Flight time as compensation/ is it for hire?

BTW, here's how this stuff can happen...

There is a case I'm aware of where a pilot was talking to his friend and saying he was planning to fly that weekend, but hadn't chosen a destination yet. Friend says "Hey, I need to get a package to my client at XYZ, can you take it there for me?" Pilot says "Sure, but you can't pay me since I'm just a private pilot, but I'm gonna fly anyway so I'll just go to XYZ and drop off the package." So, Friend gives package to Pilot, who drops it off at XYZ.

Completely unbeknownst to pilot, Friend decides to bill his client for "Air Freight." Client complains to FAA. FAA finds pilot and dings him for an illegal commercial operation and lets him sit on the ground for 90 days.

This **** does happen, unlikely as it may seem. Choose wisely.
 
BTW, if you have to ask whether or not something is compensation, I'll save you the time: It is.
 
Just go fly your friend and if he/she throws you a couple bucks, take it. Split the cost, get a free meal, whatever.

We are talking about the FAA, not the NSA. Work it out with your friend and theres nothing to stress about.
 
Or let him credit card the fuel and "promise" to pay him back. I don't think the secret police division of the FAA is going to hunt you down. I'm not buying that freight story at the top of the page.
If you're cocerned enough to fret over it just don't do it. Problem solved.
 
My concern would be what happens in the unlikely event of an accident. Your passenger’s attorneys will argue that you weren’t licensed for what amounts to a commercial operation, and of course your insurance company would be thinking this same thing so they don’t have to pay your claim.

It’s not the FAA you need to worry about - it’s a judge and jury that could do you in.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
If I bear ALL costs
Click to expand...

flyingcheesehead said:
Nope. Not without "common purpose". If you don't have to be there for the meeting, you're being compensated (half-compensated?) for flight time
Click to expand...

Read The Friendly Quote please. The OP predicated the entire question on him paying for everything. There is no compensation. This is not a commercial operation because there is no commerce.

This whole thread illustrates what I meant previously - if you are paranoid enough, 61.113 can convince you to never fly with anyone for any reason.
 
Last edited:
Vince R said:
My concern would be what happens in the unlikely event of an accident. Your passenger’s attorneys will argue that you weren’t licensed for what amounts to a commercial operation, and of course your insurance company would be thinking this same thing so they don’t have to pay your claim.
Click to expand...
That's exactly why the Plaintiff's lawyer WON'T make that claim. They don't want to destroy coverage any more than you do.
 
iflyvfr said:
He's just asking the question, it is up to US to over analyze it!
Click to expand...

And we DEFINITELY will take care of that!:D

PilotRocker said:
So if I am a member of a flying club and hold a private pilots license and 3rd class medical, can I ferry a club plane for maintenance to another airfield and record the time in my log book if I am not paying for the flight time as that cost is being born by the flying club as part of routine maintenance?
Click to expand...

Probably not, better scenario is flight school that says can you run this plane around the pattern post maintenance to check things out (same airfield)...am guessing same answer.

Fearless Tower said:
That brings up a good question: if you take a girl out on a date and take her up flying and then you get some action.....is that compensation?
Click to expand...

Depends on your definition of "action" :eek:...

flyingcheesehead said:
BTW, here's how this stuff can happen...

.... Friend says "Hey, I need to get a package to my client at XYZ, can you take it there for me?" Pilot says "Sure, but you can't pay me since I'm just a private pilot, but I'm gonna fly anyway so I'll just go to XYZ and drop off the package." ...

Completely unbeknownst to pilot, Friend decides to bill his client for "Air Freight." Client complains to FAA. FAA finds pilot and dings him for an illegal commercial operation and lets him sit on the ground for 90 days.
Click to expand...

bflynn said:
Read The Friendly Quote please. The OP predicated the entire question on him paying for everything. There is no compensation. This is not a commercial operation because there is no commerce.
Click to expand...

I was leaning your direction until I saw cheaseheads message in red above. This is the stuff that makes everyone confused.
 
danhagan said:
I was leaning your direction until I saw cheaseheads message in red above. This is the stuff that makes everyone confused.
Click to expand...

And this is how laws get corrupted. You're now talking about violating 61.113 when nothing that is a part of 61.113 or even an ALJ ruling is happening. Remember that what you did was give a friend a lift somewhere?

Where is the compensation? Where is the hire? You cannot compensate yourself for flight time that you pay for yourself. The aircraft is not generating compensation by virtue of the trip being taken. The aircraft is not being flown pursuant to a business. The pilot is not paying less than a pro-rata share, the pilot is paying 100%. There is no holding out.

Stop the paranoia.
 
In the case of flying club ferrying a plane for maintenance, what do you all think of this take? If it it is an equity club with a buy in, I would think you would be ok. All members would be considered owners and pay equal dues. All club members have a interest in getting the plane to MX, and your dues would be your pro rata share.
 
Last edited:
I think people are reading too much into it. Its my understanding that you as a PP you are allowed not only share the cost of fuel but total cost of flying i. e. calculated hourly cost of flying including fix costs , engine time etc. Not that i will ever ask my friend to pay like that but it is allowed.
 
blueskyMD said:
I think people are reading too much into it. Its my understanding that you as a PP you are allowed not only share the cost of fuel but total cost of flying i. e. calculated hourly cost of flying including fix costs , engine time etc. Not that i will ever ask my friend to pay like that but it is allowed.
Click to expand...
Except that the regulation explicitly lists which costs you are allowed to pay only your pro rata share of: fuel, oil, airport expenditures, and rental fees.
 
blueskyMD said:
I think people are reading too much into it. Its my understanding that you as a PP you are allowed not only share the cost of fuel but total cost of flying i. e. calculated hourly cost of flying including fix costs , engine time etc. Not that i will ever ask my friend to pay like that but it is allowed.
Click to expand...
Wrong.

"FAR 61.113 (c) dictates how we may share the cost of flying with passengers. The regulation says that a private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees."

https://pilot-protection-services.a...ust/01/pro-rata-cost-sharing-the-math-matters
 
iamtheari said:
Except that the regulation explicitly lists which costs you are allowed to pay only your pro rata share of: fuel, oil, airport expenditures, and rental fees.
Click to expand...
It's nice to see someone actually reading the reg! :yes:
 
bflynn said:
Read The Friendly Quote please. The OP predicated the entire question on him paying for everything. There is no compensation. This is not a commercial operation because there is no commerce.
Click to expand...

Speaking of reading quotes... Read the quote right above what I wrote. It was talking about sharing costs, and that's what I was responding to, which is why, you know, I put it RIGHT ABOVE WHAT I WROTE.

:sigh::dunno::frown2:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Speaking of reading quotes... Read the quote right above what I wrote. It was talking about sharing costs, and that's what I was responding to, which is why, you know, I put it RIGHT ABOVE WHAT I WROTE.
Click to expand...

Well, it had nothing to do with the thread topic. I think everyone knows that you cannot take compensation except under very specific conditions. But almost immediately everyone either didn't read what the OP wrote or ignored it in favor of the easy "gotcha" answer. It's kinda like asking a question about landing on a pavement runway and then someone saying "oh, no, if you do that on a grass runway, it will be a disaster! What are you thinking?!" It is irrelevant to the ongoing discussion.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top