Fly heading or ground track?

Yeti Niner Five

Yeti Niner Five

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Yeti Niner Five
Question for those with more experience and knowledge than me...when I'm given direction from approach control that goes something like, "Cherokee 12345, maintain VFR, turn 080 and remain at or below 3000", should I apply wind drift correction to the heading?

I've always assumed that since the controller only sees my ground track that his directions were adjustments to that ground track. But someone mentioned something the other day that made me question that and I haven't found the answer in the Pilot/Controller glossary.

So, what say you? Fly the ground track or heading? Does it matter if it's a terminal environment or enroute? Does it matter if I or the controller is drunk?
 
Yeti Niner Five said:
Question for those with more experience and knowledge than me...when I'm given direction from approach control that goes something like, "Cherokee 12345, maintain VFR, turn 080 and remain at or below 3000", should I apply wind drift correction to the heading?

I've always assumed that since the controller only sees my ground track that his directions were adjustments to that ground track. But someone mentioned something the other day that made me question that and I haven't found the answer in the Pilot/Controller glossary.

So, what say you? Fly the ground track or heading? Does it matter if it's a terminal environment or enroute? Does it matter if I or the controller is drunk?
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Fly the heading they assign. If they don't like the ground track they will adjust your heading.
 
Yeti Niner Five said:
Question for those with more experience and knowledge than me...when I'm given direction from approach control that goes something like, "Cherokee 12345, maintain VFR, turn 080 and remain at or below 3000", should I apply wind drift correction to the heading?

I've always assumed that since the controller only sees my ground track that his directions were adjustments to that ground track. But someone mentioned something the other day that made me question that and I haven't found the answer in the Pilot/Controller glossary.

So, what say you? Fly the ground track or heading? Does it matter if it's a terminal environment or enroute? Does it matter if I or the controller is drunk?
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Fly the heading. It should be issued as "fly heading 080", or "turn right heading 080", or "turn left heading 080".
 
Let' see. ATC tells you to "fly heading..." Do you

(a) read the dial in front of you and make your turn

or

(b) read the OAT, tune the Kollsman to 29.92 to get pressure altitude, whip out your E6B, convert IAS to TAS, ask to go off frequency for a minute, call Flight Watch for the winds aloft, turn the E6B over, do the wind triangle, figure out the wind correction angle, apply it to the number ATC gave you 5-10 minutes earlier and then make your turn.

Yes, GPS allows one to fly a track, but ATC heading instructions are still based on a system where some might not have one.
 
I will have to admit. I have yet to be issued "Fly ground track of 080...." from ATC. But anything can happen I guess.
 
Okay, but that begs the question. Let's say you're in a helicopter and ATC tells you "Fly heading 270" but you don't want to, can you just rotate the helicopter to point 270 and continue on the same course and still comply with the directive?
 
The helicopter compass will not change to 270 so you will not have complied with the instruction.
When I get those commands I try to figure out what is most advantages to me. If the command is to fly 080 but I had been flying 120 and the wind is out of the south, I'll fly a 080 track so I don't get so far off course. I will also adjust my speed if I am turned away from my course significantly.
I was once approaching the airport from the east but was given a "fly 090 for sequencing." I made the turn around and then started practicing slow flight until I got called back.
 
Yeti Niner Five said:
Question for those with more experience and knowledge than me...when I'm given direction from approach control that goes something like, "Cherokee 12345, maintain VFR, turn 080 and remain at or below 3000", should I apply wind drift correction to the heading?

I've always assumed that since the controller only sees my ground track that his directions were adjustments to that ground track. But someone mentioned something the other day that made me question that and I haven't found the answer in the Pilot/Controller glossary.

So, what say you? Fly the ground track or heading? Does it matter if it's a terminal environment or enroute? Does it matter if I or the controller is drunk?
Click to expand...

How in the heck would you even begin to measure your ground track? That's completely illogical to try and do that, and it doesn't matter where you are, terminal or enroute either.
The obvious answer is heading from the DG.
 
I turn towards the heading per my DG, verify using my compass, and then read my ground track from my gps or efb to make sure my ground track is reasonably close to my heading and makes sense to me. If ATC seems slow I have tweaked it a bit with them bit I've certainly been told to turn right / left by a certain amount presumably to correct for winds aloft.

I have also been told my track was x degrees off all afternoon and I need my equipment checked. In that particular case I'm positive it was winds aloft and that approach controller was used to people flying ground track.
 
If you're using ground track on windy days, you're just going to screw the approach controller up. They've already taken the winds aloft in to effect when they assign the heading. If they've been on position for a couple of hours, they're quite aware on what the winds are doing to the aircraft.

Same thing with GCA headings. The controller knows the winds at the surface and the winds at altitude so they assign initial headings to give an approximate track. After a few turns they've got the wind effects down and fine tune the headings. If you try and fly a track, it'll screw the approach up.
 
I've had ATC get frustrated with me when _they_ are trying to get the right WCA. "You keep drifting right". Yeah, there's a wind up here.

I wonder when ATC will start issuing "fly track _" when talking to /G aircraft?
 
dans2992 said:
I've had ATC get frustrated with me when _they_ are trying to get the right WCA. "You keep drifting right". Yeah, there's a wind up here.

I wonder when ATC will start issuing "fly track _" when talking to /G aircraft?
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Yes this :)
 
dans2992 said:
I've had ATC get frustrated with me when _they_ are trying to get the right WCA. "You keep drifting right". Yeah, there's a wind up here.

I wonder when ATC will start issuing "fly track _" when talking to /G aircraft?
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Then they will REALLY have to get the WCA dialed in to get it consistent with everyone else that isn't a /G.
 
Velocity173 said:
If you're using ground track on windy days, you're just going to screw the approach controller up. They've already taken the winds aloft in to effect when they assign the heading. If they've been on position for a couple of hours, they're quite aware on what the winds are doing to the aircraft.
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They hardly need a couple of hours to see that your radar tracks are in a different relative direction than everyone else around you. That you're heading right toward someone instead of being parallel or diverging.

IFR Rule No 1 - it's not about you.
 
midlifeflyer said:
They hardly need a couple of hours to see that your radar tracks are in a different relative direction than everyone else around you. That you're heading right toward someone instead of being parallel or diverging.

IFR Rule No 1 - it's not about you.
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Sure, it takes maybe 10 mins to gauge the winds on position. Point is, they know the winds, and if everyone is doing the same thing (flying headings) it keeps things predictable. Plus, it's easier flying a heading than a track anyway.
 
Wow, this is still going?

The answer is easy - you fly the gyro. Period.

My CFI taught me that...hopefully yours did/will too.
 
Clearly, they want you to fly heading when they say "heading".

If they wanted a specified ground track, they'd put you on a radial or an airway or just tell you to do direct from present position.
 
FastEddieB said:
Clearly, they want you to fly heading when they say "heading".

If they wanted a specified ground track, they'd put you on a radial or an airway or just tell you to do direct from present position.
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Not always
 
Sac Arrow said:
Then they will REALLY have to get the WCA dialed in to get it consistent with everyone else that isn't a /G.
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All it would really take is one query to a /G aircraft "N12345 - say heading".

There are some ares where I'd have to believe nearly EVERYONE is /G (or VFR GPS equipped at minimum) ie landing at a primary Class B airport, etc.
 
How about on a VFR departure? Do you fly rwy heading or groundtrack if you want to stay in the pattern?
 
Matthew said:
How about on a VFR departure? Do you fly rwy heading or groundtrack if you want to stay in the pattern?
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Traffic patterns are ground tracks.

"Fly runway heading" issued by ATC is flying the actual magnetic heading of the runway. Don't know of many controllers that would use that phraseology for closed traffic though.
 
ja_user said:
U keep it looking like a rectangle
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That's my take on it, too.

The noise abatement signs at OJC say something like, "Fly rwy heading until 500 AGL". I can't remember the exact wording.

Flying rwy heading can drift you right over top of the grade school they want you to avoid.
 
Matthew said:
That's my take on it, too.

The noise abatement signs at OJC say something like, "Fly rwy heading until 500 AGL". I can't remember the exact wording.

Flying rwy heading can drift you right over top of the grade school they want you to avoid.
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With noise abatement signs, I would assume that your ground track is the priority, at least for VFR flights.
 
What the heck is this GPS thingy I've been hearing about lately?
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I have heard it stands for "Get Pilot's Savings" but not sure :).
 
Matthew said:
How about on a VFR departure? Do you fly rwy heading or groundtrack if you want to stay in the pattern?
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You are going to fly the ground track but you are not being instructed by a controller at that time to fly a heading. If you had just departed the runway and a controller told you to fly heading 180 you would fly heading 180, you wouldn't concern yourself with what ground track that resulted in.

With no heading instructions from a controller the pattern is basically a ground reference maneuver.
 
They say 'heading', I give them their heading, simple as that. Heading is always by definition the longitudinal axis of the hull referenced against one of the earth's poles.
 
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champ driver said:
What the heck is this GPS thingy I've been hearing about lately?
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This little box that finds its position in a 3D space between satellites. That reference when coupled with a database of the surface of the earth and things on it let us know where we are in relationship to where we want to be and the things we want to avoid along the way. Really fascinating device and when used in conjunction with everything else, especially a fuel flow gauge, allows one to really maximize the efficiency of light air travel and keep the costs to within a tolerable level of outrageous.

BTW, we spent trillions of dollars developing all this. The SVT terrain database was mapped by the Space Shuttle. You can make full use of it in uncertified iPad format for less than $2k including an AHRS, <$3k if you don't already own an iPad. You can get it in fully certified IFR-SVT format for around $30k.
 
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Henning said:
This little box that finds its position in a 3D space between satellites. That reference when coupled with a database of the surface of the earth and things on it let us know where we are in relationship to where we want to be and the things we want to avoid along the way. Really fascinating device and when used in conjunction with everything else, especially a fuel flow gauge, allows one to really maximize the efficiency of light air travel and keep the costs to within a tolerable level of outrageous.

BTW, we spent trillions of dollars developing all this. The SVT terrain database was mapped by the Space Shuttle. You can make full use of it in uncertified iPad format for less than $2k including an AHRS, <$3k if you don't already own an iPad. You can get it in fully certified IFR-SVT format for around $30k.
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Ok , now what's an ipad?
 
One might add that despite it's technically wondrous sophistication the GPS has no idea what your heading is.
 
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Since everyone in your vicinity is flying in the same wind, by assigning everyone a heading it automatically compensates for the wind effects with respect to the goal of separating traffic. The same principle applies with altitude. As long as everyone has the correct baro setting dialed in, separation is assured if they all fly their assigned altitude. Note that this principle does not apply to assured separation with the ground and objects affixed to it :).
 
Yeti Niner Five said:
...So, what say you? Fly the ground track or heading? Does it matter if it's a terminal environment or enroute? Does it matter if I or the controller is drunk?
Click to expand...

I wanted to go back to Yeti's original post to lay out some fundamentals that anyone that has a pilot's license should know and maybe Yeti's experience level is not to that point yet but this should be explained to him and I don't see it in the replies (maybe it has been and I missed it) so here goes. It's really pretty simple.

HEADING is the number you see on your compass

COURSE is your ground track.

Unless there is no wind or the wind is directly on your nose or tail the Heading and Course numbers are not going to be the same and a ground based controller is never going to direct you to fly a Course, he's always going to direct you to fly a Heading.
 
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