Flour Bombing Question

kimberlyanne546

kimberlyanne546

Final Approach
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Kimberly
So - I am all set to participate in my very first flour bombing (weather / money / plane permitting).

It is very casual and last year they changed the time last minute and I missed it, so nothing is for certain.

This year they are using rubber chickens instead of flour to help raise money for their group (I think, though someone said last month they gave the chickens out for free).

Can anyone share pointers? My pilot bomber and myself are brand new PPL and have never seen this type of event.

They built a "village" of houses that we bomb which is kind of fun. A target circle is painted around them on the grass next to the taxiway. I think everyone sets their altimeter to "0" on the ground and then flies 150 feet.

Obviously, I'm not going to "carpet bomb" like this guy did:

http://papapetaluma.smugmug.com/Part...5642&k=CGWNp9f
 
Kimberly, don't go first.

You will need to observe how far in advance of the target you release the bombs. This will be particularly true if they use rubber chickens, they won't have the same trajectory as a bag of flour.

Good luck. Have someone on the ground video your bomb runs and please post it for us! -Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
Kimberly, don't go first.

You will need to observe how far in advance of the target you release the bombs. This will be particularly true if they use rubber chickens, they won't have the same trajectory as a bag of flour.

Good luck. Have someone on the ground video your bomb runs and please post it for us! -Skip
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I wonder if my BF still has his old camcorder. It is easier to use than my cell phone camcorder. Worst case, I will hand my long lens / old Nikon SLR to someone on the ground (photos only). I'm going to the monthly meeting next week and hope to join their group (more dues to pay, sigh). I think you have to be a member to participate.
 
Story Time.

Back in my utralight days at the annual fly in we did a candy drop for the kids. They lined up on the side of the runway and the candy was dropped from a low and slow UL. The kids ran in to get the candy and for some reason, still unexplained to this day, the UL circled back and dropped more candy on top of the kids still on the runway. It was ugly. :rofl: kids crying, running back to their mom as holding their heads, dropping the candy they picked up. Oh the humanity! :rofl:

No serious injuries were reported until the pilot landed and 200 angry parents got ahold of them. :eek:

The candy drop was cancelled for next year, and we went to the flour drop. ;)
 
Watch the competitors that go first. Time the fall of the chicken. This will be a constant. Compute your true ground speed and use those numbers, (Time of fall and speed) to determine how far from the target you need to be when you drop. If you have a GPS you can then build a drop point with precision
 
Geico266 said:
Story Time.

Back in my utralight days at the annual fly in we did a candy drop for the kids. They lined up on the side of the runway and the candy was dropped from a low and slow UL. The kids ran in to get the candy and for some reason, still unexplained to this day, the UL circled back and dropped more candy on top of the kids still on the runway. It was ugly. :rofl: kids crying, running back to their mom as holding their heads, dropping the candy they picked up. Oh the humanity! :rofl:

No serious injuries were reported until the pilot landed and 200 angry parents got ahold of them. :eek:

The candy drop was cancelled for next year, and we went to the flour drop. ;)
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ROFLMAO


Your are getting good advice. We dropped weighted streamers like the hot air ballooners use. Watch your wind as they will drift off target. Have Fun
 
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A few notes:
  • Do not use flaps or try to fly too slow. Accidents happen that way. Keep your speed down, but not anywhere near stall. We use a minimum of 80 knots IAS in the AYA competition. We also use 200 AGL as a minimum altitude.
  • Try to set a level run-in of at least half a mile at the planned release altitude, and stabilize speed and altitude early. Keep in mind that staying on speed and on altitude is critical to accurate bombing.
  • Develop hand signals for bombardier to pilot for left-right corrections so you don't have to rely on voice comm -- when you open the canopy or window and stick your head out, the intercom becomes nearly useless.
  • Make sure everything is secured in the cockpit. After the event, we've recovered charts, headsets, sunglasses, coffee cups -- even a small embroidered pillow.
  • Do not try to toss, throw, pitch, or otherwise apply any vector to the bomb at release. Just hold your arm down the side and simply open your hand. Any ejection vector you add will probably not be consistent, and that will affect bombing accuracy.
  • The typical flour bomb (a couple of cups of flour in a paper sandwich bag) is a very high-drag weapon. If you watch these competitions, you'll see the down-range travel of very short from release to impact.
  • There will also be some lateral drift from any crosswind, so learn to make that correction by having the pilot fly parallel to the run-in line on the upwind side. The drift won't be huge, but good drift correction can easily be the difference between winning and finishing out of the money.
  • Setting the altimeter to zero on the ground isn't always an option. We've run these competitions at elevations of several thousand feet. Our practice has always been to set the altimeter at the ramp or THRE elevation (as appropriate) and then just add 200.
  • Do not try to spot your own hit! That's a real good way to create a low-altitude stall situation.
  • Don't use flaps. It creates extra downwash which can change the bomb trajectory. If you do, make sure the plane is climbing and accelerating and at a safe altitude before retracting them. I've seen too many sinks from low altitude/speed when someone hits the flap switch/lever too soon, and it really doesn't help your accuracy
 
No flaps? My bomber thought I would need lots of flaps to go very slow. But you're right, I would not be able to see anything. I plan to go at least once, in each plane, to practice (without a bomber or bomb). CTAF calls are "normal" until you perform a low pass - since you climb to TPA and do a full pattern, right?
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
No flaps? My bomber thought I would need lots of flaps to go very slow.
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That's a good way to lose control of the aircraft at very low altitude. I saw folks do some really dumb things in that regard before we made the "no flaps" and 80 knots minimum rules for the AYA's annual competition. Keep your speed up to provide good maneuvering margin, and leave the flaps up.

CTAF calls are "normal" until you perform a low pass - since you climb to TPA and do a full pattern, right?
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The event organizers should have a briefing on how to fly the pattern, and what calls to make and when. If you don't get a briefing sheet with all the information on the event ahead of time to study, and a formal "all crews" briefing immediately before the event, just walk away from that circus.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's a good way to lose control of the aircraft at very low altitude. I saw folks do some really dumb things in that regard before we made the "no flaps" and 80 knots minimum rules for the AYA's annual competition. Keep your speed up to provide good maneuvering margin, and leave the flaps up.

The event organizers should have a briefing on how to fly the pattern, and what calls to make and when. If you don't get a briefing sheet with all the information on the event ahead of time to study, and a formal "all crews" briefing immediately before the event, just walk away from that circus.
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Ahead of time? I don't even know if there is a sign up. I'm going to their meeting (monthly) next week to ask all my questions.
 
Remember Ron, her 150 will fly really well at 40MPH ,will the grumman?
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Ahead of time? I don't even know if there is a sign up. I'm going to their meeting (monthly) next week to ask all my questions.
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Yes. The day of the event there should be a formal, mandatory, safety briefing for all pilots. That's just one sign of a well-run event. Cell phones off, everyone listens.

Weather, winds, forecast, reminder that there will be numerous aircraft in the pattern and perhaps non-participating aircraft, known area obstacles (charted or uncharted), ramp procedures (got marshallers or no?), how aircraft will be staged and launched/recovered (20 airplanes running around the pattern isn't smart), inbound and outbound taxiway lanes, pattern direction and reminder of which side of the airport, emergency procedures (who does what and who goes where... 25 people dialing 911 simultaneously is counter-productive when an ambulance is needed), possible emergency landing sites, reminders about proper radio discipline in the pattern, a way for the organizers to call a "knock it off" if something becomes unsafe and what airborne pilots will be expected to do in the event of such a radio call, a reminder to have enough fuel on board to travel to the next closest airport with legal reserves if an aircraft suddenly becomes disabled on the runway, and finally the big caution to everyone not to fly too slowly... and that you're there for fun, and nobody has fun if someone crashes or gets hurt.

Also Safety reminders for ground personnel (the choice to switch from the traditional flour bag to rubber chickens is a significant safety hazard, honestly... A rubber chicken will bounce and could easily hit a judge...), Do not ever walk backwards on the ramp, everyone on the flight line has a high-visibility vest on or they don't go on the ramp (period), props are invisible... do not walk in front of any aircraft that's starting or running, no children or spectators beyond a pre-determined safety line, Etc.

A good Safety briefing will have all of the above and probably a little more. A briefing gets everyone's heads in the game.

Perhaps also a document handed out stating that technically, no one participating as PIC is within the letter of the law since they're not decending below pattern altitude with the "intent to land", and without this safety brief they would probably also be considered to be putting people or property on the ground in harms way... and that the PIC assumes all risk involved including FAA enforcement action if it occurs. (And a reminder that guaranteed... there will be video cameras running with visible tail numbers and likely someone with a handheld radio close enough to the video camera that it will also be recording recording voices.) No one likely has a low-level waiver. "Aerobatic" maneuvers of high bank or non-normal "zoom" climbs, high-speed passes, etc... are discouraged. All flying is done at the discretion of the PIC.

But besides all that stuff, there's tons of safely run flour-bombing events every year. FAA seems to look the other way if they're conducted safely. They've been showing more interest lately with that "Turkey drop" being cancelled last year. The Internet and YouTube is not your friend at these events.

If y'all show up, act like a bunch of yahoos without a plan, and have a crash... those videotapes will be evidence at everyone's hearing before an ALJ eventually. One video they'll have enough to hang every pilot who participated if it was truly that utterly out of control. Show no effort at having at least a semblance of an "Air Boss" and a Safety Briefing, and you're going to be hung out to dry.

Pretty sure that's where Ron was headed. :)
 
As others have suggested, it's best not to go first, but watch others from the ground before your turn.

The one time I tried this (it was a pumpkin, at our Halloween pumpkin drop), I watched to see what identifiable landmark (runway marking, vegetation by the runway etc.) a plane was over when it made a good drop. I made sure the plane I watched had a similar airspeed (another C150), and I made sure that plane appeared to be at the recommended altitude, which makes a big difference. Then I went up to take my turn, and while flying over the runway at the recommended altitude, I watched for that landmark while telling my passenger when to drop.
 
Good advice from you guys. I'll be Kimberly's bomber. It's obvious that at low altitudes, slow airspeed leaves little room for error. I am thinking 75-80 mph IAS (our old 150's show miles, not knots) is appropriate? Kimberly is a stickler for coordination. Reading the above replies also makes me rethink 30 degrees flaps (I wouldn't think of 40, great for short field landings but way too much drag). How about 10? Not a lot of drag but it gets the nose down a bit for a little better visibility and there's a minimum of sink as they are retracted to climb back to TPA (or whatever the rules state we need to climb to).
Flying is a continual learning experience and I (we) appreciate the advice from more experienced aviators on this board. I'm sure we'll get plenty of advice from the other participants at the event as well. We're gonna win this thing and if by some chance we don't, we'll have a safe, fun time trying!
 
How NOT to do it:






Btw, I couldn't get it to embed and I don't know why.
 
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Just like a good photo mission,..

PILOT FLIES THE PLANE!

Photographer / Bomber direct the pilot as needed, but the PILOT is in focus on the plane airspeed, coordination, configuration, etc. This must be clear to each of you, as Flying low and slow won't allow you much room for fixing breaks in the accident chain.
 
Listen to Ron. He's been doing this with the AYA for decades.

NO FLAPS. Pilot flies the plane, and does not "worry" about the bomb drop. Let your BN do that. It is why he's there.
 
Too bad that the liability ambulance chasers have taken over the world. I remember a fly in I attended years ago for a display/recruiting mission where they had a car bowling event. An old Toyota was positioned by the runway and bowling balls were used....great fun!!!!!
 
Wouldn't that destroy the bowling ball and arn't they kind of expensive?
 
So the bowling balls were launched via aircraft? Assume they were all high wing???

M-80's would be more fun. :D
 
Captain said:
Wouldn't that destroy the bowling ball and arn't they kind of expensive?
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Having attended a number of shoots where Bowling ball mortars are frequently found I can tell you with some certainty that bowling balls are tough. I've seen them fired 1000 or more feet in the air and 500yds downrange with no injury to the ball. Now a car or other object downrange might not be so lucky if hit by one of these durable spheres. Shooters normally use BB's that come from a Bowling Alley's stock of well used ones. They do wear out and get replaced and so do the pins. Most of the ones used in shoots have small cracks or chips which one would think could allow more damage to occur from shooting but still they fly and land undamaged to be used another time.
Interesting to see....


Frank
 
Anthony said:
So the bowling balls were launched via aircraft? Assume they were all high wing???

M-80's would be more fun. :D
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Yes, same format as flour bombing, but the target was a old car. It has been many years, I think this was in the early 80s, but I do not recall anyone bouncing a ball across their Cherokee's wing. :D
 
DaleB said:
Right up until one ended up lit in the cockpit.
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Of course I was joking, so therefore the :D

I would just rig up something remote, under the wing, you know right below the gas tank. :D
 
Threefingeredjack said:
Yes, same format as flour bombing, but the target was a old car. It has been many years, I think this was in the early 80s, but I do not recall anyone bouncing a ball across their Cherokee's wing. :D
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OTOH, I have seen a number of tail strikes in flour bombing contests. With a sandwich bag of flour, it's funny to all and easy to clean. With a bowling ball...:yikes:
 
In addition to the discussion above about organizing such events, we at the AYA have spent a lot of years working out how to coordinate this with airport management for their approval. We have a lot of safety rules and we do a serious site survey to select a target location.

One thing for sure with amateur bombing crews is that you'll have bombs scattered over a very wide area around the target -- occasionally up to 1000 feet long or short, and 200-300 feet either side. You must be sure those bombs will all fall on airport property, and not on things like parked aircraft, VOR stations, ASOS installations, etc. Finding a target location with easily identified pointers (i.e., just beyond the midfield taxiway between the runway and the parallel, or abeam the wind T on the other side of the runway) also helps avoid gross errors. Once we've worked all that out, we brief the management.

In addition, we have an "Air Boss" keeping the pattern sorted, and a safety observer in the target area to call "no drop" if it appears the aircraft is too far off the run-in line to the target or will drop too far beyond the target. We have the airport issue a NOTAM that the event will be in progress so transient aircraft are aware of what's happening and can work with the Air Boss so we stay out of the transient's way.

Target selection is another issue. Those without formal training in target identification may not be so good at spotting what you put out there unless it's really obvious. An 55-gallon oil drum painted orange is a great choice, especially if placed on a big tarp of a color contrasting both the target and the surrounding terrain (i.e., don't use a green tarp on grass or a tan tarp on desert dirt). We also provide the crews with pictures of the target from the air -- you'd be amazed how different it looks sometimes from up there compared to down here.
 
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Setting up a set of rules that are overly restrictive will cause a lot of the flyers to opt out.

when you have a well organized club which all fly similar aircraft you can set a rule that says no slower than X, but when you have a mix of aircraft the speed may not be right for every one.
 
Tom-D said:
Setting up a set of rules that are overly restrictive will cause a lot of the flyers to opt out.
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OTOH, failing to impose and enforce a good set of rules is a good way for your group to get a bad repuation so it isn't welcome there or elsewhere (airport managers talk to each other) in the future. AYA has held its conventions all over the US and Canada, and one of the things that breaks down airport management opposition to our flying events is the stack of references we have from other airports. We just tell them to call the managers at the last three or four locations and ask about us, and that's the end of the opposition, even where other groups have fouled the waters before us.

Also, from a competitive standpoint, setting a fairly high minimum speed turns it into a contest of bombing skill, not who's got the lowest stall speed.
 
re: Cap'n Ron's bombing tips (tm) ... and they said all that military training had no civilian use... ;) :D
 
gkainz said:
re: Cap'n Ron's bombing tips (tm) ... and they said all that military training had no civilian use... ;) :D
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FWIW, we "old pros" in the AYA don't compete in that event. After a former A-7 pilot and I took 1-2 two years in a row, we decided we should run the event instead of competing in it. We also do a seminar on basic bombing techniques the day before the event, and since we started doing that, the number of gross errors has gone way down and the number of bombs within 50 feet has gone way up.
 
I'm sure there's a good joke in there somewhere about equiping and training a population of GA pilots in the fine art of bombing, similar to ...
http://www.guy-sports.com/humor/jokes/jokes_general.htm
--------------------------------------------------
American General Reinwald TaleFunny Army Stories

Here we have a clash of stereotypes, a USA one star general and a female left wing reporter. The resulting interview builds up to the sort of put down that we all wish we could deliver.

Marine Corps General Reinwald was interviewed on the radio concerning guns and children.

This is a portion of an American National Public Radio (NPR) interview between a female interviewer and US Marine Corps General Reinwald who was about to sponsor a Boy Scout Troop visiting his military installation. Incidentally, the battle of words took place on a Tuesday.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: So, General Reinwald, what things are you going to teach these young boys when they visit your base?

GENERAL REINWALD: We' re going to teach the Boy Scouts climbing, canoeing, archery and shooting.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible, isn't it?

GENERAL REINWALD: I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the rifle range.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?

GENERAL REINWALD: I don't see how. We will be teaching them proper rifle discipline before they even touch a firearm.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: But you're equipping them to become violent killers.

GENERAL REINWALD: Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?

The radio went silent and the interview ended.
------------------------------------------------
yes, I know it's urban myth ... still a great story

footnote from above link
----------------------------------------
Footnote - Confession time

The saga of General Reinwald is an urban myth. Internet archaeologists have traced this funny army back to a Welsh broadcast with a scout master in 1997. As with all good stories, in the intervening years it has been adapted and Americanized. Will and Guy thank Nancy Hoagland for supplying this extra research and insight into the myth of General Reinwald. However, we do have more funny army stories....
----------------------------------------
 
Ron is being too humble. What he fails to mention is the hard points under the wings of his Tiger, and the .50 cals IN the wings which he'll gladly use if he loses. :D

Both options on the late 70's Tiger, which was not offered in later models due to the growing PC environment of the times. :)
 
Thank you everyone for so much advice! I do think one guy went solo, but then again he had a lot of experience. I will have to ask if he went solo. Also, I think they used to do 200 feet AGL but changed it this year to 150 feet AGL. Not sure about briefings but I see them practice on "off" weekends for fun (the event happens monthly in the good weather months).

My meeting with them is next Wednesday - what SPECIFICALLY should I ask? I sent an email to the website several weeks ago but the webmaster wrote me back saying he'd forward it to the event coordinator. Never heard back from anyone.

Last year, I wanted to watch (was still a student). I showed up at 3pm and it was all over. Turns out at 9am they canceled their poker run for the day (not enough planes) and did the flour bomb instead. This is what makes me think they are not "organized" since the bomb was posted online as 3pm. They seem more laid back.
 
Anthony said:
Ron is being too humble. What he fails to mention is the hard points under the wings of his Tiger, and the .50 cals IN the wings which he'll gladly use if he loses. :D

Both options on the late 70's Tiger, which was not offered in later models due to the growing PC environment of the times. :)
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Those were offered on Grummans of that era, but not AA-5B's, and they weren't .50 calibres, they were 20mm.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
This is what makes me think they are not "organized" since the bomb was posted online as 3pm. They seem more laid back.
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You want to have a couple-three planes out practicing, that's one thing. You want to run a competition with 40-50 airplanes involved as we do every hear at the AYA convention (I think we did 65 one year), you'd better be very well organized and have the operation very well controlled or you'll either end up with the mother of all Charlie Fox's if you're lucky, or get metal bent/people hurt if you're not.

Seriously.

This will be my 14th AYA convention as the organization's Safety Director, and the Spot Landing and Bomb Drop competition is one of my principal concerns every year. Fortunately, I have the support of the officers and members of the AYA, who all understand the importance of making this a safe, organized event, because if it isn't both, nobody has fun.
 
Ron Levy said:
You want to have a couple-three planes out practicing, that's one thing. You want to run a competition with 40-50 airplanes involved as we do every hear at the AYA convention (I think we did 65 one year), you'd better be very well organized and have the operation very well controlled or you'll either end up with the mother of all Charlie Fox's if you're lucky, or get metal bent/people hurt if you're not.

Seriously.

This will be my 14th AYA convention as the organization's Safety Director, and the Spot Landing and Bomb Drop competition is one of my principal concerns every year. Fortunately, I have the support of the officers and members of the AYA, who all understand the importance of making this a safe, organized event, because if it isn't both, nobody has fun.
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I will need to ask but they said last month "very few people" participated. This event may be much smaller than we think. Again, I'm a newbie here, and once I've participated I will know more. If it is fun I will want to participate again.
 
BiffJ said:
Having attended a number of shoots where Bowling ball mortars are frequently found I can tell you with some certainty that bowling balls are tough. I've seen them fired 1000 or more feet in the air and 500yds downrange with no injury to the ball. Now a car or other object downrange might not be so lucky if hit by one of these durable spheres. Shooters normally use BB's that come from a Bowling Alley's stock of well used ones. They do wear out and get replaced and so do the pins. Most of the ones used in shoots have small cracks or chips which one would think could allow more damage to occur from shooting but still they fly and land undamaged to be used another time.
Interesting to see....


Frank
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Years ago in the Civil War Skirmish Association (think, smaller west coast cousin of the North-South Skirmish Association in the east) we had a crew from the Monterey, CA area that built a mortar sized to shoot bowling balls. They had a "try ball" with about 40 holes drilled in it that really whistled when shot. And it was quite re-useable. I threatend to put bowling pins down range for them when we held our Nationals at the NRA Whittington Center in 1982, but the guys from Kansas didn't have enough room to bring them with them.

These guys also built a mountain howitzer sized to shoot oil cans (remember when motor oil came in cans?) full of concrete. Quite a toy. :D And really rough on trees in the impact area.
 
Ron Levy said:
Those were offered on Grummans of that era, but not AA-5B's, and they weren't .50 calibres, they were 20mm.
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When you get an F-14 let me know. I'd gladly fly back seat. :D
 
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