Fly to an intersection on an approach plate when cleared for the visual?

bcool

bcool

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Nov 25, 2010
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St Charles, MO
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Display name:
Bud
Yesterday, as I approached KSUS (Spirit of St. Louis near St. Louis) on an IFR flight plan, I was told to expect the visual to 26L. Right before being switched to the tower I was told to fly direct to EAVES and was cleared for the visual to 26L.

I punched EAVES into my GPS and all was well, but then I tried to find it on my IFR low-level chart in Foreflight & couldn't find it. But, when I typed it in the search box a box popped up that said 'Named Intersection' and showed the Lat/Lon coordinates.

When I got home I researched it and found that EAVES is the LOM for the ILS 26L approach. I thought that was odd the controller cleared me direct to a point on the ILS approach when I wasn't flying the ILS. It worked out OK since my GPS could find it, but what if I wasn't GPS equipped? How would I have known to look for EAVES on the ILS approach chart? Or, did they give it to me knowing I had a GPS and could easily find it?

Always something new on every IFR flight :)
 
If you were on an IFR flight plan you should know and expect it. You can always ask too. As for why, either just getting you in quicker as prior traffic you may have been following is no longer a factor, or they may have needed separation between following traffic and you.
 
For better or for worse, it’s not uncommon for ATC to use a fix from an approach plate. Even having an approach loaded might not help since you might load the one that doesn’t have the one ATC wants you to use. Best thing to do is to punch it into your GPS or EFB.
 
If you'd have asked I'd bet they'd tell you. I've been given random fixes in a clearance.

TWR: Proceed direct EAVES.
3FR: Where is EAVES?
TWR: It's on the ILS 26L.

I've had them volunteeer it. I got a clearance at KSUT once from Wilmington Approach to go to a fix which he volunteered was on FAF for the instrument approach.
 
You mean I'm supposed to actually look at the approach plate before weighing in? ;)
 
POAR 123.14: Posters are required to familiarize themselves all available information including the FARs, approach plates, and legal counsel opinions on any matter before posting.
 
I guess I didn’t expect to have to reference an approach plate when I was told to expect the visual and it was VMC outside. But, if that’s normal I suppose I’ll start doing that (although I’ll doubt I’ll remember all the possible fixes on multiple plates).

I’ll just put it into the GPS and check the plates to confirm :)
 
Them: proceed direct EAVES
You: Where's that.
Them: On the ILS 26
You: You told me to expect the Visual. Give me a vector to turn final from.

I agree with what's said above about just loading an approach to the runway your going to when they initiate expecting the Visual. Loading an approach is a routine thing to do and you can't load a Visual, so why not.
 
depends on where you were. Did you get cleared for the approach? Something is missing.......?
 
I’m pretty sure the order was:
  1. expect the visual for 26L (I was already cleared direct to the field)
  2. proceed direct to EAVES (the ILS FAF)
  3. cleared for the visual
after a little time between each.

Step 2 is what threw me. Now I’ll know to watch out for instructions like this :)
 
in small airports you won't see this too often, but at larger airports this is pretty common. Just toss the approach in to the GPS and if you need it good to go, if you don't, enjoy the true visual! They basically want you to go to that fix and join the final there for the visual approach, clearing you for the visual just helps with their spacing.

If you listen to the approach control on liveatc for a big airport like CLT or ATL you'll often here an instruction to turn to a heading, intercept the localizer, cleared for the visual, or fly direct x and cleared for the visual.
 
@JustinD summed it up well. At slower uncontrolled airports I will just send you direct the airport (in a FLiB, jets usually seem to prefer going to the FAF for a stabilized straight in) and clear you for the vis when you get the field in sight. At a busier airport where you are sequencing to the final I will issue direct a fix on the instrument approach IAF or FAF depending on where you are and what I need to ensure what you are doing in order to sequence without questioning what you will do.

While flying (I usually go IFR) I always load the approach in and easily accept any IAP fixes if given in conjunction with the visual clearance.
 
I'll usually pull up the most likely approach based on what ATIS is telling me to expect. If you're not sure, just ask.
 
unsafervguy said:
not only that, i bet your flight manual part 1 requires it. mine does.

bob
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There’s really nothing in my manual that says it which is weird. I’m going to dig a little deeper though. We load an approach in every time though even if we just load a visual with an extended centerline.
 
Yup we were required to have the approach loaded at ASA.
 
jordane93 said:
There’s really nothing in my manual that says it which is weird. I’m going to dig a little deeper though. We load an approach in every time though even if we just load a visual with an extended centerline.
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Are there GPS's that 'load' a Visual Approach? My world is the Garmin 430. Dialing in the final approach course with the OBS is the only way I can think of to 'load' a visual, so to speak. Is that what you meant?
 
We had FMS and I believe you could. Don't remember though.
 
luvflyin said:
Are there GPS's that 'load' a Visual Approach? My world is the Garmin 430. Dialing in the final approach course with the OBS is the only way I can think of to 'load' a visual, so to speak. Is that what you meant?
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I was mostly talking about my work plane. We can load a visual approach from the FMS and specify how miles out we want to draw the extended centerline. In the G6 Cirrus you can do the same thing load a visual approach and specify the how many miles you want to extend the centerline. Even when I’m flying with a 430, chances are there is at least an RNAV approach into the airport. If there aren’t any approaches, I do what you do and go intto OBS mode and spin the course to runway heading.
 
luvflyin said:
Are there GPS's that 'load' a Visual Approach? My world is the Garmin 430. Dialing in the final approach course with the OBS is the only way I can think of to 'load' a visual, so to speak. Is that what you meant?
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I have 530/430. You can just load the IAP (ILS or RNAV). If you load the full approach and not VTF, then if you get a clearance to go direct xxxxx with your visual approach clearance it is easy to highlight the fix and direct to it.
 
Radar Contact said:
I have 530/430. You can just load the IAP (ILS or RNAV). If you load the full approach and not VTF, then if you get a clearance to go direct xxxxx with your visual approach clearance it is easy to highlight the fix and direct to it.
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I think he was talking about actually loading a visual approach. In the G6 Cirrus, you can pick an approach that says “Visual XX” instead of “ILS XX” or “RNAV XX.” As far as I know, the 430/530 and the 650/750 can’t do it.
 
Agreed, not unusual. But it is one of the things that they don't teach in the books or ground classes for your instrument training.
Correct me if I'm wrong but they often use a waypoint/intersection for prevailing approach for the active rwy. If the airport has ILS, the chances are you get the FAF or IF for the ILS. If the airport has not ILS or LOC approaches, the chances are you get the IF or FAF for the RNAV approach.
Been there before, did not understand, asked for clarification and a temporary vector, got it resolved. No brainer.

A good rule of thumb: if in doubt, ask. :)
 
BigBadLou said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but they often use a waypoint/intersection for prevailing approach for the active rwy. If the airport has ILS, the chances are you get the FAF or IF for the ILS. If the airport has not ILS or LOC approaches, the chances are you get the IF or FAF for the RNAV approach.
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You are correct sir.
 
mscard88 said:
Yup we were required to have the approach loaded at ASA.
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Often that's in part due to 91.129, which is also referenced for Class C & B operations in turbine airplanes.

Most turbine pilots don't seem to be aware of that reg, though. ;)
 
MauleSkinner said:
Often that's in part due to 91.129, which is also referenced for Class C & B operations in turbine airplanes.

Most turbine pilots don't seem to be aware of that reg, though. ;)
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Perhaps but in the 121 world it's known I think as it's written in company policy manuals and/or flight operations manuals. So 121 pilots should be aware of it. Should.
 
jordane93 said:
I think he was talking about actually loading a visual approach. In the G6 Cirrus, you can pick an approach that says “Visual XX” instead of “ILS XX” or “RNAV XX.” As far as I know, the 430/530 and the 650/750 can’t do it.
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The GTNs can do it, you need the latest version of their software.
 
jordane93 said:
I think he was talking about actually loading a visual approach. In the G6 Cirrus, you can pick an approach that says “Visual XX” instead of “ILS XX” or “RNAV XX.” As far as I know, the 430/530 and the 650/750 can’t do it.
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Yeah. That's what I meant. Someone had said something about loading a Visual Approach. That was confusing my prehistoric, not evolved beyond the Garminian 430 era brain.
 
flyingron said:
POAR 123.14: Posters are required to familiarize themselves all available information including the FARs, approach plates, and legal counsel opinions on any matter before posting.
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No one can brief all the approaches for an airport, such as this one that has six. The OP was GPS equipped. For a visual it would be reasonable to set up the RNAV 26L, not the ILS 26L.
 
I was talking about posting on POA not flying the approach (that was a joke targetted at Palmpilot's previous post).
 
jordane93 said:
I always load an approach into the GPS even if I know they’re doing visuals for this very reason.
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This.... and stuff it into FF's PROCEDURES section. And Brief the plate. Never know when ATC is gonna spring the trap like what happened to the OP.
 
aterpster said:
No one can brief all the approaches for an airport, such as this one that has six. The OP was GPS equipped. For a visual it would be reasonable to set up the RNAV 26L, not the ILS 26L.
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I have yet to go to an airport that had ILS approaches that by default went to give me the RNAV instead of the ILS, or an instruction to go to an RNAV approach fix or course rather than the ILS a on a visual . if it were me, I’d always load up the ILS instead of the RNAV, unless there was a specific reason I wanted the RNAV and asked for it. Granted these days a majority of the fixes on the RNAV’s do match up with the fixes on the ILS. You’re local airport mileage may vary!
 
as for the whole visual approach discussion, at my previous airline and my current we would/we do always load an approach of some sort, of the airport had an ILS we would load that, if not we’d load either the visual or the RNAV, whatever was most appropriate. Or even the VOR in some south/central America cases
 
aterpster said:
For a visual it would be reasonable to set up the RNAV 26L, not the ILS 26L.
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I usually set up the RNAV as well because I prefer those to ILS. However, if the ATIS said to expect ILS or Visual 26L, I load the the ILS because it's most likely the controller will send you to the ILS FAF as opposed to the RNAV FAF. If they just have expect visual 26L and I get sent direct the ILS FAF like he was in this case, for me it's quicker to reload/activate the ILS and then direct to the marker.

Unfortunately you should be prepared for both as different facilities have different cultures and none are wrong. For example at PWK they advertise the RNAV 16 instead of the ILS so I send people direct to the RNAV FAF if needed for spacing. At DPA (same airspace) they advertise the ILS 2L so I typically send people to the ILS FAF if needed for spacing. I know in our airspace people typically use the ILS fixes over the RNAV fixes in conjunction with the visual. For whatever it's worth = not much.
 
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