Flight following on short flight?

Will Kumley said:
Wow, lots of answers and it seems like it really depends on who ya ask. My theory was similar to Jordane93 but I guess worst case scenario I ask for FF then they tell me they are too busy for such a short hop. On a positive note, the majority of the flight is inside the mode c veil so I can see traffic on my phone via the stratus the flight school just installed to be compliant with ADS-B. However, I also know there can be military traffic and not all military aircraft have ads-b installed yet so there is that.
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There’s no right answer. Get FF if you want to. Don’t get FF if you don’t want to. You’re PIC. You do what you think is best for the safe outcome of the flight.
 
jordane93 said:
There’s no right answer. Get FF if you want to. Don’t get FF if you don’t want to. You’re PIC. You do what you think is best for the safe outcome of the flight.
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And that’s exactly what I told pilots when I did ATC. I didn’t care if they called me or not. It’s like asking if they should file IFR or go VFR. You’re PIC, do what you want. It made little difference in my job and I got paid the same either way.
 
In the SF Bay Area I try to get FF. I was up one day where Oakland Center was dealing with somebody who was flying too close to the ceiling and it was affecting an IFR Coast Guard flight. That somebody wasn’t in communication. If that were me I’d much rather be alerted. Coast guard was vectored around the traffic, then popped out and saw the traffic from a safe distance. Coast guard confirmed the traffic was flying too close to the clouds. I would guess the guy had ADS-out.
 
Cogito said:
You're correct, that's what the facility reps say. Last time I flew to a meeting with SoCal Tracon controllers I was dropped by SoCal due to workload saturation.

That said, one of my favorite podcast, "Opposing Bases" is by two air traffic controllers, who are also rated pilots, they consistently say they'd rather have their radar targets talking with them.
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That's what Fort Worth center controllers told us during a visit last year: they'd rather be talking to you and knowing your intentions than not.
In my brief PPL life so far, I have only once been refused FF.
 
N1120A said:
That's false. Go to any meeting with facility reps and see what they say.
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I actually had the opportunity to take a tour of the TRACON facility by Miramar (San Diego). During the discussions with all who attended, The Rep stated that they prefer you to contact them. Does not matter if its a short flight to the practice area or 20 min. to breakfast hop or what ever. They encourage it.
 
Will Kumley said:
On a positive note, the majority of the flight is inside the mode c veil so I can see traffic on my phone via the stratus the flight school just installed to be compliant with ADS-B. However, I also know there can be military traffic and not all military aircraft have ads-b installed yet so there is that.
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Mode C traffic is visible via ADS-B In, the difference is that it’s relayed by a ground station, not received direct from that traffic. That means there is a delay relative to getting the data directly. The same is true whether or not you are within the veil, as long as you are receiving data from a ground station, and coverage is good across the US once you climb a bit. I’ve found ADS-B In to be quite useful since well before 2020 ‘Out’ regs came into play.

I think only a small fraction of VFR traffic uses FF, and particularly in dense traffic areas I think ATC would be completely swamped if many more VFR aircraft attempted to do so. I see FF as a tactical tool to be used when it is helpful to me in enhancing my safety or convenience, and avoided most of the time otherwise - particularly as I find radio chatter in my headset and maintaining continuous contact with the ground annoying. For example (on topic) I occasionally use FF to get a short cut home on weekends when some local Class B areas are not in heavy use. You may do otherwise, I don’t care - I have zero interest in what other pilots may choose as long as they work within the regulations and hopefully enjoy their flying.

@Velocity173, thanks for your professionalism in doing the job. My expectation of ATC as well paid Federal employees is that they earn their living under the conditions the system presents them. Their preference in whether I talk to them is irrelevant to me as they work for us, as requested by us, within the real world system as defined by airspace regulation and PIC discretion.
 
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N1120A said:
That's false. Go to any meeting with facility reps and see what they say.
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I’m not saying they’re grumpy... I’m just saying they’re really busy.
 
My CFII is a controller... I will ask about this. But I can tell you that when we are on training flights my cfii stays with controllers when possible.
 
The weather was barely good enough for my short flight to the airport I'll be doing my checkride at. Picked up FF as soon as I took off and all was well for half of the flight at which time ATC told me to squak VFR and change frequencies. I'm guessing it was due to my altitude of 2000 ft. They tend to lose you at that altitude with the mountains around here. ADS-B in was good to have but I had to learn how to set it up so it didn't saturate my phone with crap so far away it wasn't a factor. One the return trip I called up ATC twice to request FF with no response. The closest thing I got was when she was talking to an aircraft with a very similar tail number and she clearly said she was not talking to me by using my tail number. Oh well, it was an uneventful flight which is the way I like it. Clouds were a little lower than I wanted but workable and I got to practice landings at my checkride location. :)
 
Ed Sokol said:
I actually had the opportunity to take a tour of the TRACON facility by Miramar (San Diego). During the discussions with all who attended, The Rep stated that they prefer you to contact them. Does not matter if its a short flight to the practice area or 20 min. to breakfast hop or what ever. They encourage it.
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Yep. Rob was at our club's big safety meeting last week and said the same.
 
I believe it varies, based on lots of variables, too numerous to accurately list in their entirety.

On a weekend flight from Deer Valley to Goodyear airport (DVT to GYR)? Decline. I'll be leaving one airport's Class-D, and entering another's soon enough, and Luke Tower is normally closed on weekends. I'd literally be talking to Phx/Biltmore just barely enough to get a "radar contact" from them.

How about a short flight from Deer Valley to Sedona? Only 45 mins in the air. Heck yeah! It crosses some serious terrain, and I'd rather be talking and identified than not. There's always plenty of traffic at nearly the same altitudes, and S&R is enhanced if the mill quits. That's also on the edge of warranting a VFR flight plan for me (but I don't want to stir that pot. We just finished that one recently enough).

How about from Fullerton to Avalon? Wanna do that one without talking to anyone? It's definitely a short trip.
 
This is a split call for me. If the departure airport can arrange it on the ground I do it every time. But, if I need to pick it up in the air for 30 min flight, that would mean I'd be on with them for maybe 15 mins? Easier to just monitor the freq and not tie up the radio.

YMMV

Quoting @Rgbeard -How about from Fullerton to Avalon? Wanna do that one without talking to anyone? It's definitely a short trip.

Fullerton arranges it on the ground. Avalon does not.
 
There is no harm in using flight following, even for a short flight. I think it is advisable if you are transiting above, below, or near class C airspace, even if you are not REQUIRED to be in contact with ATC. It is courteous to help ATC route traffic around you by letting them know where you are going. If ATC is too busy, well...you tried to be helpful. I've never had an issue working with ATC at Syracuse, but then it's often pretty sleepy.
 
Ryanb said:
Lame reason.
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Constructive feedback, lol. It's entirely dependent on where you are in the country and the conditions surrounding the flight. Is this a 30 minute flight from Class E to Class E in the TX panhandle to the OK panhandle? Or transiting the VFR corridor in a Class B? Day or night? Busy Saturday morning, or Wednesday at 7pm? Sometimes there just isn't much reason to call up FF in order to make a 30 minute flight from the boonies to somewhere else in the boonies. Other times, it's a prudent choice and should almost be required. Weigh the variables and your penchant for any risk, then decide if FF is a desire.
 
SoonerAviator said:
It's entirely dependent on where you are in the country and the conditions surrounding the flight. Is this a 30 minute flight from Class E to Class E in the TX panhandle to the OK panhandle? Or transiting the VFR corridor in a Class B? Day or night? Busy Saturday morning, or Wednesday at 7pm? Sometimes there just isn't much reason to call up FF in order to make a 30 minute flight from the boonies to somewhere else in the boonies. Other times, it's a prudent choice and should almost be required. Weigh the variables and your penchant for any risk, then decide if FF is a desire.
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The flight I was referring to is class E to Class E outside of a busy Class B but still inside the Mode C veil. There are a couple of MOA's and even restricted areas nearby but my flight path doesn't touch them. I flew the route this past weekend on what was forecast as the first real VFR day in a while for the area so the airspace was busy at both the departure and arrival airports. FF was good as I headed North and they were more than willing to assist with traffic advisories. When I left the airport to head back south I made my initial radio call with my N number and stated I had a VFR request twice. Both times, I got zero response. The controller finally acknowledged me in a roundabout way. Both my plane and another plane shared the same number with a different letter at the end. Maybe the controller didn't want to get us confused, maybe she was busy, I'm not sure but she only used my full N number to stated she was not talking to me and she was talking to the other guy. I flew the remaining 20 minutes back to my home airport with no incident, kept an eye out the windows, and monitored the ADS-in data on my phone. As chemgeek said, I tried.
 
If I leave the pattern I request FF...for any flight.

Easy peasy and I will always take a second set of eyes. Have yet to ever receive a vector that I had a problem with.

That habit was reinforced after a SoCal Tracon tour and seeing first hand all the issues 1200 targets cause that would be easily rectified if ATC was talking to them and knew their intentions. System works MUCH better when everyone works together vs Sky Cowboys that are unpredictable.
 
Rgbeard said:
I believe it varies, based on lots of variables, too numerous to accurately list in their entirety.

On a weekend flight from Deer Valley to Goodyear airport (DVT to GYR)? Decline. I'll be leaving one airport's Class-D, and entering another's soon enough, and Luke Tower is normally closed on weekends. I'd literally be talking to Phx/Biltmore just barely enough to get a "radar contact" from them.

How about a short flight from Deer Valley to Sedona? Only 45 mins in the air. Heck yeah! It crosses some serious terrain, and I'd rather be talking and identified than not. There's always plenty of traffic at nearly the same altitudes, and S&R is enhanced if the mill quits. That's also on the edge of warranting a VFR flight plan for me (but I don't want to stir that pot. We just finished that one recently enough).

How about from Fullerton to Avalon? Wanna do that one without talking to anyone? It's definitely a short trip.
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DVT-GYR is practically tower to tower FF. I'd tell DVT on the ground and they'll probably coordinate you with GYR and Luke, if needed. That's how it works when you fly BUR-SMO (granted, that's Class C to Class D, but still). I moved a plane from SEE to MYF the other day and got a coordinated hand off, which is super helpful in busy airspace.

Yeah, and anyone who doesn't get FF to AVX is a nut. SCT is desperate for people to be on frequency there, because several approaches and departures go right through that corridor. Easy thing is that you just switch back from CTAF to whatever frequency you flew in on.
 
I’m in the boonies, so on 40 mile flights to nearby airports I don’t bother, but anything farther than that I call em up once over the nearby VOR.
 
I never do, I would have to climb pretty high for the center to see me, so not practical...
 
Ryanb said:
Anytime you leave the vicinity of your airport, you should be in communication with ATC. Absolutely no reason not to be.
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Ryanb said:
We request flight following every time we go out to the practice area and students are taught to do the same. There’s no excuse for anyone not to get flight following as far as I can see.
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You seem to operate in a flight school rental culture bubble. Widen your horizons.
 
dans2992 said:
Quite often, they actually don’t. Around major metro areas, they’ll possibly either tell you to go away, call back later, or dump you 20 miles from your destination.

Sometimes, if they do take you, it sounds begrudging.

Not blaming them - they’re likely busy with a lot of other stuff, but it is what it is.
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Never seen that anywhere out west in any Bravo or Charlie. Not even California or Vegas.

Be specific about the metro and maybe folks will agree. A few are like that. Not the majority.
 
dans2992 said:
Quite often, they actually don’t. Around major metro areas, they’ll possibly either tell you to go away, call back later, or dump you 20 miles from your destination.

Sometimes, if they do take you, it sounds begrudging.

Not blaming them - they’re likely busy with a lot of other stuff, but it is what it is.
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Not at all the case everywhere. SoCal for example explicitly WANTS to be talking to as much traffic as they can and has a active program to educate more CFI's to teach their students about the benefits of using FF. As they told me, they would much rather be taking and know a pilots intentions vs not talking because they can NOT assume anything about what you might or might not do.

One controller told me the most stressful part of his job is watching two 1200 targets at the same altitude converging and watching and hoping they both come out on the other side since he is not talking to either.
 
RoscoeT said:
You seem to operate in a flight school rental culture bubble. Widen your horizons.
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I own 2 airplanes. Am I "operating in a bubble?"

Shawn said:
Not at all the case everywhere. SoCal for example explicitly WANTS to be talking to as much traffic as they can and has a active program to educate more CFI's to teach their students about the benefits of using FF. As they told me, they would much rather be taking and know a pilots intentions vs not talking because they can NOT assume anything about what you might or might not do.

One controller told me the most stressful part of his job is watching two 1200 targets at the same altitude converging and watching and hoping they both come out on the other side since he is not talking to either.
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Several practice areas in SCT's airspace are very, very close to approach and departure corridors for very busy air carrier and GA airports. I regularly get vectored off V23 because there are 1200s doing maneuvers almost directly on the airway. It is absurd. There is a reason the outreach guy from SCT hammers home to get FF.
 
N1120A said:
I own 2 airplanes. Am I "operating in a bubble?"



Several practice areas in SCT's airspace are very, very close to approach and departure corridors for very busy air carrier and GA airports. I regularly get vectored off V23 because there are 1200s doing maneuvers almost directly on the airway. It is absurd. There is a reason the outreach guy from SCT hammers home to get FF.
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You shouldn’t be getting vectored off V23 for VFR traffic. If those VFRs got FF, they shouldn’t be getting restrictions to stay clear of IFR traffic either. There’s no separation for IFR vs VFR in that airspace. That’s the problem with today’s controllers. They’re using FF as a way of using IFR priority over VFR. That’s incorrect. They need to issue a traffic calls as their order states and allow the pilot decide the course of action.
 
Velocity173 said:
You shouldn’t be getting vectored off V23 for VFR traffic. If those VFRs got FF, they shouldn’t be getting restrictions to stay clear of IFR traffic either. There’s no separation for IFR vs VFR in that airspace. That’s the problem with today’s controllers. They’re using FF as a way of using IFR priority over VFR. That’s incorrect. They need to issue a traffic calls as their order states and allow the pilot decide the course of action.
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That's the point. Those guys aren't talking to ATC. If they were, they'd be getting vectored.
 
N1120A said:
That's the point. Those guys aren't talking to ATC. If they were, they'd be getting vectored.
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And that’s the problem that I have. If someone is out doing FF, they’re not there to get vectored around. A vector for them in airspace that doesn’t require separation, should only be upon pilot request. ATC wants these guys to come up their freq so they can restrict VFR aircraft to stay clear of their IFRs. That’s an incorrect application. There is no priority of IFR over VFR. The correct application is to issue a traffic call and let the pilots decide a course of action. If a pilot can’t determine they need to request a vector based on a traffic call, then that’s a weak PIC.
 
Velocity173 said:
And that’s the problem that I have. If someone is out doing FF, they’re not there to get vectored around. A vector for them in airspace that doesn’t require separation, should only be upon pilot request. ATC wants these guys to come up their freq so they can restrict VFR aircraft to stay clear of their IFRs. That’s an incorrect application. There is no priority of IFR over VFR. The correct application is to issue a traffic call and let the pilots decide a course of action. If a pilot can’t determine they need to request a vector based on a traffic call, then that’s a weak PIC.
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Except they do have IFR separation requirements, so they have to issue vectors if visual separation is not an option.
 
N1120A said:
Except they do have IFR separation requirements, so they have to issue vectors if visual separation is not an option.
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Only in Class B, C or TRSA is there sep with IFR vs VFR. If you’re flying along V23 in E, there’s no prescribed separation between you and the VFR. It’s a traffic call.
 
denverpilot said:
Never seen that anywhere out west in any Bravo or Charlie. Not even California or Vegas.

Be specific about the metro and maybe folks will agree. A few are like that. Not the majority.
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Phoenix. Last Sunday. Approaching from the north looking for a transition.

Not the controller’s fault, he was buried, but just saying it happens.
 
dans2992 said:
Phoenix. Last Sunday. Approaching from the north looking for a transition.

Not the controller’s fault, he was buried, but just saying it happens.
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PHX is known for that a bit. Especially that side when DVT is busy and PHX is landing east/west.
 
denverpilot said:
PHX is known for that a bit. Especially that side when DVT is busy and PHX is landing east/west.
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Yeah, they need to sort something out. That said, as I mentioned recently on some thread, I noticed them giving pretty good services to VFR aircraft in that area recently. Might have been that controller - he was excellent.
 
N1120A said:
Yeah, they need to sort something out. That said, as I mentioned recently on some thread, I noticed them giving pretty good services to VFR aircraft in that area recently. Might have been that controller - he was excellent.
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They have it sorted for IFRs. ;) Too much training traffic to sort it for VFR.

It’s not uncommon for DVT to be working 30 aircraft.

And there’s mass training all over Ye Olde Valley of the Sun. Busy and lots of student pilots with and without instructors.

It’s a bit of a zoo.
 
denverpilot said:
They have it sorted for IFRs. ;) Too much training traffic to sort it for VFR.

It’s not uncommon for DVT to be working 30 aircraft.

And there’s mass training all over Ye Olde Valley of the Sun. Busy and lots of student pilots with and without instructors.

It’s a bit of a zoo.
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World's busiest airspace doesn't have issues giving flight following.
 
dans2992 said:
Phoenix. Last Sunday. Approaching from the north looking for a transition.

Not the controller’s fault, he was buried, but just saying it happens.
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It does happen...and like Dan, I don't fault the controllers.

ADS-B is a wonderful thing when you can't/don't get FF. Also, knowing the common routes/descent profiles of jets helps a lot. Like the 737s coming into Ontario from the north...they typically cross the mountains between Lake Arrowhead and Big Bear, then make a big sweeping descending right turn to line up for final. So if I'm heading east to, say, Phoenix, I'll stay lower and between the mountains and the 10 till I get out to Redlands or so.
 
Short trip in an unfamiliar area yes. Short trip where most of my hours accumulated, nope.
 
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