Flying Club Dilemma

Groundpounder

Groundpounder

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Emerson Bigguns
I have a flying club dilemma that I'm hoping you could help me resolve.

I am currently in a FC that has a mid-70's 172. The airplane is in very good shape, the members treat it well, and we never skimp on maintenance. The aircraft is certified for IFR, but the only GPS it has is an old KLN-90B that was never installed in an IFR approved manner, and the database is way old. There is also no autopilot, and no form of backup attitude information, so even though I am a competent IFR pilot (I am a corporate pilot for a living) I am not comfortable flying this airplane IFR. Most of the members are VFR only pilots that use an iPad to navigate, so there is no big demand to make this aircraft a better IFR platform. The only modern piece of avionics is a Garmin transponder with ADS-B in/out. It has been proposed that we install a pair of Garmin G5's, but that has been "in the works" for a long time, and no progress has been made on it. Same can be said for installing a more capable GPS, like a Garmin 430 or one of the GTN family. Right now we have virtually no restrictions on how long or how often you can take the airplane. That has its pluses and minuses, which are fairly obvious, so I won't dive into them now.

Right now we have 16 members. A few of them rarely fly, but there are a few guys in the club with aspirations to fly for a living someday, and they fly the pants off the airplane. Therefore, the airplane is frequently not available when I want to fly. Because of my unpredictable work schedule, I can't schedule flights out really far in advance, and when I have time to fly, a lot of the time the airplane isn't available. The total limit for members is 20, and for a while the club president was pushing to get a total of 20 members until a bunch of people complained. The dues are $100 a month, and the airplane is $35/hour dry. There is a $1000 buy in that is non-refundable. It is based at an FBO, and is hangared in the winter, and is on the ramp in the summer. This isn't a huge deal, but you can't take your car out on the ramp at this airport, so if you have a lot of junk to load or unload, its kind of a pain. The airport that this airplane is based is about 30 min from my home, which isn't terribly far, but there is a closer airport with another flying club.

That other flying club has me really tempted. They have two airplanes, one is a very nice 182 that just got a pair of Garmin G5's installed, has a Garmin 430 with WAAS, an autopilot, stormscope, ADS-B in/out, long range tanks, and a 260hp engine. The second airplane is a 172, also with a Garmin 430W, a wing leveler, and a 160hp engine with powerflow exhaust. This club is more of a financial commitment, I would have to buy in at just under $10k, which they would pay back to me if I ever left, but they have a 12 month period to do it in. Also the dues are $130 a month, and the 172 is $92/hour, the 182 is $116/hour, both wet. Right now there are 18 members, with a total limit of 23 members. They are based at an airport that is 10 min down the street from me, both airplanes have their own t-hangar, and you can drive right out on the ramp. Having access to an airplane like their 182 gives me the option of having a good airplane to travel in that isn't as weather dependent as the 172 I fly now. Also, having 2 airplanes for 18 members vs 1 airplane for 16 members means an airplane will probably be more likely to be available when I want to fly. The downside to this club is that it is more of a financial commitment, and they have a few more restrictions on how long I can take the airplane for, i.e. weekend overnights.

The next option I have been thinking of is starting my own flying club. There are a few other pilots in the area in the same line of work that I am in that have expressed interest in starting a club with a 6 seat airplane, or at least an airplane with more load carrying capability than a 172, and good enough avionics to make us all feel comfortable flying it IFR. I don't think this is a good option, mostly because it would cost a lot more than option 1 or 2, we'd have to all agree on an airplane and where to base it (we're scattered over a fairly wide area), and it will be a lot of work starting a club from scratch. You may have seen my post asking about SR-20's, that was related to this idea.

The last option is renting. The local flight school has 2 172's for rent that are in OK shape, only one has a GPS, and from what I have seen on flightaware, the airplanes fly a ton. There are also lots of restrictions on taking the airplanes either overnight or for the whole day. If I recall, its 4 hours min flying per day for anything taken longer than 8 hours. Plus the few interactions I have had with them haven't been too friendly, they have the stereotypical grumpy old CFI working there that launched into a rather lengthy dissertation on how a real pilot doesn't need an autopilot when I asked if the airplane was equipped with one.

Here is the rub. I flew the 172 from the flying club I am a current member of less than 10 hours last year. Some of that was because the airplane wasn't available, some of it was because the weather wasn't good, and some of it was because the airport is just far enough away from me that it eliminates the "lets just go for a quick flight" flight. But if I make a $10k investment, I need to fly more than 10 hours a year. I think I will, but if I don't.....

So, what should I do? I'm leaning towards the flying club with the 172 and 182, if it wasn't obvious. Or am I being a whiner, and should I just stick with the club I am in now? Or should I just rent since I only fly 10 hours a year? Or go completely crazy and start a whole new flying club? All peanut gallery comments are welcome.
 
You could always go with the 1 member limit flying club. It's a little more out of pocket, but there's no feet dragging by other members on any decisions to upgrade avionics. But if only flying 10 hours a year...yeah, just rent.
 
EdFred said:
You could always go with the 1 member limit flying club. It's a little more out of pocket, but there's no feet dragging by other members on any decisions to upgrade avionics. But if only flying 10 hours a year...yeah, just rent.
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I guess I should have said this in my original post, but I do not want to buy my own airplane, for a multitude of reasons.
 
Groundpounder said:
I guess I should have said this in my original post, but I do not want to buy my own airplane, for a multitude of reasons.
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I think the 10 hours a year is the biggest reason not to. Honestly at 10 hours a year having any sort of of capital investment is overkill. Especially if you can't get your hands on the plane for the 10 hours you want. Both clubs seem to be much more out of pocket without the availability advantage vs renting.
 
EdFred said:
I think the 10 hours a year is the biggest reason not to. Honestly at 10 hours a year having any sort of of capital investment is overkill. Especially if you can't get your hands on the plane for the 10 hours you want.
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I agree with that, but my goal is to fly more, which is being prevented by some of the issues with my present flying club.
 
Groundpounder said:
So, what should I do?
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Figure out what your recreational GA mission is. Then, go find the club that supports it the best.

You said 10 hours recreational GA last year. That’s not enough to even justify doing it.
 
Groundpounder said:
I agree with that, but my goal is to fly more, which is being prevented by some of the issues with my present flying club.
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Catch 22. You want/need a plane with availability at a whim, but the only way that happens is when you get the numbers down to ownership/partnership. Your other option would be to network at local fields. Talk to an A&P, find out who only puts 20 hours a year on their plane between annuals, and contact that person to see if they would rent it out cheaper just to keep it flying.
 
What you want costs more, even at the club you are with now, to equip one of the airplanes as you wish would drive the club costs and your price up significantly. You are getting a great deal partially because your present club members are cheapskates, not necessarily a bad thing. You can't have it both ways. If you want something more capable you are going to have to pay.
 
The 18 member club with a 172 and 182 sounds like a good deal.

I take it you fly for a living and want access to something to take friends/family on trips? A 6 seater would be great but the 182 is at least a true four place aircraft. I am sortof in the same boat, would love to get access to a saratoga/lance/210/A36 to fly about 30 hours per year.

The reason you don't see many 6 place aircraft in flying clubs is usually insurance. If you had pretty high pilot experience minimums you might be able to get a reasonable club rate though.
 
EdFred said:
Catch 22. You want/need a plane with availability at a whim, but the only way that happens is when you get the numbers down to ownership/partnership. Your other option would be to network at local fields. Talk to an A&P, find out who only puts 20 hours a year on their plane between annuals, and contact that person to see if they would rent it out cheaper just to keep it flying.
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I would love to find something like that. Easier said than done, sadly.

PaulS said:
What you want costs more, even at the club you are with now, to equip one of the airplanes as you wish would drive the club costs and your price up significantly. You are getting a great deal partially because your present club members are cheapskates, not necessarily a bad thing. You can't have it both ways. If you want something more capable you are going to have to pay.
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I know that, and I am fine with paying more for more capability. Very few people in my club agree with that, and don't want to see any costs go up, either in monthly dues or the per hour charge.

dell30rb said:
The 18 member club with a 172 and 182 sounds like a good deal.

I take it you fly for a living and want access to something to take friends/family on trips? A 6 seater would be great but the 182 is at least a true four place aircraft. I am sortof in the same boat, would love to get access to a saratoga/lance/210/A36 to fly about 30 hours per year.

The reason you don't see many 6 place aircraft in flying clubs is usually insurance. If you had pretty high pilot experience minimums you might be able to get a reasonable club rate though.
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Yes you are 100% right. I'd love to be able to go somewhere for an overnight and not have to worry about wx as much as I do now.
 
It seems like the 2nd club is a perfect fit for what you need. Sure, it's more money up front (I'm assuming you can pay it, but like most hesitate to drop $10k without a lot of thought). The second club has airplanes that meet your mission, it's closer to your house, and should have more availability given the member/plane ratio. If the $10k buy-in is refundable, why not join and see how it goes for a year or two? Worst-case scenario your $10k is tied up for a couple years, but it's not gone entirely. If after a couple years the Club isn't working for you, just drop it and get your money back.
 
Groundpounder said:
Yes you are 100% right. I'd love to be able to go somewhere for an overnight and not have to worry about wx as much as I do now.
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Your current situation with no autopilot and no IFR GPS sucks for making any trips. I'd bail.
 
Don't be such a tightwad! That 172/182 is calling your name. Closer and has the gadgets you prefer on their planes. Really not a bad deal financially, similar club here. But yeah, make sure your flying more than 10 hours/yr to make it worthwhile. Cost per hour comes down the more you fly. If you're not going to fly much renting a better option as others have said.
 
The two plane club sounds like a great deal. And 10k is not a bad investment for that kind of access. 182 for trips. 172 for local tooling around.
 
dell30rb said:
Your current situation with no autopilot and no IFR GPS sucks for making any trips. I'd bail.
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The 182 club, with a 10k buy in, 18 members and you're almost paying retail rental rates?

Frankly I'd want to know how much the rental place is charging and I'd likely go that route until you can afford your own plane.
 
I do have the $10k, but I am not going to tie up that much capital without putting some thought into it.
James331 said:
The 182 club, with a 10k buy in, 18 members and you're almost paying retail rental rates?

Frankly I'd want to know how much the rental place is charging and I'd likely go that route until you can afford your own plane.
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18 members between two airplanes. A 172 rents for $115/hour from my local airport.

I am never buying my own airplane, for a great multitude of reasons.
 
If it helps - the cost being in the club isn't 10k (I assume you get that back when you leave). The cost is how much interest you're losing out on because you don't have that money invested somewhere. If it's money that would otherwise be parked in a money market account, then you're losing out on 2-3% of it, like $300/year. Split that across 10 hours of flying and it's $30/hour. Even at the long term average of 7%, it's not that much on a monthly basis, $58. That makes the new club about $88/month more than the old one.

Is that much worth it to you to gain access to the better, faster airplane closer to you? I presume you'd actually fly more an hour a month here because you'd have an IFR aircraft and you'd fly through moderate weather, plus go further.

Seems like a big gain in flying ability for a relatively minor cost.
 
Groundpounder said:
I do have the $10k, but I am not going to tie up that much capital without putting some thought into it.


18 members between two airplanes. A 172 rents for $115/hour from my local airport.

I am never buying my own airplane, for a great multitude of reasons.
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Yeah, for the above prices, ether stay where you are with the cheap 172 and the issues it has, or just forget the clubs and rent, no way I'd pay that large buy in and those monthly rates for such a small savings.
 
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bflynn said:
If it helps - the cost being in the club isn't 10k (I assume you get that back when you leave). The cost is how much interest you're losing out on because you don't have that money invested somewhere. If it's money that would otherwise be parked in a money market account, then you're losing out on 2-3% of it, like $300/year. Split that across 10 hours of flying and it's $30/hour. Even at the long term average of 7%, it's not that much on a monthly basis, $58. That makes the new club about $88/month more than the old one.

Is that much worth it to you to gain access to the better, faster airplane closer to you? I presume you'd actually fly more an hour a month here because you'd have an IFR aircraft and you'd fly through moderate weather, plus go further.

Seems like a big gain in flying ability for a relatively minor cost.
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This is a good point, as long as the club remains solvent it is a good use of your money for flying and when you decide it doesn't work for you any more, you get your money back.... eventually.
 
Groundpounder said:
It has been proposed that we install a pair of Garmin G5's, but that has been "in the works" for a long time, and no progress has been made on it. Same can be said for installing a more capable GPS, like a Garmin 430 or one of the GTN family.
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Never been a big G5 fan personally. As long as the vacuum system is competent I felt safer in our club planes that had a 430 / GTN in it and kept the vacuum attitude vs a G5. The G5 is a nice piece of eye candy.. but ultimately for IFR flying and navigating a competent GPS system is a big help to me with approaches, navigation, etc. I've had vacuum systems fail in flight before.. however I should think most proficient pilots could keep a bird right side up in the soup with the turn coordinator, altimeter, airspeed.. those are basically your backup. In the soup anyway you're typically making small enough corrections that at least in my experience the heading, TC, and altimeter where the main things I looked at in steam gauge planes

Groundpounder said:
Therefore, the airplane is frequently not available when I want to fly. Because of my unpredictable work schedule, I can't schedule flights out really far in advance, and when I have time to fly, a lot of the time the airplane isn't available.
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This was my exact problem in one of the clubs I was part of. One plane across 8 members, but those 8 members flew it a ton, and the plane was booked out weeks in advance. So the "let's go for a joy ride tomorrow afternoon" was never an option. Sort of kills flying and I just left that club actually. I totally feel the inconvenience that can give a club member like yourself

Groundpounder said:
The next option I have been thinking of is starting my own flying club.
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Nahh.. that's a lot of work and you'll end up with the same problems as the other clubs, scheduling, unavailability, and what kind of rules to have in place that aren't too onerous but encourage fair usage of the plane. You'll have many of the headaches of owning a plane, but very little of the same freedom.. and most flying clubs I'm aware of don't really make money for the owner, they're happy to break even

Groundpounder said:
The last option is renting. The local flight school has 2 172's for rent that are in OK shape, only one has a GPS, and from what I have seen on flightaware, the airplanes fly a ton. There are also lots of restrictions on taking the airplanes either overnight or for the whole day. If I recall, its 4 hours min flying per day for anything taken longer than 8 hours.
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Nahh.. ditch the flight school option. the planes are usually in "ok" shape at best (like you state) and for anything beyond the "look dad I can fly a plane!" one hr local flight they really aren't viable options for anyone looking to actually use their certificate to get places. Want to take the plane for a weekend to MVY? Nope.. most clubs have very onerous rules about minimum daily hobbs, etc. I actually did the math once.. I wanted to take a Warrior to Nantucket once for a week... well when all was said and done it would have been cheaper to charter a private plane then rent a warrior!

Groundpounder said:
So, what should I do? I'm leaning towards the flying club with the 172 and 182
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If you plan to fly more than 10 hrs a year then I would absolutely join the 172 / 182 club. $10K is a big commitment, but with fewer members and more planes you'll have more availability to fly.. and that $10K commitment will give an extra encouragement factor to get up in the air as often as you can :)

PS -
have you thought about this option? What about kicking some potential rules ideas around with your current club? I am sure you're not the only member feeling the same way as you. I was in a club that had no rules and then after people complained about availability, monopolization, etc., we enacted some pretty fair rules
-no more than 5 reservations at a time
-only 1 weekend reservation within a 3 week period (however that rule is lifted Friday morning before the weekend to give people a chance to fly the plane if the plane is not booked)
-standby reservations (lets you break the 5 reservation at a time rule, and also book "on top" of someone else as a backup)
-minimum 1 hr charge if booked for more than 3 hrs
-minimum 1 hr charge if you cancel a reservation after your booking time starts
-overnights stays will charge however many nights you stayed, or the hobbs time, whatever is higher. IE. 4 nights, 2 hr hobbs.. you'll get charged as if 4 hobbs hrs. Or 3 nights, 5 hobbs hrs, you pay the 5
 
My thought would be to continue to dig for another club ... ours (while not close to you, and having a 30+ application waiting list to join) would fit the bill for what you want to do. Just for your info, check us out at http://tenhiflyers.com
 
We have a 10member FC with a 235F and I would honestly say maybe 4 are regular flyers. As long as their keep paying their dues, we are good.

Thankfully there is a good amount of activity during the week that we are all not fighting over the weekend slots. There is the usual multi state cross country but they are fewer these days.
 
Groundpounder said:
...........................I would have to buy in at just under $10k, which they would pay back to me if I ever left, but they have a 12 month period to do it in.................
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Make sure they are solvent and can actually do that. Why 12 months? Are they betting on the come that they'll get another member to join and replace you? Is that their only resource to get your 10k back to you if you leave? I was looking into a club that does that, refund your initial buy in when you leave. Found out I would be number 7 on that list. Number one has been waiting for about 15 years.
 
Should invert the question. How many hours per year would make the 2nd club worthwhile?
 
I’d try to put together a roughly 4 pilot partnership around an Sr-20 and rent in the meanwhile. Your current club sucks.
 
I feel your pain. I am in an almost exact situation... 14 members. Less than half of which that fly at all. Semi-capable IR platform (we have a coupled GTN750), airplane is 40 minutes away, and its a "SlowHawk" I fly about 50-60 hours a year, but I'm sure that would go up significantly if the airplane was down the road rather than in the next county. So my plan is to buy sometime next year. But based on your OP, 10 hours annually? Renting seems right for you...
 
I suggest buying an airplane with 2 or 3 partners. We charge ourselves $40 tach/hr. dry and just under $300 a month for a V35A with a 430W and a Britain autopilot. Got steam gages but it’s fast and it flys beautifully. We almost never have any scheduling conflicts.
 
j1b3h0 said:
I suggest buying an airplane with 2 or 3 partners. We charge ourselves $40 tach/hr. dry and just under $300 a month for a V35A with a 430W and a Britain autopilot. Got steam gages but it’s fast and it flys beautifully. We almost never have any scheduling conflicts.
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How many hours do you fly it a year?
 
@Groundpounder are you really solidly current and proficient at IFR flying at 10 hours a year? Nobody mentioned it, so I’ll ask. That’s less than an hour a month.

Reason is, I’m wondering why the type of IFR GPS matters at all, if you’re not flying hard IMC. VMC, it really doesn’t matter.
 
denverpilot said:
@Groundpounder are you really solidly current and proficient at IFR flying at 10 hours a year? Nobody mentioned it, so I’ll ask. That’s less than an hour a month.

Reason is, I’m wondering why the type of IFR GPS matters at all, if you’re not flying hard IMC. VMC, it really doesn’t matter.
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OP says he is a corporate pilot... probably current and proficient
 
denverpilot said:
@Groundpounder are you really solidly current and proficient at IFR flying at 10 hours a year? Nobody mentioned it, so I’ll ask. That’s less than an hour a month.

Reason is, I’m wondering why the type of IFR GPS matters at all, if you’re not flying hard IMC. VMC, it really doesn’t matter.
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I fly about 300 hours a year for work.
 
Lots of responses, hard to quote them all.

Regarding making more rules for the current club, I tried that, and was shot down because "we're trying to have a few rules as possible". That was great when there were 10 members, half of whom didn't fly very often, but its a different club now.

Regarding buying my own airplane, I just can't justify it. I make good money, but I can't see buying a $100k airplane, plus paying for all its upkeep. If I had the need to fly 100+ hours a year, it would make more sense, but for as many shortcomings as the flying club concept has, the ability to share costs among a bunch of people makes so much more financial sense. If the airplane blows an engine, or some crazy AD comes out, it will be a lot easier to swallow the bill when it is spread among 15 people.

Regarding the 10 hours a year, I agree that for that amount of flying, renting makes sense, but I would like to do at least 25, if not more. Renting might still be cheaper, but I am willing to pay a bit more for the convenience of a flying club vs renting from an FBO.

Thank you for all the responses, you have given me some good information.
 
PaulS said:
How many hours do you fly it a year?
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It varies - from a low of 75hrs. to a high of almost 200. One of the owners neede the flight time to get his ATP, and now works for Sky West.
 
j1b3h0 said:
It varies - from a low of 75hrs. to a high of almost 200. One of the owners neede the flight time to get his ATP, and now works for Sky West.
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Even at 75 hours that's a great rate, at 200 it's fantastic. Does the rate include an engine allowance?
 
Your current club costs you $2,050 per year for 10 hours. (The $1,000 buy-in is a sunk cost so I'm ignoring it.)

The other club would cost you $2,480 per year for 10 hours, not counting the cost of letting someone else hold your $10,000 for the duration of your time in the club plus one year afterward.

You did not say how much it costs to rent locally. Let's say it's $120/hr. Your 10 hours would cost you $1,200 per year that way.

The annual break-even happens around 35 hours between your current club and renting at $120/hr. It happens around 55 hours between the other club and renting at $120/hr. The convenience factor is important, and only you can decide which of these options is the best balance between convenience and cost.

One option is to fly the club plane when you're able and rent when you're not, for a year or two, and see how much more you fly. If the rental option is comparable to the other club's planes, this will give you a fairly good idea of whether switching clubs, always renting, or staying with your current club is best for you.
 
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