Flight planning forms -- how come no runway info on them?

PHXAvi8tor

PHXAvi8tor

Pre-takeoff checklist
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PHXAvi8tor
Just noticed that, despite the regulatory requirement to check runway lengths, the Jeppesen and Cessna standard flight-planning forms that instructors require students to fill out manually when learning how to plan X-Cs do not have a section for runway info on them!

Incredible.

I discovered this yesterday while creating a "sample flight plan" that I could use on my CFI Initial oral exam, and also use as a teaching aid with future students.

I would also like to see a new section on these forms for "Takeoff Data," which includes a weight-and-balance field.

Right now, the forms get about half-way there -- there's a section in the lower right corner for airport info: frequencies, etc. Why not make it useful and compliant with regs?

Hmmm, I think I'm going to design my own flight-planning forms!
 
What? No use of the green book? Sounds like overkill. Too much info on one form makes it a pain to find the info you really need. Also: what standard forms that are required to be filled out? I never had any required forms to be filled out. I'm looking for the FAR for these required forms now.
 
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EdFred is a smart-ass. He cannot help it, God made him that way.

I can see that you might want to have a "checkbox" for runway data and the like, but after all, the regs require that you have all necessary information, and I have a hard time envisioning how you would decide what constitutes "all" for the purposes of a form.

This is why we have instruction in discretion and decision-making.
 
I have the XC log on an Excel spreadsheet. It does all the course and speed calculations when the basic info is entered. Across the bottom is a chart for all airports along/near the route. The table includes TPA, FSS and App/Dep Freqs along with VOR, NDB, CTAF/tower and ground freqs.

When I print it out, I print either the kneeboard or taxiway diagram from AOPA on the back. If the log includes an intermediate stop, I print the kneeboard/taxiway sheet for that airport on a separate sheet.

Does that cover it?
 
The Old Man said:
I have the XC log on an Excel spreadsheet. It does all the course and speed calculations when the basic info is entered. Across the bottom is a chart for all airports along/near the route. The table includes TPA, FSS and App/Dep Freqs along with VOR, NDB, CTAF/tower and ground freqs.

When I print it out, I print either the kneeboard or taxiway diagram from AOPA on the back. If the log includes an intermediate stop, I print the kneeboard/taxiway sheet for that airport on a separate sheet.

Does that cover it?
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Sounds like that would do the trick.

All I'd really like to see on the Jepp X-C planning sheet, which they sell to pilots for a convenience (no, it's not a bureaucratic form requirement, EdFred!!), is one additional line under their "Airport Information" box for runway length.

The regs specifically require checking the length of each runway, in addition to "all required information," so why not include that simple little line on these X-C planning forms?
 
PHXAvi8tor said:
Just noticed that, despite the regulatory requirement to check runway lengths, the Jeppesen and Cessna standard flight-planning forms that instructors require students to fill out manually when learning how to plan X-Cs do not have a section for runway info on them!

Incredible.
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Ever see the kneeboad-sized Jepp form? Even less information.

Why "incredible?" Just because Pilot A finds having a bunch of information written in tiny print on one piece of paper useful doesn't mean that having a relatively clean and uncluttered sheet of paper with only the essentials is a bad idea for another pilot.

The forms used for student pilots typically are focussed on waypoints and calculations. Runway information, lighting available, traffic patterns, all the VORs within 20 NM of the route of flight, diversion airports, FSS frequencies, enroute ATIS, UNICOM, and AWOS/ASOS frequencies to update weather information, the runway (and services) information for all the airports within 10 NM of the route of flight in case of diversion, weather maps that show where weather is improving, and the location of the cheapest fuel and best cup of coffee at the destination airport are all great to know (and arguably a very important part of the planning process), but there are other publications that have them. Besides too much focus on "fill in the blanks" detail can detract from the big picture

Given that the airport diagrams in the AFD are =much= better than they used to be and the availability of larger airport diagrams for many airports through NACO, why would you want to write it down again anyway instead of organizing the available materials for easy access (aka cockpit resource management)?
Hmmm, I think I'm going to design my own flight-planning forms!
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That's your answer!

Just be careful to avoid forcing a level of detail on a student who might have a better way (for him) to organize the available material. I'm convinced that the No 1 reason for a private pilot who does almost no flight planning at all is a CFI who required too much flight planning when he was a student (at least without explaining that some of it was for "instructional purposes" only).
 
PHXAvi8tor said:
Sounds like that would do the trick.

All I'd really like to see on the Jepp X-C planning sheet, which they sell to pilots for a convenience (no, it's not a bureaucratic form requirement, EdFred!!), is one additional line under their "Airport Information" box for runway length.

The regs specifically require checking the length of each runway, in addition to "all required information," so why not include that simple little line on these X-C planning forms?
Click to expand...

Then that begs another question: "Which runway?"

We have 3 at our field. Well 6 I suppose, but I count 12/30 as one, 9/27 as one, 18/36 as one. So which runway information would you put on this form? The shortest? The one you might use based on winds at departure? What happens if the winds switch enroute? What if the student flies into Midway or other towered field with a bunch of runways that will get assigned by ATC?
 
I think that "flight planning forms" would more accurately be called "navigation logs". Additional, non-navigation, information has just been added to them over the years based on need and the fact that there might be an empty space in that corner that we need to fill.

I wholeheartedly agree with making your own form...I always made my students do at least one cross-country with homemade forms, and have often been chastised for requiring them to "reinvent the wheel". The way I look at it, though, is that if you need to figure out what goes on it, you have a better idea of WHY it's there. And when you realize enroute that something else would be handy to have, you learn something.

You'll also find that a flight planning form is best kept as a "living document", with changes to be made as your flying skills progress...more instrument flying info when you fly IFR, with maybe safe altitude info in place of pilotage info. You'll probably also find that your ability to glean the proper information straight from the charts in an efficient manner will substantially reduce the amount of information you need on a flight planning form.

The bottom line is, a one-size-fits-all form really doesn't fit all...it can be a highly personalized document.

Fly safe!

David
 
Can't say I use a flight planning form anymore period. Sometimes I'll write some information down on a little yellow notebook with some basic information. But that's the extent of it. Most of my cross countries involve the grabbing of sectionals..Looking at them quick to see where I'm going. Glancing at the A/FD..Direct TO on the GPS. Takeoff--turn to heading-- and follow myself on the sectional with my finger. I'll play with the VORs and spin them around once in awhile to entertain myself. I for sure do not make checkpoints on a sectional, write all this down, figure out ETE and fuel burn from checkpoint to checkpoint..Etc.

Funny thing is--Can't say I've ever flown with a pilot post PPL that does do all that. So I doubt I'm the only one.

IFR would probably be a different story for me--but I can't really say right now since I don't do it.
 
jesse said:
Can't say I use a flight planning form anymore period. Sometimes I'll write some information down on a little yellow notebook with some basic information. But that's the extent of it. Most of my cross countries involve the grabbing of sectionals..Looking at them quick to see where I'm going. Glancing at the A/FD..Direct TO on the GPS. Takeoff--turn to heading-- and follow myself on the sectional with my finger. I'll play with the VORs and spin them around once in awhile to entertain myself. I for sure do not make checkpoints on a sectional, write all this down, figure out ETE and fuel burn from checkpoint to checkpoint..Etc.
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Don't ever get out of the habit of tracing on the sectional. You (and too many other pilots out there) are one step away from busting restricted airspace if that's the extent of your flight planning.
 
jesse said:
Can't say I use a flight planning form anymore period.
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I thought you had plans to get your commercial ticket and become a CFI?

I did it for my 709 ride then got out of the habit, losing a lot, before my instrument ride. Now, I'm back to the "old-fashioned" VFR plans for my commercial ticket. I couldn't offer enough detail for this flight.

FAR §91.103 may be the rule but it's not the end of the game.

On my W&B, I got so tired of writing down the same thing over and over for new calculations, not to mention weight shift problems, etc. So, I wrote a simple spreadsheet. My CFI was not impressed since he had no clue I actually created it. So, as a backup I'll be writing out the final version by hand when I meet the DPE.
 
Greebo said:
Don't ever get out of the habit of tracing on the sectional. You (and too many other pilots out there) are one step away from busting restricted airspace if that's the extent of your flight planning.
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Uhh. You look on the sectional from where you are to where you are going. If there is restricted airspace you go around it. I'm not one step away from busting it. I'm looking just the same as everyone else--I'm just not spending all kinds of time writing down all kinds of crap that I don't need. I don't bother to draw a line on the sectional 99% of the time because chances are I won't be on that line and I prefer to use a sectional like a moving map GPS. My finger stays where I'm at.

Fly a lot of XC and you get comfortable with finding things on the fly and knowing the area you are flying in. I don't need charts *PERIOD* to fly around a large chunk of Minnesota and Wisconsin.

To each their own--But I have never flown with a pilot that does the full blown checkride style flight plan. I've flown with quite a few. I'm not saying anyone is wrong..I'm saying it's not unsafe not to.

KennyFlys said:
I thought you had plans to get your commercial ticket and become a CFI?
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I do. I don't have to sit there and go through that level of detail on every one of my cross countries to do so. Cross country planning and weight and balance is pretty simple stuff at least in my head. But I have a very technical mind.
 
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I do it pretty much like Jesse does. I am always topped off, so I don't need to worry about fuel planning. And I am not sure there is a public airport within 700 miles of me that I can't get in or out of with my Cherokee. All that planning is overkill. Though we do have to teach it to please the FAA.

My flight planning goes like this:

Ball park my route
Check Airnav for fuel prices, and change stops if necessary
Check weather and recheck against airnav
Check that my 430 is updated
Call FSS on way to the airport to verify no TFRs, etc, file at this time if IFR
Load flight plan into 430.
Fuel up
Call for clearance void if unable to make 2000AGL while VFR
Depart

Of course coming back from Cleveland I did none of that. Just topped off, called up tower and meandered home. 5 hours of fule on board - probably closer to 6 with the RPMs I was turning, and only 2 hours of flying. A plan would have been overkill.
 
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I would be surprised to see that most people use a flight plan form post PPL for anything other than BFRs or other Checkrides.

Cross country planning for me works this way: I look at the sectional. I note the VORs along the most direct route in my head. When I fly, I press GPS-Direct, and keep track of where I am. The sectional is within arms reach, but is usually not opened. I keep track of where I am using the GPS.

GPS Fails? Oh no, open the sectional and find my place (I know where I last was because of the GPS). No biggie. Not dangerous. More common than most will admit.
 
Maybe it's just me, but I will likely be a nerd and do it every.single.time regardless. One thing I like about flying is that it forces me to slow down and do things deliberately - if anyone has met me they may agree I tend to be a kind of high-speed person and I have to constantly remind myself - slow down, be deliberate and precise. I don't want to let myself get out of the habit when flying because I'm afraid I would become sloppy then.
 
It is common for many pilots to get out of the habit of doing their flight-planning longhand -- especially in this wonderful era of computer technology.

But, as a soon-to-be CFI (my prog check is this Friday!), I will require students to know how to do a flight plan from scratch -- longhand. That way, when they do punch it all into Jepp's or AOPA's flight-planning software, they really know what's going on behind the scenes.

And, all pilots really ought to be doing the basic checks independent of computers anyways -- winds aloft, icing, TFRs, NOTAMS, Pireps, Airmets, Sigmets, as well as airport and runway conditions!

To sum up the regs, the pilot still has the responsibility to gather and know all available information for a flight before embarking on it.

Letting a computer do it for you does not relieve the pilot of the responsibility, and I think when you click the "ACCEPT" button in the fine-print disclaimer in the flight-planning software, pilots are reminded of that responsibility.
 
PHXAvi8tor said:
Letting a computer do it for you does not relieve the pilot of the responsibility, and I think when you click the "ACCEPT" button in the fine-print disclaimer in the flight-planning software, pilots are reminded of that responsibility.
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Awesome point. I've used the AOPA Flight Planner from Jeppesen quite often. I'm even using it as I write to back up the numbers I come up with by hand. But, although I can get a DUAT weather briefing through it, I'll still get a briefing directly from the DUAT site and in the hours leading up to the flight as well as just prior to pre-flight inspection, I'll get an abbreviated briefing.

I use ADDS quite a bit but the great thing about DUAT over ADDS is there is also a record of your checking weather as required prior to flight. Ya can't beat it.
 
KennyFlys said:
But, although I can get a DUAT weather briefing through [the AOPA Flight Planner from Jeppesen], I'll still get a briefing directly from the DUAT site and in the hours leading up to the flight as well as just prior to pre-flight inspection, I'll get an abbreviated briefing.

I use ADDS quite a bit but the great thing about DUAT over ADDS is there is also a record of your checking weather as required prior to flight. Ya can't beat it.
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I agree with doing a DUAT (or DUATS) briefing in addition to ADDS due to the accountability. I don't understand, however, why you do one outside of RTFP. You can see the raw transcript there, and there's nothing to prevent you from doing multiple wweather sessions through it, so you can compare the test and the sessions. I admit, however, that Golden Eagle makes this even easier, and stores the briefings so they can be readily accessed while you aren't online.
 
gprellwitz said:
I don't understand, however, why you do one outside of RTFP. You can see the raw transcript there, and there's nothing to prevent you from doing multiple weather sessions through it, so you can compare the test and the sessions.
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Although DUAT is accessed through RTFP using my registration data, I don't trust it to be transmitted through a third party, in this case, Jeppesen. So, I'll go direct. Also, I have internet access in the car. I can use it to access RTFP but it's slow as a worm. With DUAT, it's much faster and I still have the accountability factor.
 
I hate DUATs. It is the worst designed user interface in existence. I prefer to just look at ADDS and call flight service for a briefing on my drive to the airport.
 
I don't care which AFSS I'm talking to, I don't really listen to them anymore. I've had one too many bad briefings where I was told "Should be a nice flight, have fun" and then wind up wishing I was back on the ground making a no-go decision.

So now, I get my own information, make my own decisions, and then call FSS, give them the info they want, and then tune them out until I hear "Pilot Reports are appreciated on 122.00, have a nice day."
 
woodstock said:
Maybe it's just me, but I will likely be a nerd and do it every.single.time regardless. One thing I like about flying is that it forces me to slow down and do things deliberately - if anyone has met me they may agree I tend to be a kind of high-speed person and I have to constantly remind myself - slow down, be deliberate and precise. I don't want to let myself get out of the habit when flying because I'm afraid I would become sloppy then.
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Elizabeth, I'm pretty much the same way. Do it right, all the time, every time. I don't think you can go wrong with that attitude. Well said.
 
I use Voyager flight-planning software, it has all of that info. If I am away from the PC I have created my own form with all of it on it.

I, for one, love nav logs and flight plan forms, great for cockpit management.
 
woodstock said:
Maybe it's just me, but I will likely be a nerd and do it every.single.time regardless. One thing I like about flying is that it forces me to slow down and do things deliberately - if anyone has met me they may agree I tend to be a kind of high-speed person and I have to constantly remind myself - slow down, be deliberate and precise. I don't want to let myself get out of the habit when flying because I'm afraid I would become sloppy then.
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That's a good practice and one I follow for any trip over about 50 miles. One suggestion I will make though, after you get your PPL use a dang computer! It will do the navlog calculations faster than you can debate whether or not to do it and I have found them to always be dead-on.

Yes, of course you want to check behind it that's pretty easy to do by ball-park estimates of the whole trip. If it says a 350nm trip is going to burn 3 gallons of fuel, you have problem (no, I've never seen this happen). I don't understand all of this technophobia everyone has when it comes to flying.
 
KennyFlys said:
Although DUAT is accessed through RTFP using my registration data, I don't trust it to be transmitted through a third party, in this case, Jeppesen. So, I'll go direct. Also, I have internet access in the car. I can use it to access RTFP but it's slow as a worm. With DUAT, it's much faster and I still have the accountability factor.
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Well, you can see that it logged in with your user ID and what it requested, so I really don't see where the trust comes in. OTOH, if speed is your issue, you certainly can't go wrong going direct.
 
I remember jotting down the preferred runway # for the predicted winds in the margin or somewhere occasionally for airports new to me. Then they started listing preffered runways on sectionals which is a great idea.
 
Chache said:
Jesse,
Don't forget to add " extra Batteries"..... :rofl:
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jesse said:
They probably wouldn't be any good to a 430.
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Nah... You're right...
You wrote "430"....
In my feeble attempt to be a wise-Butt, :vomit:
I confused it with "496"... :confused:

But then again, there must be something that powers the memory chip,
in the event of a primary power ........failure...

Yeah, you're still right ......probably wouldn't be any good....even then.
________________________

10 laps around the pattern, to a full stop,
to clear out the cobwebs from the little recesses in the brain...:rolleyes:
 
I kind of like having a diagram of the runways at destination. That way I just add the wind when I get the local report, and can easilly identify the preferred runway and crosswind. The approach plates for any airport (if it has an instrument approach) usually have it in the bottom right corner.
 
I do up a paper flight log long hand for each cross country flight I do. I'm not generally using GPS, and I don't know my area very well, though. I'll do a w&b for each new aircraft that'll tell me roughly when I need to start getting careful and working it all out longhand. I haven't bothered to put together a spreadsheet yet.

My last cross country flight, I had to fly with less fuel due to the all up weight, and my reserves were right at my personal minimum. It was windy, so I was sure going to do wind triangles to calculate my fuel burn. I also couldn't comfortably make it in or out of 3 of the 4 possible runways at the airport I was going to due to aircraft performance. I did those calculations before I left, which was good because I had to tell the control tower I was 'unable'.

On that flight I had to do weight and balance, wind triangles, and takeoff/ landing performance calculations to be safe. On other flights I know that I'm so far within the limits that I don't bother to do any of them. I certainly err towards the conservative, though.

Chris
 
jesse said:
Can't say I use a flight planning form anymore period. Sometimes I'll write some information down on a little yellow notebook with some basic information. But that's the extent of it. Most of my cross countries involve the grabbing of sectionals..Looking at them quick to see where I'm going. Glancing at the A/FD..Direct TO on the GPS. Takeoff--turn to heading-- and follow myself on the sectional with my finger. I'll play with the VORs and spin them around once in awhile to entertain myself. I for sure do not make checkpoints on a sectional, write all this down, figure out ETE and fuel burn from checkpoint to checkpoint..Etc.

Funny thing is--Can't say I've ever flown with a pilot post PPL that does do all that. So I doubt I'm the only one.

IFR would probably be a different story for me--but I can't really say right now since I don't do it.
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Well, if you ever get down this way and go for an XC with me for some good BBQ, you'll see me planning the trip pretty carefully, ESPECIALLY as it pertains to fuel burn.

My Cardinal and RV both have fuel flow guages, but my Skyhawk don't. Got that ol' E6B right there calculating my fuel burn against my ever-present headwind en-route (and crosswind at destination).

I learned early on in my basic PPL days out in far west Texas that fuel barns were few and damn far in between and that the smart pilot always knows how much fuel he/she has, how much they're burning and how much it's gonna take from checkpoint to checkpoint--which is why I have multiple alternate airports on my flight plans.

And down here 'round Crawford. . . , you learn to draw a line on the sectional to stay clear of it. :yes: :yes: :yes:

I reckon I agree with you about all the nebulous ETE and detailed checkpoints and such you learn early on in basic pilotage. . . up to a point. Again, flying over some desert areas or cornfields or mid-southern Kansas, it sure pays to know exactly where you're at.

But I do like Bo and just print the kneeboard PDF of the airports and alt airports along my route--then I double-check the frequencies/info against the AFD. Any notes get written on those things. Easier to stay organized for me that way.

Regards.

-JD
 
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EdFred said:
Am I missing something here?
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For example:
On the Seattle Sectional, for Harvey Field (S43) the preferred runway is listed on the sectional with the other sectional data as, RP 14 (right pattern, runway 14).
 
hmmm not so sure Dave. Im pretty sure that any runways that have Right Patterns are listed, whether they are preferred or not.
 
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