Flying club, help me think this through....

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Brad W

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Trying to figure out if this makes sense for me.
I kinda feel like I don't have a great handle on the questions to ask myself....

$750 non refundable buy in
$750 refundable retainer
$100 per month dues
$125 per hour tach time
Cherokee 180, clean plane, hangared, very basic old round dial avionics with some sort of old garmin gps. No ads-b yet.
currently 5 members building to 20

Initial thought is it seems high to me. Not much different than just renting outright from the flight school, and more considering the monthy dues unless I fly it a lot.
The thinking is that it covers insurance, so if I were only to fly the club plane I wouldn't need to carry the renters insurance so that offsets the monthly dues.
Also, not so much at the mercy of flight school rules, min hours per day stuff for trips, etc...

locally, a warrior 161 rents for $135/hour, Cessna 172's rent for $135/hr to $165/hr...and the $135/hour one at least is a real tired dog

thoughts?
 
High wing. Wait... what was the question?


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Geez, do you get an equity stake in that? Who's getting all this money? $30,000 buy in agregate plus $24,000/yr in fues plus market rates for rental?
 
Looks high. If you fly 100hrs/yr, it’s 13,700/yr. That’s more than I pay to fly the Mooney 100hs/yr. (1/4 share). Yes, we have to pass the hat once in a while, but nowhere near as often as you’d expect.
 
Brad W said:
The thinking is that it covers insurance, so if I were only to fly the club plane I wouldn't need to carry the renters insurance
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I’d talk to an insurance agent familiar with the club policy and its coverages.
 
Sounds to me like the club is leasing the plane and not getting good deal in the process or an owner who calling his let someone else pay for my plane scheme a club.
 
Pretty high if you ask me. $1500 to join and then $100 a month, so $2700 for the first year, on top of the hours you fly.

I think I’d just rent if I were you, because I see no cost advantage to joining this club.
 
"building to 20" is the red flag for me. As a 5-way partnership, it might have made sense depending on location. 20 dudes in a cherokee with no rate drop for the early adopters is a huge alarm bell to me, and tells me what the "management" is up to. They're milking a piper.
 
A fair question should be how’s mx bills handled?? Split when they come in or out of a fund?? seems high. I’m in a five person club for a 182 and pay less for the TT.
 
One plane for 20 people? Does that really work? Maybe it is normal, but never having shared a plane, I honestly don't know. I thought about taking on a partner or two to help with the cost of my Bonanza, but I'm worried about scheduling conflicts. What if I want to take a 3 week trip a few times a year.
 
thanks
all good points, and exactly what my initial thoughts and gut feel is telling me.

The only pluses I keep coming back to is that right now at least the thing seems to be available often. That would likely change with 20 members though. Also, it's a chance for a clean plane with relatively few folks using it, and I wouldn't have to go through hassle of going through the school to reserve, and competing against countless students to get it.... and the last thing is that it wouldn't be student use so much..... so I'm guessing a little easier on the thing.

I don't know what they paid for it, but I'd guess the $30k aggregate buy-in doesn't quite cover the loan for the plane. As i understand it, two of the original group loaned the money to the club, so they are acting as creditors.
I think it's something in the ballpark of $6k/year or a bit more for the hangar
I have no idea what the insurance would run.
so the rest of the annual dues would serve to pay off the balance of the loan, then build a healthy kitty for maintenance or upgrades (just my guess on what they're doing)

In my thinking, I'd prefer if not being sole owner to go in as a partner on something, such as a 1/2, 1/3, or 1/4 fraction, just to maximize availability, but that's not in front of me at the moment....

I guess I'll study the bylaws and documents a bit more...and I need to get a better feel for the current rental picture,condition of the fleet, etc...especially at the next airport up the road...for comparison
 
JOhnH said:
One plane for 20 people? Does that really work?
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my question too.
So I'm told, there's statistically a fraction who will join a club and almost never fly. Other may only fly during the week, others weekend only, etc....
so maybe it's better than a typical rental situation.... true?
 
Brad W said:
my question too.
So I'm told, there's statistically a fraction who will join a club and almost never fly. Other may only fly during the week, others weekend only, etc....
so maybe it's better than a typical rental situation.... true?
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More than likely that is true, but I don’t foresee that it would be any easier to schedule this airplane than renting one of the flight school airplanes. Building a member base of twenty pilots to share one airplane will not work and it’s unbelievably unpractical and a thought that I wouldn’t even begin to entertain.

Move on. Seriously.
 
Good comments above. Also at 5 active pilots if they’re all weekend warriors there’s a lot of weekend contention for one aircraft.

I’ve seen clubs with 200 people on the roster and only 20 active and clubs with 5 people on the roster and all building time as hard as they can for flying jobs. Wild variation there.
 
Not sure if this tidbit has any bearing on this discussion, but our flying club has over 30 people on the wait list to join, and has had that for 2-3 years.
 
Where are you located? I agree with the others, it is high. Particularly for steam gauges and No ADSB.

—Skip
 
Additionally, when my former club got over 8 members per plane, we bought another plane.

-Skip
 
First impression, does seem pricey.....but then one must expect to pay a premium for the privilege of flying a low wing.
 
Ryanb said:
Pretty high if you ask me. $1500 to join and then $100 a month, so $2700 for the first year, on top of the hours you fly.

I think I’d just rent if I were you, because I see no cost advantage to joining this club.
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Ditto.
 
Yea I know prices vary but I’m in a club out of a class c airport with a beautiful 1975 cessna172m with the penn yan 180hp conversion, paint as it it’s from the 2000s, last winter we did Adsb in and out all sorts of stuff like new radios to tune of $35k, still mostly steam gauges... our 12 shares seem to sell in $3500 range dues are $60 a month, $80 a wet tach hour.... only had to chip in $1200 for those upgrades....

So I say that’s a bit steep...
 
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Yikes!!!

Not sure where your out of but, The club i am in is,
75.00 1 time initiation fee
25.00 1 time key fee
38.00 a month
They have insurance coverage plus i have my own policy

I have 23 aircraft to choose from. Cessna 150, 172, 182, pa 28's including retractable models, SR-22's on up to a Cessna 340. San Diego County.

https://www.pcflyers.org/
 
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Ed Sokol said:
Yikes!!!

Not sure where your out of but, The club i am in is,
75.00 1 time initiation fee
25.00 1 time key fee
38.00 a month
They have insurance coverage plus i have my own policy

I have 23 aircraft to choose from. Cessna 150, 172, 182, pa 28's including retractable models, SR-22's on up to a Cessna 340. San Diego County.

https://www.pcflyers.org/
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That looks like a pretty nice club! I find it humorous the 340 is cheaper per hour then the sr-22.
Edit. Just realized the 340 was dry. Still a good deal imo
 
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gkainz said:
Not sure if this tidbit has any bearing on this discussion, but our flying club has over 30 people on the wait list to join, and has had that for 2-3 years.
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yes it does....
but tell me more about your club so I can understand which way it has bearing ;)

Since I have never had an opportunity to join a club in the past, I have considered that "this chance to join" may not last. At the airport pilot's assoc meeting this weekend there seemed to be a fair bit of interest for such a relatively small thing.
but
what sort of club is yours? how many members/aircraft? costs/fees? etc.... what makes yours so appealing?
 
Skip Miller said:
Where are you located? I agree with the others, it is high. Particularly for steam gauges and No ADSB.
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ksgj

wrbix said:
First impression, does seem pricey.....but then one must expect to pay a premium for the privilege of flying a low wing.
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ha ha....um, I actually tick that box as a negative. I much prefer a cessna high wing....two doors and nice little shade/rain covers always there to guard my preflight, entrance, and exit....and a better view down where there's actually something to look at!

Huckster79 said:
our 12 shares seem to sell in $3500 range dues are $60 a month, $80 a wet tach hour.... only had to chip in $1200 for those upgrades....
So I say that’s a bit steep...
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That's a bit more like what I think I would have expected...a bit higher buy in, lower hourly rate, and fewer folks

Ed Sokol said:
I have 23 aircraft to choose from. Cessna 150, 172, 182, pa 28's including retractable models, SR-22's on up to a Cessna 340. San Diego County.
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wow
I'm curious...how many members and how available are these choices?
 
mryan75
KSGJ and yes, the hourly rate is wet.
they are talking future avionics upgrades, but the club is really just forming so he said they are trying to figure out where everyone wants to go with it. I asked specifically about ads-b. Still trying to feel it out, but as of now it seems the current flock doesn't immediately need it...they are ok flying where it's not reqd. I understand one of the members has offered to loan the club some money for avionics upgrades if so desired.
They guy I spoke with has experience as president of another club with multiple planes (out of the area) and so he's modeling after what they did.... and it does seem like it's all grounded in experience.

I think it boils down to a few things for me anyway
it's expensive-ish
maybe makes sense if I fly at least a few hours a month....and if I don't have a need to rent elsewhere (so I don't have to carry renter's insurance)
the club isn't designed to make flying cheaper than renting if only flying an hour or two a month
and the club isn't designed around making sure the plane is always available when i want it necessarily
but I'm guessing anyway the advantage it does bring is a bit more of a 'known' condition than flying a school fleet rental pounding through countless pilots and bad landings
so
my question boils down to what is my mission?
 
If it stays at five pilots probably covers all cost with proper reserve...at 20 it would be a money making machine for someone.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’d talk to an insurance agent familiar with the club policy and its coverages.
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I used to have my plane on leaseback to the club. It's not that egregious.
Brad W said:
but the club is really just forming so he said they are trying to figure out where everyone wants to go with it.
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Great, so you have five indecisive guys now and want to get consensus with 15 more? Committee work.
 
Brad W said:
yes it does....
but tell me more about your club so I can understand which way it has bearing ;)

Since I have never had an opportunity to join a club in the past, I have considered that "this chance to join" may not last. At the airport pilot's assoc meeting this weekend there seemed to be a fair bit of interest for such a relatively small thing.
but
what sort of club is yours? how many members/aircraft? costs/fees? etc.... what makes yours so appealing?
Click to expand...

You can see our club details and airplanes at www.tenhiflyers.com

We have 3 very nice, well-equipped planes - a 1987 Bonanza F-33a, a 1996 Saratoga II HP and a 1983 Dakota (new paint not shown - need web update).

We’re an ownership/equity club that has been around since 1956. We have 45 members. We’ve discussed adding a 4th plane but hangars are long waitlisted here at BJC so we haven’t gone further than discussion.

There is a one time equity share buy in of $3600 (saleable upon leaving the club) and dues of $215 per month that are completely converted to flying credits and do not expire. We charge ourselves a dry rate of $95/hr for the Bonanza and Saratoga, and $66/hr for the Dakota. Our planes average usage is 30 hours a month.

Our appeal, both in my opinion and those who look and or join, is that you we have great airplanes and good prices that you would be hard pressed to find elsewhere.

Pride of ownership shows in these planes and our club.

Edit - I just thought of this - our club (like most I suspect) is not immune to economic issues. 3-4 years ago we had a number of resignation requests in our waiting list (you are obligated to continue to pay your dues until a replacement club member joins and buys your membership share). Some were due to work relocations, loss of medicals, etc. we did manage to get through that waitlist and have turned around the wait list but it was more the general economy than anything we did.
 
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Will the monthly fees adjust as members are added?

Near me the deal is more consistent access to a plane that is likely in better condition. You pay a bit more for that. You have a key to the plane. You are named on the insurance. Usually you aren’t restricted in flight (3 hour min on the weekends).

I think a clubs monthly fee should cover all fixed costs / members. Note payment, hangar, insurance, annual (base annual, not repairs), subscriptions and registration etc.

Hourly should be fuel oil/Mx and engine reserve.

For a 180, the hourly is about what I estimated for operating costs for owning. With the pieces above.

The monthly I’ll leave to you to figure out in your area.

The buy in is a bit voodoo. Doesn’t sound like you ever own the plane. I’ve seen clubs both ways. The refundable $750 is probably more of a deposit. If you can’t make the monthly payment anymore the club (not you) has a 5-6 month cushion to replace you.
 
We run a 10 member Phoenix area club for a Dakota, $2000 buy in, $500 back on leaving, $90 a month , $48 an hr dry. Maybe 6 or 7 members actually fly so schedule is flexible , just had a member leave so we are going thru the waiting list this week.
 
Warlock said:
If it stays at five pilots probably covers all cost with proper reserve...at 20 it would be a money making machine for someone.
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I suppose it would...with the idea being to upgrade the plane & to buy additional plane(s)

flyingron said:
Great, so you have five indecisive guys now and want to get consensus with 15 more? Committee work.
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yep, exactly!
except only to say this isn't set up to be a partnership. Club officers would be the decision makers....which to your point is likely a good thing but to me maybe not.
 
gkainz said:
We have 3 very nice, well-equipped planes - a 1987 Bonanza F-33a, a 1996 Saratoga II HP and a 1983 Dakota (new paint not shown - need web update).

We’re an ownership/equity club that has been around since 1956. We have 45 members. We’ve discussed adding a 4th plane but hangars are long waitlisted here at BJC so we haven’t gone further than discussion.

There is a one time equity share buy in of $3600 (saleable upon leaving the club) and dues of $215 per month that are completely converted to flying credits and do not expire. We charge ourselves a dry rate of $95/hr for the Bonanza and Saratoga, and $66/hr for the Dakota. Our planes average usage is 30 hours a month.

Our appeal, both in my opinion and those who look and or join, is that you we have great airplanes and good prices that you would be hard pressed to find elsewhere.

Pride of ownership shows in these planes and our club.
Click to expand...

That's a nice fleet for sure. Not really competing against a typical rental fleet....in my thinking that makes for a much more attractive club than what I'm looking at....and seems like low hourly rates, but I notice those are dry rates. Seems like that could get just a bit sticky tracking who put it to bed with short fills or those running with less economical power settings
 
Brad W said:
ksgj


ha ha....um, I actually tick that box as a negative. I much prefer a cessna high wing....two doors and nice little shade/rain covers always there to guard my preflight, entrance, and exit....and a better view down where there's actually something to look at!


That's a bit more like what I think I would have expected...a bit higher buy in, lower hourly rate, and fewer folks


wow
I'm curious...how many members and how available are these choices?
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Not sure on number of members, but if you schedule a little in advance on the scheduler, I fly every weekend, No problem. Well maintained also.
 
mryan75 said:
That's the biggest thing for me. If the cost balances out, I would much, much rather be in an airplane where I know the other owners are invested in it, both literally and figuratively.
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Exactly...and that speaks to the reason I stopped flying and started getting rusty to begin with. Paying way too much for a rental taht wasn't being maintained so I decided to stop flying and start working a plan to get my own. Was on track with a type in mind, then got laid off, then had kids, etc...

Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
Will the monthly fees adjust as members are added?
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I don't think so. The idea, I think, is to build equity for avionics upgrades, prob maintenance, and maybe future additional planes

Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
Near me the deal is more consistent access to a plane that is likely in better condition. You pay a bit more for that. You have a key to the plane. You are named on the insurance. Usually you aren’t restricted in flight (3 hour min on the weekends).
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Exactly why I'm not so quick to say no thanks to the idea

Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
The buy in is a bit voodoo. Doesn’t sound like you ever own the plane. I’ve seen clubs both ways. The refundable $750 is probably more of a deposit. If you can’t make the monthly payment anymore the club (not you) has a 5-6 month cushion to replace you.
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Not vodoo I'd say, but exactly right. The club owns it. Which in some ways I don't like the idea of as well as I do of a fractional ownership...but on the other hand maybe there's benefit in that it insulates you a bit from a partner in ownership you don't agree with. The language is "$750 initiation and $750 refundable bond.

Scrabo said:
We run a 10 member Phoenix area club for a Dakota, $2000 buy in, $500 back on leaving, $90 a month , $48 an hr dry. Maybe 6 or 7 members actually fly so schedule is flexible , just had a member leave so we are going thru the waiting list this week.
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Thanks for the comparable data point. That's very helpful to know.
You have a better plane presumably.
fewer members
comparable "buy-in" but much better rate
 
@Brad W - I'll be the contrarian here.

The only issue I see is the 20:1 ratio.

$750 to join is nothing. $750 deposit towards usage protects you and the club.
$100/mo for dues is nothing.

$125 wet tach isn't bad for a 180. ~$50 of that is fuel, depending on your market. And it's Tach not Hobbs.
 
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