about 35 states. All of that experience made me a FAR better pilot - Getting well away from your home base is the best way to learn without a CFI aboard. And there were an awful lot of amazing adventures along the way.

And yes, there is a social aspect to clubs as well, some more so than others.

Finally, being on the board allowed me to learn an awful lot about aircraft ownership before I ever had my own airplane. I stayed in the club and on the board for another 6 years afterwards anyway, just to give back and help others have the great experience I had in the club.

Yes, I highly recommend joining a club, if it's the right club for you. Find a club that has planes you want to fly (and hopefully some you can grow into) and has rates you can afford. Ask to see their flight schedule to gauge availability - 10 members per plane works well when you have three planes, but not as well with a single plane - And I know of clubs with one airplane and 40+ members, but often clubs like that have low dues and lots of members that rarely, if ever, fly and are merely there for the social aspects. Ask about their finances, and what happens if a plane crashes, or an engine needs an overhaul, or the club goes belly up. Ask whether it's an equity club. Ask to see their bylaws and SOPs. Ask what the process is for joining, and for leaving! And if it all sounds generally good to you, go for it!


* True story. The two biggest clubs I know of have 41 (Aspen Flying Club) and 57 (West Valley Flying Club).
 
I’ve been in clubs with 7AC. $4/hr WET!! PA-12 , 150’s 172’s,Mooney 20A, Cherokees, Archers and Super Cubs.

2 - MIL & 2 - CIV

ALL were different with policies.

Preceding post covered items.
 
Just watch out for schools that try to sell themselves as clubs. The main difference I have seen is school planes are usually beat into the ground. A legit club usually has more care and attention into their planes.
 
You can easily tell the difference between a club and a business because the club is run by members. If you can join but will never be able to run the club, it’s a business.

A flying club can be great. We have 15 aircraft from 152s to Mooneys and around 200 flying members, wet rates 86-183 right now. The schedule is tight two weeks out, but I could get a plane today for a few hours if I wanted or still get one to fly to Oshkosh.
 
I wonder if for those clubs that have their own internal CFIs, if availability would be better than a flight school elsewhere and also rents planes out
Like all the other questions, it depends on the club.

There are two clubs at my home base. Both are definitely member-run 501(c)(7) operations, not commercial flight schools that use "club" in their name.

One has been around more than 50 years. About a dozen airplanes covering 4 different make/models, 400 members (about half actively fly), and 20 member/instructors. It does training from student through ATP. If you join today, expect to wait months to be connected with an instructor, even for a checkout.

The other is about 5 years old. Three airplanes, all DA40, about 30 members, 3 member/instructors. Need to already be a private pilot but will train for advanced certificates and ratings. Join today and you'll likely be checked out by the end of next week.
 
Lots of good info here. I've on my third club.

The first had 5 great planes and 62 members including high performance and recreational but culturally it was very much a "if you haven't been here 10 years you're not really part of the club" and even though I was on the board, the club was run by the elder members as an underground board. All the planes went to Oshkosh and no you're not on the list. It was impossible to schedule a plane for a weekend trip in the summer without 6 months planning and you were only allowed to have one trip on the books. I don't remember the costs per plane but the buy in was $1K and refundable. All maint was done by the FBO.

The 2nd was an equity club with 10 of us and a very nice Dynon HDX / Avidne 540 glass panel Archer. Much more laid back. Only three of us flew much so the plane was often available. The cost was low, we got to know each other. Did our own maint to the limits allowed. If we hadn't moved I'd still be very happy being a member. It was $205/month and $95 / Hour with a $1K refundable buy-in.

New club seems very much like the 2nd, although the plane gets used a bit more. Even less formal than the previous clubs but seems to work well. All maint is done by the FBO. We have a nicely equipped Archer (dual G5's, GFC500, WAAS GPS) and it's $130 a month and $90 / hour wet. $3500 (non-refundable) buy in.

I'm saying, much like a job, culture of the club is almost as important as the plane and costs. All had instructors as members.
 
Does anyone have experience with being a member of a flying club? After researching the rental rate prices they seem comparable to renting from a school. Is the advantage of joining one of the these flying clubs the fact you have a better change for rental availability given students rent the majority at a school?are there any other benefits to joining flying clubs these days?
Sometimes cheaper. Hourly rates usually are. If you fly often this can save you money. If you don’t, the Monthly dues will offset that advantage.
 
The Longhorn Flying Club was a very large organization. Possibly the biggest

Flying Club in the wold at the time. Centered in Austin Tx but multiple locations

in Tx and Ok. All red and white Cessnas.
 
Where are you? Maybe someone here knows about or is maybe a member of a club near you
Located Central Florida, I know we have the Orlando Christian Flying Club, Orlando Sanford Flying Club, Kiss the Sun Flying club in Kissimmee and Orlando Areo Flying Clubs within the central Florida Area.
 
I wonder if for those clubs that have their own internal CFIs, if availability would be better than a flight school elsewhere and also rents planes out

Generally, non profit clubs are not required to do 100 inspections. If they restrict CFI availability to member CFIs or an approved list, they lose that option.
 
Generally, non profit clubs are not required to do 100 inspections. If they restrict CFI availability to member CFIs or an approved list, they lose that option.
Which is interesting since the FAA's Airport Compliance Manual talks about a requirement that CFIs teaching club members be club members themselves. It always struck me facially (I have not even tried to go below the surface) as an interesting dichotomy.

Flying clubs may forego 100 hour inspections if the student can hire anyone.
The student shouldn't be able to hire anyone.

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I wonder if for those clubs that have their own internal CFIs, if availability would be better than a flight school elsewhere and also rents planes out

It depends on the club. How many members per aircraft. How many are active. How many fly more that an hour every so often or $100 burger run. Two many variables.

Look at the local clubs and ask questions.

Most flight schools require so many hours per day away, that their trainers are seldom used for overnight or longer XC.
 
Sorry, if there is only one airplane, that is not a club, it is a partnership. :D

I was a member of one club that had 2x C-172 and a Comanche 250. It worked OK most times. Minimal hours per day away. But one trip I wanted to take, both C-172 were booked off and on during the week, but no overlap. They would not reschedule everyone into one plane so I could take the other one. And the trip would have been more hours than either one was flying that week.

A friend was in a partnership in a Cherokee 180D. There were 3 partners. The buy in with 1/3 the cost of the plane, and you could sell your share with the other partners having the right of refusal of the person buying (to avoid Aholes). Each partner had the plane from Monday AM to Monday AM. If someone else wanted to fly, they would contact the partner who "owned" the plane that week and asked. If you wanted to go over or start early on your week, you asked. In most cases, the other partner was fine. Only one time was he not able to get the plane for a trip. All bills were split 3 ways.

Eventually, the other two partners stopped flying. One lost his medical, and I forget what happened to the other. But they wanted to keep their share. So suddenly, he had the airplane all for himself, but only had to pay 1/3 the costs, other than fuel.
 
Generally, non profit clubs are not required to do 100 inspections. If they restrict CFI availability to member CFIs or an approved list, they lose that option.

Got a reference? I was under the impression it was more about who was paying who. If the "club" accepts the payment and then pays the CFI, 100 hours are required. If the student arranges for the CFI on their own, and pays them directly, not so.

I ask because at one point we decided to require prior approval of CFIs after an incident with one CFI. Student could still theoretically choose whoever, but we did ask for prior approval so that we could ensure that the CFI actually had a copy of the POH and such.
 
Club Currency requirements may differ from FAA.

Also may be for specific model.

ie. Cherokee 140 is not currency in an Archer.
 
Which is interesting since the FAA's Airport Compliance Manual talks about a requirement that CFIs teaching club members be club members themselves. It always struck me facially (I have not even tried to go below the surface) as an interesting dichotomy.

Flying clubs may forego 100 hour inspections if the student can hire anyone.
The student shouldn't be able to hire anyone.

View attachment 117852
The situation is the flying club, by restricting the available CFIs to the clubs members or an approved list, is now providing both the instructor and the aircraft.
 
Got a reference? I was under the impression it was more about who was paying who. If the "club" accepts the payment and then pays the CFI, 100 hours are required. If the student arranges for the CFI on their own, and pays them directly, not so.

I ask because at one point we decided to require prior approval of CFIs after an incident with one CFI. Student could still theoretically choose whoever, but we did ask for prior approval so that we could ensure that the CFI actually had a copy of the POH and such.

From.AOPA.

Scenario 4. Members use club aircraft for flight training, and only instructors who are also members are authorized to instruct in the aircraft. As members do not have the choice to use a non-member instructor, the club is effectively providing the instructor. FAR91.409(b) is invoked.

You may approve non member CFIs and 100 hour inspections are not invoked as long as there are no ties back to the club. i.e the non member CFI is not be payed by the club, being scheduled ect. The CFI is independent from the club.

The club may also get in a bind if a member requests an outside instructor approval and the club claims a 4000 CFI is somehow unqualified to teach in their 172.
 
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From.AOPA.

Scenario 4. Members use club aircraft for flight training, and only instructors who are also members are authorized to instruct in the aircraft. As members do not have the choice to use a non-member instructor, the club is effectively providing the instructor. FAR91.409(b) is invoked.

You may approve non member CFIs and 100 hour inspections are not invoked as long as there are no ties back to the club. i.e the non member CFI is not be payed by the club, being scheduled ect. The CFI is independent from the club.

Ah OK, that tracks with my understanding as well. In fact, I think we only had one CFI in the club at that point, maybe even zero.

We nearly always used outside CFIs, but we did have to make sure they would be approved by our insurance and such. Believe it or not, that 4,000 hour CFI would have still needed at least 5 hours in a DA-40 to teach in ours. Worse yet, insurance did not cover members who were CFIs when they were giving instruction, even though they had far more experience with the aircraft!
 
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