PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Good points
Lol.
Good points
1) Do not become dependent on it to the point of forgetting “see & avoid”.
2) FF is not always available. It’s on an ATC workload basis.
1) Do not become dependent on it to the point of forgetting “see & avoid”.
2) FF is not always available. It’s on an ATC workload basis.
Yup, calling traffic for you is one of their lower priorities. And occasionally one gets by them.
WTF are you talking about?Yeah, discourage people from doing the safe thing because they sometimes miss a traffic call (which they do IFR as well) and might rarely give you an unable that may well be remedied by switching frequencies.
And no, it’s not easier on the controller if you call for FF.
This surprises me. I think a lot of ATC promo about FF says it helps controllers.
I feel self-conscious flying in busy airspace without FF, especially when I'm listening to approach and hear them call out my aircraft. Double if the issue a vector to avoid me.
I often fly 10 minutes to a point where I can't use FF, where I need to be on the CTAF; so for those flights I don't get FF, but I monitor.
I did not see his post as discouraging. Just pointing out limitations of the service and common errors when we get complacent.Yeah, discourage people from doing the safe thing because they sometimes miss a traffic call (which they do IFR as well) and might rarely give you an unable that may well be remedied by switching frequencies.
But not so much so as to be an undue burden, otherwise they could just refuse service, right? And the only way to find out if it will be an undue burden would be to request services, no? Plus the controller can at any time say "radarservicesterminatedsquawkVFR" as has happened to me before...It’s only common sense that the controller’s workload will increase.
But not so much so as to be an undue burden, otherwise they could just refuse service, right? And the only way to find out if it will be an undue burden would be to request services, no? Plus the controller can at any time say "radarservicesterminatedsquawkVFR" as has happened to me before...
WTF are you talking about?
I did not see his post as discouraging. Just pointing out limitations of the service and common errors when we get complacent.
I don’t see where he discouraged using FF.I'm talking about the tone of the message.
I don't agree with that at all. See and avoid is a concept that applies to IFR flying, where ATC is required to provide traffic separation. That separation doesn't mean you don't still look out the window, if you can, and apply visual separation, if able. Regardless, just because ATC will sometimes miss a call on FF isn't a reason to avoid it.
I'm talking about the tone of the message.
I don't agree with that at all. See and avoid is a concept that applies to IFR flying, where ATC is required to provide traffic separation. That separation doesn't mean you don't still look out the window, if you can, and apply visual separation, if able. Regardless, just because ATC will sometimes miss a call on FF isn't a reason to avoid it.
The only tone problem is in your head. You say here exactly what I said, so by your standard, your tone sucks too. SMH. I never said avoid FF, in fact I say quite the opposite.
Yeah, all in my head. Ok dude.
LOL. "Fun Flying". FF is a tool, nothing else. FF is no guarantee against a Near Mid-Air much less an actual one. It's just another layer of safety. Nothing more.I'll be one of the dissenters, I never use FF... but I fly an open cockpit plane with no transponder, I rarely fly over 2000' AGL, and I go into tower fields less than once a year. Not that I won't, I learned to fly at a busy towered field, they're just not the kind of places I enjoy going into in an open cockpit biplane.
First, See and avoid is a requirement. Flight Following isn't.I'm talking about the tone of the message.
I don't agree with that at all. See and avoid is a concept that applies to IFR flying, where ATC is required to provide traffic separation. That separation doesn't mean you don't still look out the window, if you can, and apply visual separation, if able. Regardless, just because ATC will sometimes miss a call on FF isn't a reason to avoid it.
It's a great and useful tool to back up your Mark I Eyeball.I rarely used to get FF. Now I always get FF. Flying in the Los Angeles basin, there is so much traffic that it really is the safest way to fly around in this part of the country. And it helps so much to get the call outs for traffic. Even though I can't see half of them. But at least I am on alert looking.
It can. It can also turn into that joke heard from Ohare Approach "PUT YOUR COMPASS ON E AND GET THE HELL OUT OF MY AIRSPACE!"This surprises me. I think a lot of ATC promo about FF says it helps controllers.
I feel self-conscious flying in busy airspace without FF, especially when I'm listening to approach and hear them call out my aircraft. Double if the issue a vector to avoid me.
I often fly 10 minutes to a point where I can't use FF, where I need to be on the CTAF; so for those flights I don't get FF, but I monitor.
unless they're carrying avian transponders.
I didn't see anything in either of their posts as discouraging anyone from doing it. Just pointing out it has some limitations and to not over rely on it. Which is sage advice.Yeah, discourage people from doing the safe thing because they sometimes miss a traffic call (which they do IFR as well) and might rarely give you an unable that may well be remedied by switching frequencies.
It's a great and useful tool to back up your Mark I Eyeball.
I used to fly out of MCAS Tustin in the early 80s. Somedays, and almost every sunset, when flying from the mountains to the airport, I was effectively IMC. Yes, I used El Toro or whatever I could to back up me on avoiding a mid-air or violating airspace.
I learned to fly 30 years ago at a military flying club on a towered airfield embedded in class C, so I got plenty of practice talking to ATC.
Years later, after several long breaks in flying, I found for some reason I had developed a lot of anxiety about talking to ATC. On one of my first trips last year after I bought my Decathlon, I flew for several hours trying to work up the nerve to call and ask for FF.
After a couple of long trips, including an XC from Florida to Oklahoma City done half at night, I got over my reluctance to call and chuckled at myself for having built it up to such an issue.
It was not timidity or lack of training. I have 24 years of professional experience talking on the radio in the Army. I have controlled complex field operations with multiple ground and air stations by radio. I have talked on the radio while getting shot at.
More than anything, it's probably a lack of familiarity with what is on the other side of the conversation, coupled with an ingrained desire to do things right and not disrupt the system. Becoming more familiar with the different types of ATC on FF and what their roles were was a big help in getting comfortable again.
I am based under Tampa Class B. I never call FF for local or short flights. For long flights, I usually get away from the metro area and call Jax Center. Seems like we get mixed messages on whether ATC would prefer local flights under Class B on FF or not. Some pilots say it helps ATC, but then we have real live controllers on this thread saying not so much. If my presence adds to congestion, I'd rather just see and avoid on short hops.
One of my favorite things to do with Private Pilot students on their dual cross country flights has been contacting every possible facility and getting their taxpayer money's worth.
Flightwatch is gone now, and DF steers are a thing of the past, so there are not as many radio people to talk to any more... Am I forgetting anyone else?
That's a good point. For local flights under Class B with ADS-B In, my SA on traffic is just as good as what I would get from FF. So perhaps there is little added value to justify the extra system workload. I might miss my call sign on a busy freq but I am not going to miss the big yellow traffic alert bloom on my iPad.If you don’t have any in cockpit electronic traffic aids ...
No pilot should be uncomfortable talking to ATC. They are one of the best tools out there to help you. It amazes me how many pilots avoid C and D airspace because they don’t feel comfortable talking to another person.
Years later, after several long breaks in flying, I found for some reason I had developed a lot of anxiety about talking to ATC. On one of my first trips last year after I bought my Decathlon, I flew for several hours trying to work up the nerve to call and ask for FF.
No it’s not easier but it is generally safer. If it were easier, then FF would never get denied.
Years ago, when I was a student pilot, I bumbled my way through a call up to approach control and was berated by the controller. At first, I was self conscious, and it made me want to avoid talking to any controller at all costs, if possible. I eventually did my checkride at a Class D, and didn't have any problems, but I never forgot that first exchange while training. Then, after becoming a newly licensed pilot, I avoided FF like the plague, all because of that one exchange. When I started instrument training, my communication skills became proficient and I learned to love the exchange with ATC. I often wondered how many pilots have had experiences with a controller like I did, and it made them shy away from FF because of it. Every now and then I would hear that same controller chew someone out who wasn't good on the radio, and it started to make me a little upset. I often wondered if he was purposely being a jerk so his job would be a little easier and he wasn't very good at it, either that, or he was a grumpy old man that just needed to retire. The man had absolutely 0 patience, and I wonder if aviation safety ever suffered because of it.
I once was flying through Oklahoma, VFR on a very, very hazy evening. It was really hard to see traffic and the sun wasn't helping either. I called up OKC approach and requested flight following, and was told that he was unable because of workload. Because of the conditions I decided to immediately call flight service and air file an IFR flight plan for the remainder of my flight. It only took about 2 minutes, and upon callup, that same controller seemed extremely irritated that I had done that. There was nothing he could do, but he certainly wasn't happy about it. Of the hundreds of controllers I have talked with over the years, those were the only two that I can remember that were what I would call real A-holes. They really stuck out. The vast majority, and I certainly mean VAST majority, have been great. I think it is kind of sad that safety of aviation may be affected by the attitude of so few. If people reject FF because of single exchanges like that, I don't think there are any winners.
Controllers will encourage pilots to call for FF because 1) it adds to their traffic count. Though VFRs aren’t weighted as heavily as IFRs. And 2) they’re trying to be good ambassadors of ATC to the pilot community. They’ll say, “well I want you to call me because it’s safer if I know what you’re doing.”
When I did ATC, I had a pilot friend asked if he should call for FF. Worried that it’s an annoyance. I told him I couldn’t care less if he called. I got paid the same either way and I’m still gonna throw a flight of four F-18s by you regardless. You can either not call and be surprised of their presence, or you can call and have an awareness of the “sharks” that are in the area. I’m still gonna vector traffic around them. Whether or not they call or not, didn’t change that.
Years ago, when I was a student pilot, I bumbled my way through a call up to approach control and was berated by the controller. At first, I was self conscious, and it made me want to avoid talking to any controller at all costs, if possible. I eventually did my checkride at a Class D, and didn't have any problems, but I never forgot that first exchange while training. Then, after becoming a newly licensed pilot, I avoided FF like the plague, all because of that one exchange. When I started instrument training, my communication skills became proficient and I learned to love the exchange with ATC. I often wondered how many pilots have had experiences with a controller like I did, and it made them shy away from FF because of it. Every now and then I would hear that same controller chew someone out who wasn't good on the radio, and it started to make me a little upset. I often wondered if he was purposely being a jerk so his job would be a little easier and he wasn't very good at it, either that, or he was a grumpy old man that just needed to retire. The man had absolutely 0 patience, and I wonder if aviation safety ever suffered because of it.
I chuckled at this, because I would have said the same thing. I was a military controller for 8 years, both approach and tower, and preferred to have a VFR Aircraft on my freq. It was safer for all involved, even if it did increase my workload. Even in the middle of a big push, everyone was more aware of what was happening in the airspace.
That's unfortunate that that controller berated you. On a busy freq, long rambling intro's were annoying, and as a controller drove me a bit crazy, but I'd never dare to lecture a pilot on air. I asked one to call me once when he got on the ground, and then asked him to try to keep it a bit more succinct in the future. Ironically, I've never been know for my strict phraseology. I used to get beat up about it a bit as a controller, and now that I'm in primary training, my instructor pokes at me for extra words "with you", "to the" etc. Unless you're in a very busy airspace with limited dead time, Say what you need to say as succinctly as you can, but don't stress about perfection.
As for the Flight Following, I think I end up wanting to get it more than my instructor. He's pretty comfortable flying without, but I generally just tell him that I'm getting it "for practice" when we are away from our home airport and the nearby practice area.