Flight Following Below 3500??

itsjames2011

itsjames2011

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James
So lately I have been opting to pick up Flight Following on all of my cross country flights. A lot of the time I'm going to head westbound and climbing up to 4500 to meet the VFR altitude requirements. As of late the winds aloft have been much better at 2500 - 3000 versus 4500.

Is it possible to request flight following if you're intending to cruise below 3500?
 
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It all depends on radar (and radio) coverage.
 
So there's no hard fast rule that says you have to be up at a hemispheric cruising altitude, you just have to be high enough for radio and radar coverage?
 
...but my experience has been the same as the OP... around here (northern alabama) they start telling me they either can no longer see me, or might lose me, once I drop below 3500.

I hate to do it, too. But not being instrument rated (yet), I've elected to go under a broken layer on multiple occasions rather than go over and not be able to get back down. It's hot and usually bumpy under there. Ick.
 
No flight following at 3500 msl around these parts...:D
 
itsjames2011 said:
So there's no hard fast rule that says you have to be up at a hemispheric cruising altitude, you just have to be high enough for radio and radar coverage?
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In general, there is: 14 CFR 91.159, above 3,000ft AGL.

Specifically to get flight following? No. They just need to see you on ether radar.
 
My apologies. I'm barely 100 hours into my ticket and I question everything :D
 
itsjames2011 said:
Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I believe vfr cruising altitude restrictions begin above 3000 AGL not MSL.
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You are entirely correct AFAIK...still there is no flight following available at 3500 msl where I am....:D
 
I get flight following below 3500' all the time. It's rarely an issue for me, but it's pretty flat here. Heading up to Gaston's they'll drop me as I get close if I'm below 5000' due to radar coverage, but that's the only place I've ever been dropped.
 
itsjames2011 said:
So lately I have been opting to pick up Flight Following on all of my cross country flights. A lot of the time I'm going to head westbound and climbing up to 4500 to meet the VFR altitude requirements. As of late the winds aloft have been much better at 2500 - 3000 versus 4500.

Is it possible to request flight following if you're intending to cruise below 3500?
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Why? You are barely flying under hemispherical rule. Most of the time ARTCC won't even be able to see the traffic around you, or you for that matter. And if they can, you will be mixing it up with local guys at local airports no doubt who are flying near pattern altitude. Get high, altitude is your friend.
 
It is pretty flat here. I request FF as early as upwind and on the ground if I am at a controlled field.

If you can hear them and they can hear you. Use their services.
 
I flew for 5 hours at altitudes of 7500-9500 and never could get flight following, or any radio contact.....

Of course, I was rarely 500 -1000 agl...
 
I was at 15,000 MSL over the rockies and could not get flight following (or even talk to anyone on the radio!)

Then again, it was not all that high AGL-wise....

There's also an area around (or just north of) Death Valley where you can be at oxygen altitudes and still fall off their scope.
 
Just yesterday, I had flight following for ground reference maneuvers over the Sacramento Delta. WAY under 3500 AGL.
 
madtrader said:
Heading up to Gaston's they'll drop me as I get close if I'm below 5000' due to radar coverage, but that's the only place I've ever been dropped.
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A good portion of the "hilly parts" of southern Missouri and northern Arkansas have this challenge.
 
dans2992 said:
I was at 15,000 MSL over the rockies and could not get flight following (or even talk to anyone on the radio!).
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That would be very rare these days. Most of the higher altitude G is gone and radar coverage is pretty good (all things considered). The change seems to have coincided with extending ADS-B into Wyoming. Anyway and for whatever, radar coverage has changed.
 
Most of the places around here you can get FF to the ground. ROA however can't see you below 3000 in some sectors.
 
We often get FF at low altitudes. Only very occasionally will they tell us that they will not be able to track us in certain areas due to low altitude.
 
denverpilot said:
You missed the joke. There is no 3500 MSL here. :)
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:lol:

since central Georgia is slightly lower than the Rocky Mountains, I have heard people getting flight following at altitudes below 3k. It's unusual since most people will tend to go a little higher for longer trips.
 
Flying from Central Arkansas to SW Kansas works out to something like this:
- They won't give FF below 6500 to start with
- If I'm flying 8500 over the OK panhandle, I'll eventually hear "Squawk VFR - frequency change approved."

Of course, if you hit another airplane in that desolate area... well... winning the lottery is more likely ...
 
Clark1961 said:
That would be very rare these days. Most of the higher altitude G is gone and radar coverage is pretty good (all things considered). The change seems to have coincided with extending ADS-B into Wyoming. Anyway and for whatever, radar coverage has changed.
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No it isn't.

It happens over sparsely populated mountains all the time.

Just east of Yosemite Valley at 11500 (which is well above the terrain there, with line of sight into the Central Valley), I lost flight following as well. First radar contact, then the airliner contacts with Oakland Center became one-sided.
 
In GA and FL, I found the limiting factor is radio range. Below 3500ft you start getting really spotty comms. I have had to decide after completely losing comms whether to keep squawking my assigned code or go back to 1200. After about an hour without being able to raise ATC I made a call in the blind to cancel FF due to lost radio contact and went to 1200.
 
bullwinkle said:
In GA and FL, I found the limiting factor is radio range.
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Exactly. It is entirely dependent on location based on radio and radar coverage. I used to get FF around the Rhode Island/eastern Mass area below 3000' all the time. Out west..,, not so much.
 
I get it at 3000 feet ALL the time if I cant get above a layer. But I am in Florida.. pretty flat - never lost radar contact....
 
In Colorado, even on the flats sometimes you can't get FF at low altitudes. Someone made a comment about radar not going down hill, though I'm not sure that explains it all.
 
Since we're having a Flight Following availability thread, I'll share my experience from my first true cross-country last week (DC to LA). I flew from KGAI in Maryland over to Kansas City, down to Albuquerque, south to Deming NM, up to Phoenix, and over to LA. I had flight following the entire time, even when I was picking my way around the mountains at just 6500' MSL between Deming and Phoenix (ceilings were too low for higher, but air was smooth and vis was great). Even when I started dropping off radar on that segment the controller kept me and would periodically ask for my position -- I like talking to someone, especially over the middle of nowhere, so this was very comforting for someone far from home.

I was expecting, based on stories I've heard, that I would have trouble getting FF or they would frequently be dropping me, but I never lost comms with ARTCC or TRACONs the whole way, and when I did drop off radar they kept me on the code and kept talking to me until their radars picked me back up. I was impressed with the level of service I received out west compared to what I get back east where it's more common to get a busy controller who doesn't have time to deal with you.
 
Sometimes a helpful controller will tell you if he expects to lose contact. You may then be able to climb to keep it, if weather and terrain cooperate.

I had this happen in southern Washington. It also happens regularly over the Sierra, but there's not a whole lot I can do about that.
 
itsjames2011 said:
My apologies. I'm barely 100 hours into my ticket and I question everything :D
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Feel free, it's the only way to learn. But also remember there are lots of jokers around here, and not everyone lives at sea level.

Or below 5000 msl.
 
madtrader said:
I get flight following below 3500' all the time. It's rarely an issue for me, but it's pretty flat here. Heading up to Gaston's they'll drop me as I get close if I'm below 5000' due to radar coverage, but that's the only place I've ever been dropped.
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Denver drops FF if you're flying below 3000 AGL in the eastern plains yet no problem if you're headed south towards New Mexico.
 
dans2992 said:
I was at 15,000 MSL over the rockies and could not get flight following (or even talk to anyone on the radio!)
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And that's why. Radio is line-of-sight. Example, KAPA to KALS (south of Denver to Alamosa), draw a straight line from Denver ARTCC to the top of the hills. No radio contact until well into the San Luis Valley unless you're IFR (and much higher). Denver will tell you they're losing you on radar and call back when you get thru the hills.

Welcome to geometry.
Then again, it was not all that high AGL-wise....

There's also an area around (or just north of) Death Valley where you can be at oxygen altitudes and still fall off their scope.
Click to expand...
 
flyingron said:
In Colorado, even on the flats sometimes you can't get FF at low altitudes. Someone made a comment about radar not going down hill, though I'm not sure that explains it all.
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On the eastern plains, Denver sets the radar filter a bit higher than you might like....I've been at 2500 AGL and 3500 and told they lost me on radar. Yet going Denver to Pueblo at the same 2500/3500 AGL, no problem, FF all the way. Might be the traffic density. The Denver-Pueblo corridor has USAF Academy and the USAF IPT with high volume traffic during the week.
 
MAKG1 said:
Sometimes a helpful controller will tell you if he expects to lose contact. You may then be able to climb to keep it, if weather and terrain cooperate.

I had this happen in southern Washington. It also happens regularly over the Sierra, but there's not a whole lot I can do about that.
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I've been asked to report position a few times since they didn't have me on radar but still had flight following active
 
murphey said:
And that's why. Radio is line-of-sight. Example, KAPA to KALS (south of Denver to Alamosa), draw a straight line from Denver ARTCC to the top of the hills. No radio contact until well into the San Luis Valley unless you're IFR (and much higher). Denver will tell you they're losing you on radar and call back when you get thru the hills.

Welcome to geometry.
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Except that they have a number of mountaintop remotes. The line from the ARTCC to somewhere may not be the actual radio path they're talking to you on.

Generally but not always, if you see one of the FSS RCOs on the chart, there's also remotes for ZDV at the same location. It's mainly because those are the radio sites with either copper land line service or State or Federal microwave shots carrying a T1 or two to a channel bank at the site. Some of that stuff is now being replaced with IP backbones and SIP but if it's working they're not upgrading right now. The techs are busy twiddling with the new ADS-B sites.

The Badger Mountain RCO was dead for months last year, even in good weather. Generally, repairs are not happening very quickly, I've noticed. One if the FAA techs I know is covering multiple States and has been living out of a hotel every other week for at least three years now.
 
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