Flight Following and Class 'B'

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Tommy3

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Hello all--

Hypothetical:

You are VFR, with flight following, in contact with Approach. You are approaching a major airport and plan on going around it by staying under the Bravo airspace.

Then Approach gives you a new heading and altitude (say, at or below 2,000) that turns you into the the part of the Bravo that goes all the way down to the surface.

In this case, are you implicitly cleared to enter the Bravo, since the heading and altitude leave you no choice? Or not?

Now, of course one's best bet is to just verify with Approach that you're cleared to enter. But for sake of argument, what's the answer?
 
Tommy3 said:
are you implicitly cleared to enter the Bravo, since the heading and altitude leave you no choice? Or not?
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There is no implied clearance when it comes to Bravo airspace.

Unless you specifically hear your tail number and "Cleared into the Bravo" from the controller, you must keep away.

In my experience working around DFW's Bravo Space, the controllers are pretty good at keeping up with where they've "put" and "sent" you. If the altitude and route works for them, I've had both Departure and Approach clear me into the lower Bravo shelves without my asking.

A few times I've asked and gotten, "sorry, need to keep you clear of [xyz corridor]. Remain clear of Bravo Airspace."

Other times, I've asked for entry and got it after they worked out a few things.

And other times, I elected to stay clear, and when contacting approach and telling them I was descending so I wouldn't be in the Bravo, they've thanked me and said that helps them.

But do remember, you cannot enter the Bravo Airspace on an "implicit" clearance. The clearance must be clearly stated by the controller and repeated back by the PIC.
 
A few months ago I was flying from Portsmouth to Mansfield, and the direct route was directly through the middle of the Boston Class B. I had already been giving flight following by Portsmouth Ground, and I asked Boston Approach for a "class bravo transit" when I was handed off to them. The controller told me to "expect a bravo clearance after the next hand-off".

The next controller told me "cleared direct Mansfield". Realizing that I hadn't heard the magic words I asked, "Am I cleared into the class bravo?" She replied, "You're IFR, correct?" I told her, "Negative, we're VFR". I'm glad I spoke up because I'm not even instrument rated and she would have handled me as an IFR flight.
 
Ever time I get flight following and tell them I am going to a airport that will be around Brovo I get this, "How do you plane to transverse Brovo?" Not one time but every time.
 
I almost always get FF and I always ask for bravo clearance when I fly around the Denver area. I get it about 90% of the time.
 
Yeah, that makes sense. So what do you do in the hypothetical?

Do you just turn off-course, thus violating the assigned heading? Isn't that a no-go, too?
 
Tommy3 said:
Yeah, that makes sense. So what do you do in the hypothetical?

Do you just turn off-course, thus violating the assigned heading? Isn't that a no-go, too?
Click to expand...

Why not just ask? No need making it harder than it is.
 
Tommy3 said:
Yeah, that makes sense. So what do you do in the hypothetical?

Do you just turn off-course, thus violating the assigned heading? Isn't that a no-go, too?
Click to expand...

Either ask for clearance or cancel flight following and remain clear of the bravo on your own.

"Approach, N123CD, confirm cleared into the Bravo?"

They'll either clear you right away if that was their intent all along, or they'll say something like "N123CD, XX Approach. Negative, remain clear of the Bravo." At that point you'll need to query about your vectors if you think they're turning you into the Bravo because you CANNOT enter.
 
Tommy3 said:
Hello all--


Then Approach gives you a new heading and altitude (say, at or below 2,000) that turns you into the the part of the Bravo that goes all the way down to the surface.
Click to expand...

Why would Approach be assigning heading and altitude to a VFR flight outside the Class B? :confused:
 
dukeblue219 said:
Either ask for clearance or cancel flight following and remain clear of the bravo on your own.

"Approach, N123CD, confirm cleared into the Bravo?"

They'll either clear you right away if that was their intent all along, or they'll say something like "N123CD, XX Approach. Negative, remain clear of the Bravo." At that point you'll need to query about your vectors if you think they're turning you into the Bravo because you CANNOT enter.
Click to expand...

Once or twice when I tried to get clearance in a Bravo and got denied I did get the "squak 1200 , remain clear of of the Bravo", and I was pretty sure they were not busy based on listening to other traffic on the radio ...I turned my transponder to standby and let them guess where I was..:wink2:

It would have been ALOT easier on them to let me play their game.:D..
 
rottydaddy said:
Why would Approach be assigning heading and altitude to a VFR flight outside the Class B? :confused:
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:yeahthat: My thought exactly...

Unless it was for traffic avoidance, but still not a requirement to abide by. Now if the only two options were continuing and hit the traffic or take a Bravo bust, I'm taking the bust. But if you're doing your job as VFR PIC correctly and seeing-and-avoiding traffic, than both of those should be a non-issue.
 
rottydaddy said:
Why would Approach be assigning heading and altitude to a VFR flight outside the Class B? :confused:
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Well, if you're on flight following, talking to Approach, outside the 'B' but still in controlled airspace, and Approach gives you a heading/altitude, you have to comply, no? (91.123)
 
Tommy3 said:
Well, if you're on flight following, talking to Approach, outside the 'B' but still in controlled airspace, and Approach gives you a heading/altitude, you have to comply, no? (91.123)
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"Unable" is a very valid response.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
"Unable" is a very valid response.
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An excellent point, but does it really make sense to say "unable, ATC, you have not cleared me into that airspace". (Not being sarcastic here, wondering if you think this is a reasonable thing to say under the circumstances.)
 
Tommy3 said:
An excellent point, but does it really make sense to say "unable, ATC, you have not cleared me into that airspace". (Not being sarcastic here, wondering if you think this is a reasonable thing to say under the circumstances.)
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You are PIC. You are the final authority. If you feel, for whatever reason, you cannot/should not obey an ATC instruction, then why would "unable" not be a reasonable response?
 
Tommy3 said:
Well, if you're on flight following, talking to Approach, outside the 'B' but still in controlled airspace, and Approach gives you a heading/altitude, you have to comply, no? (91.123)
Click to expand...

That's not how traffic advisories work. Approach recommends a heading and/or altitude in Class E for traffic avoidance.

You are not under IFR.

Inside Class B is another story.
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
You are PIC. You are the final authority. If you feel, for whatever reason, you cannot/should not obey an ATC instruction, then why would "unable" not be a reasonable response?
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It would not be reasonable, arguably, because the entity from whom you'd have to get permission, and who is responsible for that airspace, is the very one directing you into that airspace. So it's not a trivial issue as you suggest.

The FARs do not require the 'magic words', they require only that one receive an 'ATC clearance' before entering 'B'. And 'clearances' generally allow one to penetrate Class 'B' without the magic words being used (e.g. an IFR clearance).

I don't disagree with you on the merits, but I do think that the solution is not as simple as you suggest.
 
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MAKG1 said:
That's not how traffic advisories work. Approach recommends a heading and/or altitude in Class E for traffic avoidance.

You are not under IFR.

Inside Class B is another story.
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Ah, interesting, thanks! I just figured if you were in controlled airspace and ATC gave you an instruction you were obliged to follow it.
 
Tommy3 said:
Ah, interesting, thanks! I just figured if you were in controlled airspace and ATC gave you an instruction you were obliged to follow it.
Click to expand...

You are, but it isn't going to happen in Class E. It might happen in B, C, or D.

"Unable" works wonders.

I've been in an analogous situation inside Class C, talking to San Jose Tower.

"Cessna 123XY San Jose Tower cross midfield at or above 2000."
"San Jose Tower Cessna 123XY unable due to clouds at that altitude"
"Cessna 123XY proceed heading 300 maintain VFR" [parallel to the runway]

later...well past the airport

"Cessna 123XY fly direct Moffett Field"

I've never had an issue with erroneous instructions into Class B, but instructions contrary to VFR minimums does happen on occasion. Approach in particular is in another city (suburban Sacramento) and can't look out the window. San Jose Tower just didn't.
 
MAKG1 said:
You are, but it isn't going to happen in Class E.
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I have received heading and altitude direction from ATC while in 'E' (while on advisories).
 
Tommy3 said:
I have received heading and altitude direction from ATC while in 'E' (while on advisories).
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Sure, it happens all the time, but again, they are merely advisories and recommended to you by ATC. They are not clearences which must be obeyed unless amended or in an emergency situation.
 
N801BH said:
Once or twice when I tried to get clearance in a Bravo and got denied I did get the "squak 1200 , remain clear of of the Bravo", and I was pretty sure they were not busy based on listening to other traffic on the radio ...I turned my transponder to standby and let them guess where I was..
Click to expand...

Inside the Mode-C veil?
 
dukeblue219 said:
Either ask for clearance or cancel flight following and remain clear of the bravo on your own.

"Approach, N123CD, confirm cleared into the Bravo?"
Click to expand...
Really? Why would one take 2 seconds to be sure when one can always guess?

(yes, that was tongue-in-cheek)

Hearing the words is important. I was once in the Denver Class B when I moved into a new sector. Controller who thought I had not received a Bravo clearance, and wanted me out of there) asked me what I was doing there. Knowing that the "magic words" were spoken was a great comfort.

As an exact opposite to accepting an inferred clearance, I always "confirm cleared into the Bravo" especially if I think it was intended of I am given a path that will take me there. And I've gotten both yes and no answers when I've asked.
 
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Tommy3 said:
Hello all--

Hypothetical:

You are VFR, with flight following, in contact with Approach. You are approaching a major airport and plan on going around it by staying under the Bravo airspace.

Then Approach gives you a new heading and altitude (say, at or below 2,000) that turns you into the the part of the Bravo that goes all the way down to the surface.

In this case, are you implicitly cleared to enter the Bravo, since the heading and altitude leave you no choice? Or not?

Now, of course one's best bet is to just verify with Approach that you're cleared to enter. But for sake of argument, what's the answer?
Click to expand...

I think I wrote about this exact scenario happening to me several years ago in Chi-App airspace.

After getting the new heading and altitude from Chicago I realized I was going to be into the Class B. Since I know you need to hear the magic words, 'cleared into class bravo,' I contacted approach and asked to confirm I was cleared into the bravo airspace. After getting what seemed like a 5 minute chewing out from the controller for asking such a dumb question and that the clearance was implied, he changed his tone and said that of course I should have been told. I could almost see the supervisors hand hitting him on the shoulder mid rant and telling him that VFR must be cleared with a distinct phrase.

Bottom line, no implied clearance while VFR, you must hear the words. IFR is another matter.
 
Tommy3 said:
Well, if you're on flight following, talking to Approach, outside the 'B' but still in controlled airspace, and Approach gives you a heading/altitude, you have to comply, no? (91.123)
Click to expand...
What controlled airspace do you mean? Even in a C or D airspace, despite needing to establish comms and maybe being given specific instructions from the tower related to entering or leaving the pattern, ATC is not "exercising control" (to paraphrase part of 91.123) over VFR flights. Remember, "controlled" airspace doesn't always mean ATC tells everybody what to do.


That being said, sure, they might recommend a maneuver for traffic or weather avoidance, or just request it to make everyone's life easier in a busy terminal environment (like where there are embedded or underlying Class D and E airports within the boundaries of a B airspace). Such "commands" usually have a good reason behind them, so most pilots comply.

But all of that is unrelated to what you do when you are about to enter a "by invitation only" airspace like the B... regardless of why you're headed that way, you'd just make sure you hear "cleared to enter" before doing so. If you don't hear that, and maneuver to avoid the B despite being asked or told to fly into it, you aren't busting any regs. You might rustle some controller's jimmies, but that is nothing compared to entering a B without the "magic words."
 
Tommy3 said:
Yeah, that makes sense. So what do you do in the hypothetical? Do you just turn off-course, thus violating the assigned heading? Isn't that a no-go, too?
Click to expand...
Say "understand cleared into the Bravo heading xxx at yy thousand." Don't let up on that until the controller says either "affirmative" or "negative."
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
Sure, it happens all the time, but again, they are merely advisories and recommended to you by ATC. They are not clearences which must be obeyed unless amended or in an emergency situation.
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However, they are "instructions," and 91.123 requires obedience to instructions unless it would cause an emergency or violate another rule. And yes, that has been tested before the NTSB and addressed by the Chief Counsel.
 
Ron Levy said:
Many reasons, starting with avoiding a conflict with other traffic s/he is working.
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I concur. I experienced this a few months ago after departing KCDW on my way back to KFRG. NY approach vectored me around jet traffic he was working into KTEB.

I was assigned headings and altitudes. He kept me on the west side of KTEB approach path for awhile, before turning me eastbound. This was VFR flight following outside of the Bravo. It was actually fun for this IFR wanna be:)
 
rottydaddy said:
What controlled airspace do you mean? Even in a C or D airspace, despite needing to establish comms and maybe being given specific instructions from the tower related to entering or leaving the pattern, ATC is not "exercising control" (to paraphrase part of 91.123) over VFR flights.
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Sure. After a busy Class D Tower or Class C controller tells you to fly a heading, maintain an altitude or enter the pattern in a certain way, do something completely different, tell the controller you intentionally didn't follow the instruction because it was only a recommendation and you didn't have to. Let us all know how that works out from a 91.123 enforcement standpoint.
 
Tommy3 said:
Hello all--

Hypothetical:

You are VFR, with flight following, in contact with Approach. You are approaching a major airport and plan on going around it by staying under the Bravo airspace.

Then Approach gives you a new heading and altitude (say, at or below 2,000) that turns you into the the part of the Bravo that goes all the way down to the surface.

In this case, are you implicitly cleared to enter the Bravo, since the heading and altitude leave you no choice? Or not?

Now, of course one's best bet is to just verify with Approach that you're cleared to enter. But for sake of argument, what's the answer?
Click to expand...

This is the very scenario I like to present to those that believe pilots must comply with all instructions issued by controllers, including those that controllers are not authorized to issue. You've been issued a heading and altitude that if followed will take you into Class B airspace, but have not been issued a clearance to enter that airspace. So which FAR do you violate, 91.123 or 91.131?
 
AggieMike88 said:
There is no implied clearance when it comes to Bravo airspace.

Unless you specifically hear your tail number and "Cleared into the Bravo" from the controller, you must keep away.
Click to expand...

I think there are many implied clearances when it comes to Bravo airspace. If you receive an IFR clearance from some ATC facility distant from the Class B airspace area, you wont hear "Cleared into the Bravo" from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area.
 
roncachamp said:
I think there are many implied clearances when it comes to Bravo airspace. If you receive an IFR clearance from some ATC facility distant from the Class B airspace area, you wont hear "Cleared into the Bravo" from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area.
Click to expand...
People are talking about VFR in this thread.
 
Tommy3 said:
Yeah, that makes sense. So what do you do in the hypothetical?

Do you just turn off-course, thus violating the assigned heading? Isn't that a no-go, too?
Click to expand...

There are many that will tell you it is, but it isn't. The controller is not authorized to assign headings or altitudes in the Class E/G airspace outside of the Class B airspace area and no pilot has ever been violated for not following unauthorized ATC instructions.
 
N801BH said:
Once or twice when I tried to get clearance in a Bravo and got denied I did get the "squak 1200 , remain clear of of the Bravo", and I was pretty sure they were not busy based on listening to other traffic on the radio ...I turned my transponder to standby and let them guess where I was..:wink2:

It would have been ALOT easier on them to let me play their game.:D..
Click to expand...

How so?
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
:yeahthat: My thought exactly...

Unless it was for traffic avoidance, but still not a requirement to abide by. Now if the only two options were continuing and hit the traffic or take a Bravo bust, I'm taking the bust. But if you're doing your job as VFR PIC correctly and seeing-and-avoiding traffic, than both of those should be a non-issue.
Click to expand...

They shouldn't be issuing them for any reason.
 
Tommy3 said:
Well, if you're on flight following, talking to Approach, outside the 'B' but still in controlled airspace, and Approach gives you a heading/altitude, you have to comply, no? (91.123)
Click to expand...

That'd be like the military requiring compliance with unlawful orders.
 
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