Stewartb
Final Approach
Bingo. My syn vis page has an AH overlayed on it.
Flying Blind - Why VFR pilots get into trouble in the clouds
- Thread starter Matt Gunderson
- Start date
gsengle
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- May 9, 2016
- Messages
- 2,099
- Display Name
Display name:
Gsengle
I’ve flown both ways. Honestly keeping upright comes before terrain. If you’re threading terrain as you inadvertently go IMC, you’re in trouble and were asking for it.
Sometimes less info is better when you’re overwhelmed. I’d look at terrain to pick headings only after the plane was under control. Don’t steer into red. At most altitudes you can just ignore the terrain issue entirely, and the rest of the synth viz picture is distraction. You just need an interpretable horizon.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Syn vis on an iPad is a toy. It’s not an “experimental glass panel” or remotely equivalent to one.
- Joined
- May 18, 2007
- Messages
- 6,809
- Display Name
Display name:
jsstevens
I'm sure your GDL and GP are great until they aren't. Will you know when that is? It's not the FAA certifications that impress me, it's the capabilities that are built in (RAIM in particular) that are critical. My iPad and Foreflight are also great. Until they aren't. With the external Bad-elf GPS it's better. Until it isn't. The key point I'm trying to make is there is a fundamental difference between the internal error monitoring capabilities of the portable devices and the certified (and possibly some of the experimental, I'm not familiar with them) devices. An iPad or Android consumer tablet has none of that.
All of these devices are wonderful. I'm a technologist by trade and am continually amazed at what we have available. But I also look for and keep cognizant of the the limitations.
John
Stewartb
Final Approach
Like I've said, I can put my GP next to my G3X and they're in synch. If you guys who haven't want to cling to your ideas of what they don't do? Your choice. I don't care what you use. What's annoying is how guys give experience pireps and guys with no experience tell them thay're wrong.
I have been flying with Garmin Pilot since I got my license. It is nowhere near as reliable as even the g300 in the skycatcher I fly, even when paired to the gdl39 3g and i wouldn’t trust its syn vis to fly in IMC.
So, now that your appeal to authority failed, I’m guessing you’ll switch back to the ad hom
In order to replicate the study, you would need to replicate all of the experimental conditions, not just the lack of instrument training. That would include covering the attitude indicator, directional gyro, and rate-of-climb indicator, and putting the pilots in an unfamiliar high-performance airplane. The study designers were intentionally setting up conditions in which 100% of the test subjects entered an unsurvivable flight attitude (because otherwise there would be no way to calculate a finite average time to use as a baseline for testing their proposed recovery strategy).
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...field-crash-of-pa32.88767/page-4#post-1982923
My concern is that since the 178-second number implies that the chance of survival is zero, this could cause many to panic, when surviving requires remaining calm enough to apply what they've been taught. Does it keep enough pilots from intentionally entering IMC to make up for the ones who enter it unintentionally and are killed by panic? We don't know, and lacking that information, I see no ethical justification for the exaggeration.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
I believe the GDL takes the info from the RAIM gps and sends it to the IPAD, but, if you need to revert to the Ipad for basic attitude info, chances are the GDL info transmitted has the same problem as your primary display. Honestly, if in IMC and my instruments have crapped the bed, I would at least take a peak at the Ipad if there was no alternative.
Sinistar
En-Route
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2016
- Messages
- 3,734
- Display Name
Display name:
Brad
Hi Stewart. Not trying to beat up on you here and I am a lowly PPL only but here's my GDL39-3D experience:
First got it and thought having weather and traffic was awesome. Got as comfortable with that as I could. Then I started dabbling with SynVis. To be quite honest, mainly because it looks cool in the GoPro video. It renders fasteer on the iPad so we use our iPad mini 4 for this instead of the Android. Cool. Starting to learn how a SynViz display works. Still no master but now makes sense to me.
So I was about to do my first night solo cross country, about a 2hr flight. I thought: "Lets have the SynViz display up on the panel and the Android will be backup on the seat next to me. If I get disorientated or loose the vacuum I'll still have another reference." So basically, along the lines of what a lot of portable AHRS users must think at some point in time.
And guess what? After all those great, glitch free flights during daytime and VFR....the GDL39-3D SynViz page started having problems. It would indicate AHRS fail (at least it indicated a failure). It would take 2-10 seconds and then "jump and catch up.". To make things even worse, I said screw it and tried to go to the moving map page...nothing...this supposedly iOS device of perfection...locked up! So I pulled it from the dash, put the Android there instead (also running GP) and it worked flawless for the entire flight. I did not use the SynViz on the Android and kept it simple, a moving map and two VOR's.
So it did fail me. Thank god it failed me in night VFR conditions and not while I had flubbed into a overcast layer.
I will admit: Before this happened - I really did think of it as a useful, dependable gadget. But it still has this issue today. I'm trying to figure out why as there have been software changes to the tablet OS, GP software, GDL firmware and even where we mounted it and wired it.
Ravioli
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2014
- Messages
- 8,021
- Location
- Somewhere else
- Display Name
Display name:
Unwanted Guest - Perma-ban Pending
No. But two thoughts on that.
It's going to a do standard rate turn.
My 430W would definitely give a terrain warning, which could help.
[Opinion] If you're doing inadvertent flight into IMC in a rising terrain situation you may be so far behind the situation that nothing but the grace of God will save you.
idahoflier
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2017
- Messages
- 1,731
- Display Name
Display name:
idahoflier
I think you guys are getting into the weeds on the synthetic vision discussion. I don't think ANYONE is advocating a VFR pilot flying into IMC because they have synthetic vision. A comment was made that an individual felt that it was a worthwhile optional addition to their EFIS and I wholeheartedly agree, particularly if you found yourself straying into IMC over mountainous terrain. The 180° turn back to VMC is going to save your life but if you're in the mountains it would be nice to know if you should make it to the left or the right...
- Joined
- May 18, 2007
- Messages
- 6,809
- Display Name
Display name:
jsstevens
As I said in my first post, if I've got a portable solution and my panel dies, I'll use it. It's far more likely to be better than the seat of my pants. But I would never plan to use a portable solution in IMC.
I wouldn’t use an iPad unless my instruments were dead. Of course id use it if I had nothing. I’m not going to distract myself with it if my panel isn’t broken significantly
Actually, that thing is missing a FLC button. If it had one, you could dial in a Vx climb and drop flaps/gear after you initiated the 180.
Edit: If that thing is holding Vx I suppose you don't need to drop flaps if it can keep you from stalling.
Last edited:
idahoflier
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2017
- Messages
- 1,731
- Display Name
Display name:
idahoflier
Who said anything about an iPad? The synthetic vision comment was in regard to an EFIS which is a primary display...
The only thing I’ve been arguing against is the thinking that iPads with Garmin Pilot are appropriate to use to get out of IMC unless you literally have nothing else available.
I think Stewart has been very clear that he believes an iPad is a good tool for this.
Stewartb
Final Approach
You don't read very well. I specifically stated I wouldn't use my syn vis intentionally for IMC in an earlier post. I also specifically stated the reason.
Tantalum
Final Approach
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2017
- Messages
- 9,250
- Display Name
Display name:
San_Diego_Pilot
*it's not a total crapshoot, if you are up at 20,000 ft when your engine craps out you have a fair amount of time and room to
--A.) set the IAS hold to best glide
--B.) set your heading bug towards the best landing spot
--C.) tell ATC you are screwed, hopefully help is on the way
--D.) troubleshoot
--E.) pull the chute while you still have a solid 1K-2K AGL but you've also maneuvered the plane to a more hospitable parachute touchdown spot
--F.) get out, dust yourself off, take a selfie with #Cirruslife, make a call on your sat phone, and post on PoA about it
The rockies have peaks at 12,000 to 14,000 ft, Compare that to an Aztec, with on engine out you will be somewhere in the 7K to 9K range on a single engine, and working to keep the plane stabilized on one engine (yeah multi pilots are trained for that, but plenty of multi pilots still can't manage an EO). So, would I rather drill into a ravine at 90 knots or descend down under the parachute, get out, and make a call on my sat phone? Nevermind that you won't have as much workload capacity to trouble shoot, etc. I love the Aerostar, but that plane is a handful on one engine (or so I've read).. and the DA62, while an awesome machine, if I have that much money to spend on a plane I'm not buying a DA62..
**it's funny, because some people balk at the idea of spending $1K-$2K per year for a chute reserve, but will gladly burn double the gas, buy double the oil, deal with double the maintenance, four mags, two overhauls, etc.
Having now crossed the rockies a couples time in a single engine it's humbling but there are safe ways to do it where you can just about remain within gliding distance of, at least if not an airport, then a road or a field / prairie / etc. Also, at 200 knots KTAS it's honestly not that long that you are over them.. just a few weeks ago approaching KTEX:
Stewartb
Final Approach
benyflyguy
En-Route
This made my day.
arkvet
Line Up and Wait
Tantalum I'm not even in the market for a Cirrus but you sure would make a good salesman for them 
Seriously, you do make some valid points. With a wife and 3 kids and living in the SE the NA Saratoga fits my current mission much much better. I (very lightly) toy with the idea of a twin but don't want to think about the expense. My Toga is very well equipped and I've bonded with it well Maybe someday when some kids leave the nest a Cirrus would be worth considering.
Seriously, you do make some valid points. With a wife and 3 kids and living in the SE the NA Saratoga fits my current mission much much better. I (very lightly) toy with the idea of a twin but don't want to think about the expense. My Toga is very well equipped and I've bonded with it well Maybe someday when some kids leave the nest a Cirrus would be worth considering.Ravioli
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2014
- Messages
- 8,021
- Location
- Somewhere else
- Display Name
Display name:
Unwanted Guest - Perma-ban Pending
The model I have doesn't do airspeed climbs. You can pre-select, and you can set new altitudes and it will climb or descend to the new setting, but the rate is on me. (power mostly) They were going to make a version with it, but they scrapped the idea in favor of Skyview development.