Flying and Not Talking to Anybody

plank said:
Planes flying around and not talking to anyone is clearly a recipe for disaster. I know this has been done for almost a hundred years and is part of the culture but at some stage we need to bring responsibility and control to the aviation field like we have else where. Part 91 in particular needs to be tightened up. Those of you operating under Parts 121 and 135, you are very well regulated and the safety record would seem to back that up. The "cowboy" mentality that plagues Part 91 needs to be tightened up. What in particular? Everyone should be talking to ATC. No VFR flights without a flight plan. Transponders required for everyone with traffic avoidance systems (thank god for ADS-B being mandated by 2020 but it needs to be expanded to everyone). Experimental planes need to be made illegal. By all means overhaul the part 23 certification process but these morons and their unsafe kit planes need to be stopped.
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Sure. Places like the economy, health care, etc.
 
I prefer tunes to scratchy radio traffic. It has become somewhat unusual for me to listen to much of anyone on the radio on long cross country flights.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Geezus it is just flight following, they do less then class d towers and we know how well those work. If you don't exercise your freedom to fly without radio permission you will lose it. You guys are closer aligned with Plank then you realize.
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There is that potential, but it does not follow the general trend of detachment, that is what ADS-B and NextGen are all about. FF is not about radio permission, it is about radio information. IFR is about radio permission, I do not see any push at this point by the FAA to get all GA to always file IFR and do away with VFR.

I see the opposite, I see the FAA mandating people equipment so that the information can be ascertained from your plane and they don't have to talk to you. Eventually traffic avoidance will be automatic.
 
Planck, you seem to be under the misimpression that the FAA is there to protect you as the citizen. Nothing is further from the truth, although the average citizen is affected positively as a secondary effect. The mission of the FAA is to assure that the insurance actuaries are working with accurate assumptions. The FAA and other sanctioning bodies are providing the same service as Class Societies (and USCG for domestic trade) in the Maritime trade.

The purpose of the FAA is to assure the viability of insuring the industry.
 
I understand it is hard for some of you to accept that things are going to change in the future. Change is coming. I am not as crazy as some of you think, the way I think is actually in line with a growing majority of the population and also YOUR VERY OWN FAA and other aviation regulatory bodies around the world. Of course some of you are going to resist it. Nobody likes their freedoms being infringed on. But when YOUR freedom impacts MY freedom then I am sorry I am going to be vocal.

As time goes on there is going to be more and more reluctance for us to have to accept some you who insist on NOT talking and some of the other unsafe practices you are doing.

Go ahead and dismiss me as a troll because I am saying something that you don't like or agree with. Change is coming and the change is good. I am going to predict that in 50 years time there will be no uncontrolled flight any more. There will be no VFR. There will probably be no human pilots. And most likely this will be the same for ground based vehicular traffic too. I do support your right to do things the old way, but no longer will you be allowed to do it over our cities and our homes. Go do it out over the desert where if you crash and die (which you most likely will at some stage), at least you don't take us out with you.
 
Yup, public roads, public laws. If you want you use their roads, you have to ascribe to their laws. Hope you like big brother, cause he sure is going to 'like' you.
 
plank said:
I understand it is hard for some of you to accept that things are going to change in the future. Change is coming. I am not as crazy as some of you think, the way I think is actually in line with a growing majority of the population and also YOUR VERY OWN FAA and other aviation regulatory bodies around the world. Of course some of you are going to resist it. Nobody likes their freedoms being infringed on. But when YOUR freedom impacts MY freedom then I am sorry I am going to be vocal.



As time goes on there is going to be more and more reluctance for us to have to accept some you who insist on NOT talking and some of the other unsafe practices you are doing.



Go ahead and dismiss me as a troll because I am saying something that you don't like or agree with. Change is coming and the change is good. I am going to predict that in 50 years time there will be no uncontrolled flight any more. There will be no VFR. There will probably be no human pilots. And most likely this will be the same for ground based vehicular traffic too. I do support your right to do things the old way, but no longer will you be allowed to do it over our cities and our homes. Go do it out over the desert where if you crash and die (which you most likely will at some stage), at least you don't take us out with you.
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You're no troll, you are worse than a troll. You are clouding a very good discussion about safety with your personal crusade. Please start your own threads and stay out of ones where real pilots are discussing real issues. Take this drivel somewhere else, please. If you don't, then I will assume that you really are an attention whoring troll.


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In the majority of my flying I cannot raise anyone to provide radar services and even if I could I'm seldom where the radar can see me. I'm surrounded by 14,000' terrain and radar and comms are line of sight.

What do you think _lank, we should close down all airspace that doesn't have coverage so I can comply with your demands? That would include a big number of airports some with regional airliners.
 
CharlieTango said:
In the majority of my flying I cannot raise anyone to provide radar services and even if I could I'm seldom where the radar can see me. I'm surrounded by 14,000' terrain and radar and comms are line of sight.

What do you think _lank, we should close down all airspace that doesn't have coverage so I can comply with your demands? That would include a big number of airports some with regional airliners.
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That's why ADS-B is coming about, to provide service where there is none.
 
Jaybird180 said:
This person is no troll. He's obviously a pilot. Look at the language and familiarity with the system in his first post in the thread.
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Well, there are non-pilot trolls and pilot trolls.
 
It's entirely possible he's just not that bright.
 
plank said:
it. Nobody likes their freedoms being infringed on. But when YOUR freedom impacts MY freedom then I am sorry I am going to be vocal.
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Ah, the cry of busybodies everywhere: "I don't *want* to control you, but I just *have* to...you know, for your own good. But mostly because I want control."

you have rights to life, liberty, and property. You don't have a right to live a completely coddled, risk-free existence where any potential misfortune is swept aside by pervasive control of...well, everything.
 
plank said:
So I know I will be deeply unpopular for saying this but here goes...

Planes flying around and not talking to anyone is clearly a recipe for disaster. I know this has been done for almost a hundred years and is part of the culture but at some stage we need to bring responsibility and control to the aviation field like we have else where. Part 91 in particular needs to be tightened up. Those of you operating under Parts 121 and 135, you are very well regulated and the safety record would seem to back that up. The "cowboy" mentality that plagues Part 91 needs to be tightened up. What in particular? Everyone should be talking to ATC. No VFR flights without a flight plan. Transponders required for everyone with traffic avoidance systems (thank god for ADS-B being mandated by 2020 but it needs to be expanded to everyone). Experimental planes need to be made illegal. By all means overhaul the part 23 certification process but these morons and their unsafe kit planes need to be stopped.

Also no more night VFR.

Social responsibility. It is about time that some of you learn to exercise it!
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Let me be the 2nd to say "Go **** yourself"!!!!

You ever heard of a guy named Greg Boyington?
He was a moron who flew around in one of those unsafe kit planes called an RV-3 you think should be stopped.
He was also the highest scoring Marine fighter pilot of WWII. They made a little movie and TV show about him. Couple of books too.
Funny, but I have never heard of you before.;)
 
plank said:
I understand it is hard for some of you to accept that things are going to change in the future. Change is coming. I am not as crazy as some of you think, the way I think is actually in line with a growing majority of the population and also YOUR VERY OWN FAA and other aviation regulatory bodies around the world. Of course some of you are going to resist it. Nobody likes their freedoms being infringed on. But when YOUR freedom impacts MY freedom then I am sorry I am going to be vocal.

As time goes on there is going to be more and more reluctance for us to have to accept some you who insist on NOT talking and some of the other unsafe practices you are doing.

Go ahead and dismiss me as a troll because I am saying something that you don't like or agree with. Change is coming and the change is good. I am going to predict that in 50 years time there will be no uncontrolled flight any more. There will be no VFR. There will probably be no human pilots. And most likely this will be the same for ground based vehicular traffic too. I do support your right to do things the old way, but no longer will you be allowed to do it over our cities and our homes. Go do it out over the desert where if you crash and die (which you most likely will at some stage), at least you don't take us out with you.
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You mean the growing majority that live in Mama's basement until they are 35 and elect politicians like Hillary and Barry because they are gullible enough to think they love them?:lol:

The problem with your ilk is the only rights you are concerned with are yours. More specifically here, you are only concerned about your right to keep your head up your ass inside the cockpit, or cabin in your case I'm certain, staring at your magenta line with the false security of having someone else do your looking for you.

As for your grand vision of change over the next half decade I wouldn't sweat it too much. Some nordo VFR moron in a moron built dangerous kitplane will probably bore into you while you are playing with your EFIS or something in the busy "Wild West" Class E airspace before your enlightened majority can save the Earth from itself.
 
No VFR flights without a flight plan
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Can someone help me figure out how to fill out my flight plan form for when I take a club 150 up just to remind myself how much fun flying is and how lucky I am to get to do it? I need to know how all the 360s and other direction changes go in there. And I need a frequency for all the woo-hooing I do without thinking.

What happens when I decide after a bit of slow flight that I want to fly direct to a VOR and then to an airport with cheap gas? Can I amend in flight or should I land and file a new one?

I may be different than some on here, but I'm willing to bet a lot of you are like me. I fly because it's a lot of fun, and because of the freedom. I've been interested in airplanes since my dad took me to my first airshow and finally got to a point in life that I could be a pilot. I don't do it for a living, but I bet I enjoy flight as much as anyone, whether it's a trip around the pattern or a long XC. I fly just to fly whenever I can. I proposed to my fiance in College Station after a surprise flight in the 172. A month ago, I saw a 150 reservation had been cancelled, so I got in the plane before deciding where to go and just went (Corsicana has a nice grass runway and 2 crew cars). Heck, now that I can kinda read an approach plate, I enjoy getting to follow along when I fly commercial. I'm pumped that I get the chance to RIDE in a Cessna Caravan to middle of nowhere Arkansas while my coworkers are driving to meet me there. Anyone who says all VFR flights need a plan needs to really think about why a lot of people like me fly. Not to get point A to point B, but to have fun right next to point A.
 
Jaybird180 said:
OMG....I can do that??? YES!!!

I learned to fly post 9/11 in the DC SFRA. I'm a child of the radio, it's required for security purposes to fly in-out of the SFRA. I also fly in the DC-FRZ AKA the Circle of Doom. No radio is no-bueno.

I'm getting excited about our upcoming Long XC to Atlanta (a bucket list flight) and thinking about doing this without my custom of using Flight Following. I've only flown once in my life without ATC services and that was because they were busy ignoring me.

I was looking over my routing scenarios - we may make a few diversions to visit with some folks along the way and I noticed on the Charlotte sectional the Gamecock MOA, but I seem to not be able to find the frequency for the controlling agency to contact if I wish to coordinate >D flight through. However, the Gamecock-A MOA has the agency frequency depicted. Is this a charting error or am I looking in the wrong location for the information? The pink line depicted is one of the planned routes of flight that will take me through it.

I attached the pics because I don't know how to post them in a thread. It would have been better, so if someone can explain how to do that too, it would be helpful for future reference.

I'm also going to have to make sure to brush-up on my airspace knowledge; no PDs on this trip because I'm squawking 1200. And I may even get bold enough to not file a flight plan, (maybe :D).
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Free at last, free at last! Thank God almight! We're free at last! .
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

;)
 
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Banned again. Either a trolling pilot or a POA member with a false profile trolling. Either way, it's gotten old real quick.
 
I have discussions with my wife all the time while using FF. I don't miss calls. Personally for a flight of that length I would be on FF if for nothing else than the familiarity with the system if I didn't have my IA yet or keeping fresh with using the system if I have my IA.
 
Back to the original post I sometimes use FF sometimes I file, and sometimes I just squawk 1200. Really a choice of how much help/monitoring you want or feel you need. in the end it is just a personal choice.

Oh and plank, do you cancel every flight were FSS tells you VFR flight not recommended??? :D
 
Jaybird180 said:
OMG....I can do that??? YES!!!

I learned to fly post 9/11 in the DC SFRA. I'm a child of the radio, it's required for security purposes to fly in-out of the SFRA. I also fly in the DC-FRZ AKA the Circle of Doom. No radio is no-bueno.

I'm getting excited about our upcoming Long XC to Atlanta (a bucket list flight) and thinking about doing this without my custom of using Flight Following. I've only flown once in my life without ATC services and that was because they were busy ignoring me.

I was looking over my routing scenarios - we may make a few diversions to visit with some folks along the way and I noticed on the Charlotte sectional the Gamecock MOA, but I seem to not be able to find the frequency for the controlling agency to contact if I wish to coordinate >D flight through. However, the Gamecock-A MOA has the agency frequency depicted. Is this a charting error or am I looking in the wrong location for the information? The pink line depicted is one of the planned routes of flight that will take me through it.

I attached the pics because I don't know how to post them in a thread. It would have been better, so if someone can explain how to do that too, it would be helpful for future reference.

I'm also going to have to make sure to brush-up on my airspace knowledge; no PDs on this trip because I'm squawking 1200. And I may even get bold enough to not file a flight plan, (maybe :D).
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The CTC Fayetville freq on the one picture is for the class c airspace not the MOA. The MOA controlling freq is in the chart margin.

Chart margin will also give active times. You can fly through without talking to someone, but there may be some high speed movers in that airspace you may never see.
 
I like FF for all that it is, plus I'm on frequency if the fan quits.

And someone will have a general idea where I'm down.

Short trips without it are nice sometimes. Glad we live in a free country. For now.
 
I forgot: Foreflight gives MOA info when you tap on it, which is what I use in flight. The screen shot was from Skyvector.
 
Outside of instruction, I never use FF. If i'm in the Flybaby I talk to no one. If I'm in a different airplane I file IFR.

Instructing we use flight following a LOT as I don't want people to be afraid to use it when they get their ticket. It provides a substantial safety benefit.

Edit:

Now that I think about it. I've done flight following in the Flybaby twice for various reasons. I don't have a transponder. In those cases the controller(s) identified me via primary radar and then had me do some course changes to verify the contact. Kind of fun.
 
I guess I just want to list some things that have been brought up and comment on them.

1) positive control for all VFR's coming soon is a pipe dream. Many ATC facilities are so short staffed that they live and die on overtime.

2) If a controller tried to vector you in a cloud while VFR, sorry 'bout that. Radar doesn't show clouds and I'm sitting in a windowless room many miles away. Just say unable due to clouds.

3) Henning really hit the nail on the head in favor of FF in page one. Most of my traffic calls are for traffic that won't burst your comfort bubble and yes my WX information is probably more pertinent to IFR aircraft since you're obviously avoiding all of it anyway. Where it really can help is if something goes wrong and you aren't having to start from the beginning.

I remember having a Grumman of some type on FF at 3,500 who was on a slight turn off course to stay away from the main airport's departures climbing to 5. Pilot notices his oil pressure is normal, but the temp is high and tells me. I tell the tower to stop the departures at 3 just in case and clear him direct through the bravo to his destination, which also puts him closer to a class D airport 10 miles down rage. Pressure drops a couple of minutes later, he diverts to the class D and lands normally with the engine dying over the fence. Without FF he's below the bravo and won't make an airport.

I never used it much unless I was flying an hour and a half away or more, but now that I know what resources are are there and what aren't, I'm more inclined to take the hassle and ask for FF. That said, its certainly nothing needed and I can see it being a nuisance.
 
OP,

I'm the opposite of you. I started flying in an Aeronca Champ with no radio at all. I still fly sometimes with nothing more than using CTAF for landing and takeoff. I am in a sparsely populated area and can get by with it for local flights at relatively low altitude with no problem. For travel flying, however, FF is the only way to go IMHO, even out here in the boonies. In the eastern US, it just wouldn't seem to be worth the risk.

If you want to do a little flying without being tethered to ATC, find a sparsely populated area while on your trip and do a little flying WHILE WATCHING CLOSELY FOR TRAFFIC.

What worries me is that if all your flying has been while tethered, you may not be accustomed to the routine of watching for traffic.

When I fly untethered, I have a cycle I go through:

1. Scan around for traffic, watching an area for a few seconds at a time to allow my eyes to adjust to the area.
2. Watch flight instruments to ensure heading and altitude, adjust trim or whatever.
3. Scan for traffic again.
4. Glance at oil pressure and cylinder head temperature.
5. Repeat cycle.


So, basically it's scan for traffic, left panel, scan for traffic, right panel, scan for traffic left panel...... Then of course, throw in other things between traffic scans such as looking at chart, gps, clock, changing frequency, checking for frequencies and pattern altitude of next airport. or whatever, without fixating so much that you miss your scanning for traffic for very long.

All that said, IMHO, you are safer tethered to FF than doing the kind of boondocks flying I just described. Since I'm a belt AND suspenders kind of guy, I feel that it's better to pretty much do both. Just because you have someone watching for traffic on radar, there's nothing wrong with also keeping your own eyes peeled.
 
Just remember your level of responsibility increases when carrying passengers.
 
I had a big cross country planned relatively recently. I don't recall the exact date but I could find it with a bit of searching... it was the day of the recent Chicago ATC fire.

Found out from my instructor when I ran into the FBO to use the bathroom. No flight following would be available that day. Even though I'd reviewed weather and NOTAMS beforehand I called the weather briefer just in case. They used a term I'd never heard before... "excellent VFR". Excellent. No kidding it was absolutely clear pretty much all the way down.

You better believe I made that flight. I just told my wife no sleeping and to be even more on the lookout for traffic than usual. Beautiful day, uneventful flight, great weekend. Would do again.

I use it when it's available but I don't consider it a must-have.
 
I've been on cross countries where flight following from existing ground stations was physically impossible (no air/ground) for part of the flight. That's different, and a flight plan is an absolute must.

As a rule, it's silly to turn flight following down when it's available.
 
Plank isn't CTLSi, is it? :)
It looks like there are a number of different opinions about using FF. One I've seen is those who monitor ATC but don't check in unless they perceive an immediate advantage. Gliders, crop dusters, ultralights, UAS, powered parachutes, yeah........
It's good to know that everyone is interested in FF.
 
I flew in a less populated area with FF, the radio was relatively quiet and an aircraft I didn't see passed too close for comfort off my right wing. ATC never called him out. For the reason that my scanning skills are not fighter pilot sharp, is a strong vote in favor of using it as one poster above mentioned, but I cannot expect they will catch everything either, but it increases the probability.

Jesse- I don't get your reasoning for not using it, yet you teach it. Do you supply your students with pro/cons that you didn't elaborate upon here?
 
MBDiagMan said:
OP,

When I fly untethered, I have a cycle I go through:

1. Scan around for traffic, watching an area for a few seconds at a time to allow my eyes to adjust to the area.
2. Watch flight instruments to ensure heading and altitude, adjust trim or whatever.
3. Scan for traffic again.
4. Glance at oil pressure and cylinder head temperature.
5. Repeat cycle.
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Is that really different on FF versus off FF? That sounds about like how I fly all the time, on or off FF. Just because you are talking to ATC doesn't mean you can take a nap because all traffic will be called out to you...
 
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