Flying Club Dilemma

Groundpounder said:
Regarding making more rules for the current club, I tried that, and was shot down because "we're trying to have a few rules as possible".
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Our sailing club had rules that read like this: Rule #1 - there are no rules, Rule #2 - see Rule #1 :)

Also, don't get fooled by the "well if I spend the money, I'll fly more..." you won't!

Sounds like the club in your in is catering the the weekend warrior and you have outgrown it... Option #2 would be my choice.. Yes, you're going to spend more money, but look at the conveniences. Having the airport 10 minutes away alone is worth $50 a month.

As for getting your own airplane, you may want to consider this, that is get the plane, outfit it they way you want, and then start selling shares/memberships... you have to start somewhere.


the-four-forces-of-flight.jpg
 
iamtheari said:
Math and bumper stickers have a lot in common. They both rely on ignoring most of the facts and simplifying the remaining ones until you can justify the conclusion you were hoping for.
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I like the bumper sticker that says “Celebrate Ability”. :)
 
Here's a data point: There is a local (Twin Cites Area) flying club we looked into once. They have a (2) Centurions, (2) Skylanes, (2) Skyhawks. All appear to have GTN650's and full ADS-B. The buy in is now at $5500, monthly fee is $184/month. The 210's rent at $177/hr, 182's rent at $137/hr and the 172's rent at $91/hr all wet. I think they own some/all of the hangars and atleast 1 is heated.

The 2nd club option you've mentioned is closer to you so you would fly more. Maybe their 182 will rent a bit less often than the 172 due to price. And maybe some members aren't even HP endorsed yet also eliminating them from flying the 182.

From an ownership POV, I think we have figured our all-in cost to be just under $120/hr (includes hangar, annuals, insurance, fuel, mx reserves, etc). Of course that is with $60K not earning any interest. Ownership matters to us. However, if we started flying less than 50hrs a year that club would be awfully appealing. Especially with 2 Centurions.

I have a hunch its the $10K up front that is the only thing really bothering you about the 2-plane club? The $90/hr wet for the 182 is pretty nice.

If you form your own club it will be your plane while you watch others maybe do stuff to it you don't like. I guess if you could see it as a business only and you get it 1/4 time it wouldn't be so bad. But then the question is do you start with a 172 to find renters more easily. Or a Cirrus which appeal to those with more $$$$ and maybe wouldn't fly it as much.
 
Sinistar said:
But then the question is do you start with a 172 to find renters more easily. Or a Cirrus which appeal to those with more $$$$ and maybe wouldn't fly it as much.
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Excellent question... Going with the Cirrus, you're going to find a more affluent clientele... that is not so budget conscious on maintenance and upgrades... but then there is the question if the market can absorb it price.. that is are the enough willing to pony up for the buy in and the hourly rate.. As he stated there are already some other pilots looking to jump if the right situation came a long with a low threshold.

A while back I was approached with a similar situation that is buying into a Cirrus SR22... the conversation ended right when the guy looking to start the club said "oh... we're not buying the plane, we're leasing it, that way we get the newest latest and greatest plane every three years..." Someone drank the Cirrus Sales Pitch Kool-Aid... I think my first year cost was close to $80K... I am sorry, I can get a lot of airplane these days for $80K.
 
Ventucky Red said:
Excellent question... Going with the Cirrus, you're going to find a more affluent clientele... that is not so budget conscious on maintenance and upgrades...
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I wouldn’t count on that.

I had a long conversation with an owner of an older “less desirable” steam or Avidyne (I forget) Cirrus, who had bought it early on under the pitch that the local Cirrus place would “always be able to rent it out, you should put it on leaseback!”

He was lamenting that the newer Cirri had taken all the renters away and he could barely afford the thing and the leaseback was more of a curse than a blessing to him now.

I doubt he ever put another dime into that airplane. Ever. He didn’t have it to put into it after buying the thing, even if he wanted to.

I bet it’s off the line, no longer a leaseback, and he either sold it or is staring at the ADS-B upgrade costs wondering how he’s going to afford it.
 
denverpilot said:
I wouldn’t count on that.

I had a long conversation with an owner of an older “less desirable” steam or Avidyne (I forget) Cirrus, who had bought it early on under the pitch that the local Cirrus place would “always be able to rent it out, you should put it on leaseback!” He was lamenting that the newer Cirri had taken all the renters away and he could barely afford the thing and the leaseback was more of a curse than a blessing to him now.
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Point taken... My recommendation was tailored with the newer aircraft with all the accoutrements. If buying anything today I at least want a 430W and ADS-B in it..

There are two DA40's at the place I rent from.. one of these days I'll get checked out... I learned on steam gauges.... they work fine for me for now.
 
PaulS said:
Even at 75 hours that's a great rate, at 200 it's fantastic. Does the rate include an engine allowance?
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Engine allowance, plus a little for oil and filter changes (which we do ourselves) and tires. Pays for a minimalist annual. We’ve had a couple of spendy annuals because we’ve chosen to upgrade to airplane over time, we fix everything wrong at annual, well, unless something needs fixing right away.
 
Are the rates at the new club Tach or Hobbs?

Sounds like a no-brainer to me. Gives you some time to figure out your GA mission.

Barring that, find a non-equity partnership, but you have to hang out at the airport to figure hat out. The hint about asking local a&p’s is a good one. My CFI got me connected with my last partnership.
 
I have been very active in management of flying clubs for over 25 years. There is nothing about the flying club you are in that would be appealing if I were in your situation. Changing the mind set of that club is going to be next to impossible. Find something else.
 
scottfromboston said:
Are the rates at the new club Tach or Hobbs?

Sounds like a no-brainer to me. Gives you some time to figure out your GA mission.

Barring that, find a non-equity partnership, but you have to hang out at the airport to figure hat out. The hint about asking local a&p’s is a good one. My CFI got me connected with my last partnership.
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The club I am in now charges Hobbs, the club I want to join charges tach.
 
Before committing to the new club. See if you can get access to the scheduling software and monitor it for a bit until you are comfortable.
I was interested in a flying club, before I joined the manager said here is a login. Get online and look when the plane is available when you would normally schedule something. Short answer, it never was. So I did not join.

Oh, ditch the old club. Not worth it.

Tim
 
tspear said:
Before committing to the new club. See if you can get access to the scheduling software and monitor it for a bit until you are comfortable.
I was interested in a flying club, before I joined the manager said here is a login. Get online and look when the plane is available when you would normally schedule something. Short answer, it never was. So I did not join.

Oh, ditch the old club. Not worth it.

Tim
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That is good advice. Most the online schedule services allow a perspective member to be placed on the schedule with no ability to schedule.
 
Unless the schedule is unusually booked up (at <10ppl/plane, i find this doubtful) or you somehow doubt the solvency of the club and their ability to repay the 10k should you want to leave, I'd say that it sounds like a pretty wise move. Your current club sounds like (functionally) a rental arrangement.

I think that you'll fly more, personally, but it's a small spend to find out.
 
iamtheari said:
Math and bumper stickers have a lot in common. They both rely on ignoring most of the facts and simplifying the remaining ones until you can justify the conclusion you were hoping for.
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there are lies, damn lies, and then statistics!
 
tspear said:
Before committing to the new club. See if you can get access to the scheduling software and monitor it for a bit until you are comfortable.
I was interested in a flying club, before I joined the manager said here is a login. Get online and look when the plane is available when you would normally schedule something. Short answer, it never was. So I did not join.

Oh, ditch the old club. Not worth it.

Tim
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Yup. That saved me from maybe making a mistake and joining one a few years ago.
 
I am beyond envious of the rates some of you guys are paying in your clubs.

My club has 5 planes: an older 182RG, a 2001 172S, 1996 Archer III, 1983ish 172, and a 1979 ish Warrior. Buy in is $4250, $85/month in dues, but the rate on the 182RG is $205/tach hour. The Warrior and older 172 are $120 wet.

The club does just barely better than breaking even each year, and it does put away a generous amount for reserves, but even if we weren't saving for a rainy day, the rates would only be about $30/hr lower.




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Eric Gleason said:
I am beyond envious of the rates some of you guys are paying in your clubs.

My club has 5 planes: an older 182RG, a 2001 172S, 1996 Archer III, 1983ish 172, and a 1979 ish Warrior. Buy in is $4250, $85/month in dues, but the rate on the 182RG is $205/tach hour. The Warrior and older 172 are $120 wet.

The club does just barely better than breaking even each year, and it does put away a generous amount for reserves, but even if we weren't saving for a rainy day, the rates would only be about $30/hr lower.




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Wow, how busy are the airplanes? How many members are there? With that many airplanes, I'd imagine there are bunch of members. A $10 increase in monthly dues would help the club out quite a bit.
 
Yeah, there's a structural problem here (ratio of people to planes). Or the hangar costs are bananas.

Sometimes it's good to have a low monthly; you get a lot of people who don't fly but help to support the club, but this only works if the monthly income can support operations. If the non-flyers vote down dues increases or adding members, then increases in ongoing costs eventually drown the club.

Groundpounder said:
Wow, how busy are the airplanes? How many members are there? With that many airplanes, I'd imagine there are bunch of members. A $10 increase in monthly dues would help the club out quite a bit.
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If someone can't afford a $120 increase in dues annually, then they don't belong in a flying club. But, I know how things work in reality.....
 
Agreed. But if the ratio of members to planes is too small, then you may not even make a dent.

Groundpounder said:
If someone can't afford a $120 increase in dues annually, then they don't belong in a flying club. But, I know how things work in reality.....
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Groundpounder said:
Wow, how busy are the airplanes? How many members are there? With that many airplanes, I'd imagine there are bunch of members. A $10 increase in monthly dues would help the club out quite a bit.
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63 members last I checked, with a cap of 75. The planes are fairly busy, and in a week with good weather each one will fly several times. I think the club averages around 950 hours each year across the fleet.

I'm sure a $10 increase in dues is a non-starter with this club, and I'm not sure what it would accomplish anyway. $630 more into coffers probably isn't enough to lower the rental rates a whole dollar on each plane.

On the other hand, the club has strong cash reserves. Enough that we're having 3 of the planes painted this winter without touching cash reserved for other expenses.
 
Groundpounder said:
That other flying club has me really tempted. They have two airplanes, one is a very nice 182 that just got a pair of Garmin G5's installed, has a Garmin 430 with WAAS, an autopilot, stormscope, ADS-B in/out, long range tanks, and a 260hp engine. The second airplane is a 172, also with a Garmin 430W, a wing leveler, and a 160hp engine with powerflow exhaust. This club is more of a financial commitment, I would have to buy in at just under $10k, which they would pay back to me if I ever left, but they have a 12 month period to do it in. Also the dues are $130 a month, and the 172 is $92/hour, the 182 is $116/hour, both wet. Right now there are 18 members, with a total limit of 23 members. They are based at an airport that is 10 min down the street from me, both airplanes have their own t-hangar, and you can drive right out on the ramp. Having access to an airplane like their 182 gives me the option of having a good airplane to travel in that isn't as weather dependent as the 172 I fly now. Also, having 2 airplanes for 18 members vs 1 airplane for 16 members means an airplane will probably be more likely to be available when I want to fly. The downside to this club is that it is more of a financial commitment, and they have a few more restrictions on how long I can take the airplane for, i.e. weekend overnights.
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This sounds like the way to go to me. I do have two questions, though - What are the exact restrictions you mention in the last sentence, and what does the club do with your $10K? Do they have the ability to pay it back when you decide to leave? Are there capital reserves for engine overhauls?

Closer means you'll take more opportunities to fly. Better ratio of members to planes means better availability. Better planes means they're more useful for trips. All of the above mean you'll fly more and likely get your money's worth out of it.

For reference, I've been in a club since 2005, and on the board of directors for all but a few months of that time. We faced a dilemma back in 2008. The economy was bad, people couldn't give their shares away, and our airplanes were old. We had a 182 that was pretty nice (G430, new paint, autopilot) and a couple of old Archers. Some members had formed another club with an SR20 because they wanted something newer and sexier, although most of them remained in our club for at least a while. But as an equity club, if you can't give shares away, that's a bad thing.

After looking at all of our options, it became clear that we needed to modernize our fleet. Since then, we've replaced the older Archer with a DA40, the not-as-old Archer with a newer Archer, and the 182 with a newer R182 (RG). Every plane in our fleet has Garmin GPS (G1000 in the DA40, G430W in the other two), two-axis autopilot, ADS-B, recent paint and leather interiors, and we keep them well-maintained and GPS databases up to date. Now, shares go for $2000 (still a steal), dues went up from $120 to $200 per month to help pay for the planes, and we charge reasonable tach rates on the planes ($168 for the R182, $133 for the DA40, and $109 for the Archer). We have plentiful reserves for engine overhauls and are in excellent shape financially. Flight hours are up all the way around but availability is still good.

Provided the restrictions are reasonable and the $10K/solvency and reserve questions are answered to your satisfaction, I think the 172/182 club that's closer by sounds MUCH better than what you've got now.

James331 said:
The 182 club, with a 10k buy in, 18 members and you're almost paying retail rental rates?
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$116/hr wet for a 182 is nowhere close to retail.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
This sounds like the way to go to me. I do have two questions, though - What are the exact restrictions you mention in the last sentence, and what does the club do with your $10K? Do they have the ability to pay it back when you decide to leave? Are there capital reserves for engine overhauls?

Closer means you'll take more opportunities to fly. Better ratio of members to planes means better availability. Better planes means they're more useful for trips. All of the above mean you'll fly more and likely get your money's worth out of it.

For reference, I've been in a club since 2005, and on the board of directors for all but a few months of that time. We faced a dilemma back in 2008. The economy was bad, people couldn't give their shares away, and our airplanes were old. We had a 182 that was pretty nice (G430, new paint, autopilot) and a couple of old Archers. Some members had formed another club with an SR20 because they wanted something newer and sexier, although most of them remained in our club for at least a while. But as an equity club, if you can't give shares away, that's a bad thing.

After looking at all of our options, it became clear that we needed to modernize our fleet. Since then, we've replaced the older Archer with a DA40, the not-as-old Archer with a newer Archer, and the 182 with a newer R182 (RG). Every plane in our fleet has Garmin GPS (G1000 in the DA40, G430W in the other two), two-axis autopilot, ADS-B, recent paint and leather interiors, and we keep them well-maintained and GPS databases up to date. Now, shares go for $2000 (still a steal), dues went up from $120 to $200 per month to help pay for the planes, and we charge reasonable tach rates on the planes ($168 for the R182, $133 for the DA40, and $109 for the Archer). We have plentiful reserves for engine overhauls and are in excellent shape financially. Flight hours are up all the way around but availability is still good.

Provided the restrictions are reasonable and the $10K/solvency and reserve questions are answered to your satisfaction, I think the 172/182 club that's closer by sounds MUCH better than what you've got now.



$116/hr wet for a 182 is nowhere close to retail.
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It's like 20 bucks off, and when you factor in the monthly dues and buy in, unless you fly a good amount it's probably more than just renting.
 
James331 said:
It's like 20 bucks off, and when you factor in the monthly dues and buy in, unless you fly a good amount it's probably more than just renting.
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The nearest 182 I can find near me for rent is over an hour away, and it’s $209/hour.
 
I’d also look to see if there are any opportunities to partner up with an existing owner on the field. Maybe someone with a nice IFR equipped ship that doesn’t fly, but would appreciate someone like you keeping the dust off. I did this once between owning and it worked out very well. With your professional credentials it’s a no brainer, just need to find the right aircraft/owner.
 
denverpilot said:
I had a long conversation with an owner of an older “less desirable” steam or Avidyne (I forget) Cirrus, who had bought it early on under the pitch that the local Cirrus place would “always be able to rent it out, you should put it on leaseback!”

He was lamenting that the newer Cirri had taken all the renters away and he could barely afford the thing and the leaseback was more of a curse than a blessing to him now.
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The place I'm training at has a fleet of SR22 and SR20 and I don't think any of them are more than 2, maybe 3, years old. As a student/renter, that really appealed to me. It's busting my budget pretty hard, but I'm getting what I want out of my training, so it's all worth it.
 
James331 said:
It's like 20 bucks off, and when you factor in the monthly dues and buy in, unless you fly a good amount it's probably more than just renting.
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There are very few, if any, 182s for rent at $136/wet anymore (I'm sure you can find a couple). And if they are, they are likely dumps. Most are more like $160-180 an hour.

The guy also apparently wants to take some trip. Can't do that in almost any rental without insane minimums.
 
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LoneAspen said:
The place I'm training at has a fleet of SR22 and SR20 and I don't think any of them are more than 2, maybe 3, years old. As a student/renter, that really appealed to me. It's busting my budget pretty hard, but I'm getting what I want out of my training, so it's all worth it.
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That’s cool. Independence?
 
Bonchie said:
There are very few, if any, 182s for rent at $136/wet anymore (I'm sure you can find a couple). And if they are, they are likely dumps. Most are more like $160-180 an hour.
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Maybe, but the equity club I am in has the following:

1967 182K
7,900hrs total
1,000 on the engine
Painted in 2008
Engine and 3 bladed prop 2010
Interior 2011
We just had the panel totally redone, removes the loran and ADF, GTN 650, GTX 345, G5HSI, New Garmin Audio panel. Also had a brand new laser cut panel with LED back lighting. Also has an Stec 55 AP and wet vacuum pump.

8 members with online scheduling. Availability is good, no overnight or trip mins.

My buy in last year was $6,200, monthly dues are $77, and $110 hr. wet tach. Plane is hangared and has been since at least 2008.

The recent upgrade was about $41K, which was a + $3,600 each, and then $100 a month for the next 13 months on top of our dues. To me its a very good deal, airport is 10 mins from home. Very nice plane.

Same field FBO has 2 newer G1000 172s for $160 hr hobbs or a 206 for $250/hr. The 206 is the only plane avail for out of town trips, as the 2 172's are used constantly for local training.
 
denverpilot said:
That’s cool. Independence?
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Yep! I've been really happy with them, my instructor, the fleet, and my training. I'm really glad I picked them. My boss gives me some light-hearted grief at work over what I'm spending, but as long as I'm not living under a bridge and eating cat food, it's all good :)
 
Had a flying clu
Cricket1 said:
Maybe, but the equity club I am in has the following:

1967 182K
7,900hrs total
1,000 on the engine
Painted in 2008
Engine and 3 bladed prop 2010
Interior 2011
We just had the panel totally redone, removes the loran and ADF, GTN 650, GTX 345, G5HSI, New Garmin Audio panel. Also had a brand new laser cut panel with LED back lighting. Also has an Stec 55 AP and wet vacuum pump.

8 members with online scheduling. Availability is good, no overnight or trip mins.

My buy in last year was $6,200, monthly dues are $77, and $110 hr. wet tach. Plane is hangared and has been since at least 2008.

The recent upgrade was about $41K, which was a + $3,600 each, and then $100 a month for the next 13 months on top of our dues. To me its a very good deal, airport is 10 mins from home. Very nice plane.

Same field FBO has 2 newer G1000 172s for $160 hr hobbs or a 206 for $250/hr. The 206 is the only plane avail for out of town trips, as the 2 172's are used constantly for local training.
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That would be my dream flying club
 
Cricket1 said:
Maybe, but the equity club I am in has the following:
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Then you aren't renting like suggested by the person I responded to. I was also in an equity club with a 182 and we charged $95 an hour.

But telling someone to go just rent a 182 at $136/hr from an FBO is very unlikely. Much less taking it on trips.
 
Soooo.....had a conversation with a fellow local corporate pilot and friend over a few drinks the other day, and now I might be headed down the road of starting a whole new flying club. Sent a few texts and made a few calls, and it sounds like it won't be difficult to get 6-8 other professionals together to go in on an airplane and make it reasonable for everyone. Probably won't be a 182, but an Cherokee 180 or Archer would probably do almost everything we want to do and not cost an arm and a leg. I might start another thread, but I'm sans laptop and tired of typing on my phone.
 
Get an Archer. It'll cost more upfront but likely be better equipped anyway.

Most importantly, you won't have to be an amputee to ride in the backseat like an older Cherokee 180.
 
Bonchie said:
Then you aren't renting like suggested by the person I responded to. I was also in an equity club with a 182 and we charged $95 an hour.

But telling someone to go just rent a 182 at $136/hr from an FBO is very unlikely. Much less taking it on trips.
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Sheesh.... sorry to hear about your Cheerios.
 
Groundpounder said:
Soooo.....had a conversation with a fellow local corporate pilot and friend over a few drinks the other day, and now I might be headed down the road of starting a whole new flying club. Sent a few texts and made a few calls, and it sounds like it won't be difficult to get 6-8 other professionals together to go in on an airplane and make it reasonable for everyone. Probably won't be a 182, but an Cherokee 180 or Archer would probably do almost everything we want to do and not cost an arm and a leg. I might start another thread, but I'm sans laptop and tired of typing on my phone.
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The back seat of the Cherokee 180 is closer to the back seat of a Porsche 911 than it is to the back seat of, say, an Accord. If you need to bring 2 or more adults with you, it will be lacking. Hell, I need to push the pilot seat of my club's Archer all the way back (6'1") and my 4 year old has to sit indian-style behind me.
 
Yeah as others have said, the Cherokee 180 is a "short" body with a small backseat. Kids or bags can go in the backseat, not full size people. An Archer is a 180 HP longer body cherokee. A Warrior is the same thing with a 160hp. Either can be good performers. Our club has three Warrior II's we operate for about 110/hr wet. I imagine they would make about 125kts well rigged and with wheel pants. 950lb useful load.
 
dell30rb said:
Yeah as others have said, the Cherokee 180 is a "short" body with a small backseat. Kids or bags can go in the backseat, not full size people. An Archer is a 180 HP longer body cherokee. A Warrior is the same thing with a 160hp. Either can be good performers. Our club has three Warrior II's we operate for about 110/hr wet. I imagine they would make about 125kts well rigged and with wheel pants. 950lb useful load.
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I have an Arrow 180. To make the short body Cherokee back seat issue even more entertaining, when loaded near gross I had to put the heavier adult in the back seat and the lighter one in the copilot seat, otherwise it was too far forward CG for that weight.
 
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