Flight time as compensation/ is it for hire?

TheGolfPilot

TheGolfPilot

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A friend wants me to fly him across the state in my own airplane to go to a meeting I have no part in. I'm not set up part 135, so I would be acting as a Private Pilot. If I bare ALL costs, basically saying, wow thanks for reminding me I want to fly there, would you like to tag along? Would that be legal? Or would the flight time be considered compensation although I am paying for it.
 
If you're paying for all of it how are you being compensated?
 
I believe there was some interpretation where "goodwill" could be consider compensation but I think that's only if you have a business relationship with that person. Someone else will be along with a more accurate answer.

IMHO, if no money or goods are changing hands and you don't advertise what you're doing it should be fine. I think you'd even be fine if he paid half the expense but there are all sorts of little gotchas on that as far as legality.
 
I think you’re over analyzing the reg waaaay too much. How would the flight time be considered compensation, if you’re footing the bill for it?

Like Cowman and Zeld said, you can look at this from many different angles, but the truth of the matter is that it’s just a cross country flight and he’s riding along with you. The method by which the two of you settle up at the end is between you and him.
 
You're allowed to get shared fuel costs without bring considered being for hire. Doing a friend a favor.
 
Ryanb said:
I think you’re over analyzing the reg waaaay too much. How would the flight time be considered compensation, if you’re footing the bill for it?
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You see, you are applying logic. When it comes to FAA regulation, sometimes you have to throw logic out. For what it's worth, there is an enforcement action that held that where someone gave flights at his own expense to patrons of a bar and grille (that he himself did not own) that the purpose was to garner goodwill, and therefore it was a violation.

https://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/OnODocuments/Aviation/5061.PDF

Although, in fairness to the FAA and the NTSB, there were other issue going on. The patrons had paid for their experience, even though there was no evidence that the money went to the pilot/owner of the aircraft. So, the FAA and NTSB looked at it from the consumer's expectations. Since they paid, they could expect a commercial operation. But what they got instead was a mere private pilot with his own private aircraft. Thus, the outcome was not really so unreasonable.
 
I hate to be a rule breaker but even if you do pro rata share who cares if you don't have a common purpose to the letter of the law. Dont ask, dont tell, don't do it every flight.
The FAA isn't gonna track you on flight aware, pull video tapes from FBO surveillance to see that two people made the trip, send an ASI to question you about the purpose of your flight, and do forensic accounting on your bank accounts to see if money changed hands. The way I see it your following the spirit of the law(no 134.5 illegal charter thing) not doing anything unsafe.
Now if you do it every single time or for multiple people then id raise questions.
 
Its a reasonable thing to think about, since the FAA will get involved should anything at all go wrong. That said if there's any worry, don't charge anything. What's the difference between you flying from point A to point B and you flying from point A to point B with a passenger? Nothing.
 
There was a Chief Counsel's interpretation letter that suggested solving the flight-time-as-compensation problem by not logging the flight, and as far as I know, that has never been contradicted by later interpretations. However, that would only be necessary if someone other than the pilot was paying for the cost of the flight.

Goodwill as compensation is a separate issue, and as I understand it, is only an issue if there is some reason to expect some kind of present or future business benefit or employment from your good deed. (See attachments.)

(P.S. I'm not a lawyer.)
 

Attachments

  • Murray - Goodwill as Compensation - 5061.pdf
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  • Goodwill as Compensation - Blackburn.pdf
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Here's the thing, the reason the FAA made these rules is pretty obvious- they don't want private pilots selling their services. The rest of this stuff has been obviously piled on to catch people who have found creative ways to get around the letter of the law. If you're just flying a friend to be a friend and you're paying at least your pro rata share then I don't see any moral issue or really even any issue to give someone reason to care. I'd just say keep quiet about it just in case you were to run afoul of one of those gotcha rules. Nobody is going to care about your flying your friend somewhere unless you do something that forces someone to take official notice.
 

Attachments

  • Bobertz - (2009) legal interpretation - common purpose.pdf
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If your truly flying a friend .as a friend ,if no compensation is given there should be no problem. Of course I’m not from the government.
 
I couldn’t imagine the FAA getting on me about something like this. If flying is that strict that I can’t even fly a friend to a meeting and split my cost, then forget it. I’ll just give it up. It gives me an excuse to fly and I am not being compensated. I guess I will just remain ignorant in this area. I was told by my instructor...hey, don’t get paid to fly someone....I will just stick with that. I am not trying to cheat on the rules.

Based on how honest everyone is here, I am thinking we could get rid of the IRS while we are at it.
 
Geesh if a flight like that is collecting illegal good will then I should sell the Toga and buy a two seater. Pretty sure I fly people and make them happy quite often. Never been paid or had favors of any value given in return.

I think the OP is significantly over analyzing this scenario.
 
Hour building is only compensation if someone else pays for it. Your friend can’t offer for you to fly him in his plane at his expense, but you can offer to fly him in your plane at your expense. (“Fly” here meaning “be PIC.”) The OP’s reference to part 135 makes it sound like he may be a commercially certificated pilot. If so, the fact he still has a question about this topic says something about how much confusion has been sown by the FAA and others.
 
So if I am a member of a flying club and hold a private pilots license and 3rd class medical, can I ferry a club plane for maintenance to another airfield and record the time in my log book if I am not paying for the flight time as that cost is being born by the flying club as part of routine maintenance?
 
PilotRocker said:
So if I am a member of a flying club and hold a private pilots license and 3rd class medical, can I ferry a club plane for maintenance to another airfield and record the time in my log book if I am not paying for the flight time as that cost is being born by the flying club as part of routine maintenance?
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In that situation, if you're going to log the time, I think you would need a commercial pilot certificate and a second class medical certificate.
 
iamtheari said:
Hour building is only compensation if someone else pays for it. Your friend can’t offer for you to fly him in his plane at his expense, but you can offer to fly him in your plane at your expense. (“Fly” here meaning “be PIC.”) The OP’s reference to part 135 makes it sound like he may be a commercially certificated pilot. If so, the fact he still has a question about this topic says something about how much confusion has been sown by the FAA and others.
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Yes, I am a commercially rated pilot. I thought getting a commercial rating would make things make more sense. Turns out it does the compete opposite. Pretty much anything done by anyone that has anything to do with any flying object is basically riding on one big grey line.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
PilotRocker said:
So if I am a member of a flying club and hold a private pilots license and 3rd class medical, can I ferry a club plane for maintenance to another airfield and record the time in my log book if I am not paying for the flight time as that cost is being born by the flying club as part of routine maintenance?
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I think your balling it up by using the word ferry.

Is there an actual ferry permit needed for this aircraft movement? Would @Palmpilot's reply change in the absence of a ferry permit?
 
Ravioli said:
I think your balling it up by using the word ferry.

Is there an actual ferry permit needed for this aircraft movement? Would @Palmpilot's reply change in the absence of a ferry permit?
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I wasn't focusing on his use of the word "ferry." My reply would change if he were paying for the flight time himself. However I'm not a lawyer - this is just my understanding of the legal interpretations from the FAA's lawyers.
 
So you can only let friends fly along if they hate the experience? Good to know :)

I find it weird that it is so difficult to know when one is flying as a service (that the FAA would agree with I mean). I guess the problem is as someone said above, you would think "common sense" would rule, but that enough try to use loopholes to actually fly for money, or some value, that it makes the FAA turn all "Barney Fife" when it would need a little more Andy. Because the FAA goes Fife, pilots get wary and worried.
We have the same basic reg here. I should check to see if it isn't exactly the same, just translated. I suspect it is.

It's the old conundrum. The more one tries to tweak laws, regulations, to try and nail it down, the more loopholes one creates.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
Yes, I am a commercially rated pilot. I thought getting a commercial rating would make things make more sense. Turns out it does the compete opposite. Pretty much anything done by anyone that has anything to do with any flying object is basically riding on one big grey line.
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It's like the instrument rating. It drastically complicates your weather considerations both on the ground and in the air. The commercial certificate gives all sorts of new privileges to the pilot, each of which opens a can of worms about the regulations governing the operation. That's not really surprising. So I say, for a really good time, you should ask if you can lease your plane to your friend and then also receive compensation for flying "his" plane. That will turn the gray line into a gray rainbow. :)
 
Palmpilot said:
In that situation, if you're going to log the time, I think you would need a commercial pilot certificate and a second class medical certificate.
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Isn’t logging the flight time relevant (to whether the time is “compensation”) only if the time helps the pilot satisfy the requirements for a new certificate or rating?
 
arkvet said:
Geesh if a flight like that is collecting illegal good will then I should sell the Toga and buy a two seater. Pretty sure I fly people and make them happy quite often. Never been paid or had favors of any value given in return.
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Have you not flown someone at night on a first date? Talk about value!
 
I think it's important to understand the concepts that underlie these issues (PPL limitations, common purpose rules, etc.), but for the love of god stop worrying so much and go flying. The FAA doesn't care if your mom pays for your flight time and doesn't really care what you and your close friends do. Involve strangers and that changes.
 
iamtheari said:
My reading of the regs is that it depends on the girl.
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Well, since it's at night, it makes the girl's attributes slightly less important. More important is whether the action occurred in-flight.

(I now have 3,779 posts. Somehow it doesn't seem right that posts like this contribute to the count. Some things just don't warrant that kind of merit.)
 
Lon33 said:
Isn’t logging the flight time relevant (to whether the time is “compensation”) only if the time helps the pilot satisfy the requirements for a new certificate or rating?
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The FAA answered that in the Harrington interpretation, linked earlier:

"While it could be argued that the accumulation of flight time is not always of value to the pilot involved, the FAA does not consider it appropriate to enter into a case-by-case analysis to determine whether the logging of time is of value to a particular pilot, or what the pilot's motives or intentions are on each flight."​

In other words, "Don't confuse me with facts; my mind's made up!" ;)
 
TheGolfPilot said:
A friend wants me to fly him across the state in my own airplane to go to a meeting I have no part in. I'm not set up part 135, so I would be acting as a Private Pilot. If I bare ALL costs, basically saying, wow thanks for reminding me I want to fly there, would you like to tag along? Would that be legal? Or would the flight time be considered compensation although I am paying for it.
Click to expand...

If you push it far enough, 61.113 can convince you that you're never allowed to fly anyone anywhere anytime.

You want the hyper-paranoid, OMG-61.113-means-I-can't-ever fly interpretation? Yeah, you're screwed. You lack common purpose and by flying your boss around, you're engendering goodwill, which will be advantageous to you in your career and that constitutes compensation. If you later get promoted at least in part because you did your boss a favor, someone might even be able to prove that it's true.

You want the realistic interpretation? You're footing the bill. Go fly where you want.
 
This crap used to be so much simpler when I was a PP. Or maybe it was just thought it was simpler, than found POA.
 
Paulie said:
You're allowed to get shared fuel costs without bring considered being for hire. Doing a friend a favor.
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Nope. Not without "common purpose". If you don't have to be there for the meeting, you're being compensated (half-compensated?) for flight time.

Bonchie said:
No one, including the FAA, gives a crap if you fly your friend somewhere.
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Oh, the FAA definitely gives a crap, if you're paying less than full rate.

PilotRocker said:
So if I am a member of a flying club and hold a private pilots license and 3rd class medical, can I ferry a club plane for maintenance to another airfield and record the time in my log book if I am not paying for the flight time as that cost is being born by the flying club as part of routine maintenance?
Click to expand...

Technically, if you are getting flight time for free that you would normally have to pay for, then yes that is considered compensation.

In my club, we use either a commercial pilot or a board member for these sorts of flights - Our board members are compensated for being board members, not pilots. I still have my commercial because I don't want to be a guinea pig for that case.
 
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