roncachamp
Final Approach
I'd respond "verify cleared to enter Class Bravo airspace." If the response was "negative" or there was no response I'd remain clear of Class B airspace.
Flight Following and Class 'B'
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I'd respond "verify cleared to enter Class Bravo airspace." If the response was "negative" or there was no response I'd remain clear of Class B airspace.
Anymouse
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When confronted with this same scenario, I simply asked if I was cleared into the Class B airspace. The controller quickly cleared me in and thanked me for asking. As far as I know, I didn't violate either regulation.
roncachamp
Final Approach
The FAR requires "an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area." That certainly is not followed with IFR aircraft, most of them get their IFR clearance from some other ATC facility, and do not receive any clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for the area until after entry, such as an approach clearance.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Many pilots have, but it's an error by the controller nonetheless.
roncachamp
Final Approach
They are advisories when stated as an advisory; "“Traffic alert, Skylane three four Alpha, advise you turn left and climb immediately.”
HighFlyingA380
Cleared for Takeoff
I understand that and absolutely agree. Just saying often controllers won't say "advise" or "suggest" you do something, they'll normally just tell you to do something. That's where it becomes the controllers mistake in thinking they can tell you what to do when they can't.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Why? 91.131 Operations in Class B airspace is not a Visual Flight Rule, it's a General Flight Rule, and it does not distinguish between VFR and IFR operations for entry.
roncachamp
Final Approach
That would call for a traffic advisory and possibly a safety alert, but not assigning a heading or altitude.
roncachamp
Final Approach
No, they have not.
roncachamp
Final Approach
I concur. I experienced this a few months ago after departing KCDW on my way back to KFRG. NY approach vectored me around jet traffic he was working into KTEB.
I was assigned headings and altitudes. He kept me on the west side of KTEB approach path for awhile, before turning me eastbound. This was VFR flight following outside of the Bravo. It was actually fun for this IFR wanna be
Controller error.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Correct.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Agreed, I'd do the same.
rottydaddy
En-Route
I've done my share of VFR flying in C, D and E airspaces, and other than entering or leaving the pattern (!!!), have never gotten any directive to fly a specific heading and altitude, for any reason. In fact, I have rarely had any suggestion offered for traffic avoidance, other than a bearing to the traffic and its altitude. I've been asked to follow this or that, hold here or there, report here or there, remain clear of this or that... been asked if I would please climb or descend or veer this way or that... but never have I been told "XXX degrees" and "XXXX feet."
If I did, I'd probably comply, but I might at least dare to ask why. ATC does not reign atop Olympus... their power and authority have limits. They also make mistakes. I've been placed in jeopardy more than once by blindly trusting controllers to have a clearer view of the Big Picture than I did. It is not always so, and the regs acknowledge that you have the right to go "huh?" if compliance could create a hazard.
If I ever get called on the carpet for, say, questioning or refusing a controller's "instructing" me, when enroute ,under VFR, in a Class E, to fly a specific heading and altitude that would take me right into a Bravo without a clearance, I will have this quote handy (from the letter cited in your own post):
"If the pilot only received the vector for traffic from ATC, the pilot did not receive a clearance or instruction from ATC. Therefore, any maneuvering by the pilot is not a violation of § 91.123."
Get it? "Fly heading 030 and maintain 2000" for a VFR flight enroute in Class E (or even C or D) airspace is not a clearance or instruction, whether intended for traffic avoidance or any other purpose. Technically, it is a request. Arguing that "you're better off just doing what they say" is invalid, in my book. I'd rather get yelled at than actually bust a reg... or end up dead.
I don't expect them to say "pretty please", but I would be dubious... in fact, my first thought would be that it was an error; that the controller had me mixed up with some IFR flight or forgot I was VFR.
Pilot and controller must understand their roles thoroughly, or safety is compromised.
redtail
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Although I do understand the technicality of what you guys are saying, in my case, I was under the NY Class B in very busy airspace during a very busy time of day (late afternoon). He was working a LOT of traffic! His radio work was continuous and almost nonstop.
Didn't think I'd get a Bravo clearance, so I didn't request one (maybe I should have). Next time I probably will.
Sure I could have just departed KCDW and been on my merry way to KFRG, as long as I stayed below the 3000' Bravo floor. However, in the interest of safety, I requested and was granted Flight Following.
Why should I be bothered by or refuse ATC vectors.. headings and altitudes for traffic avoidance, especially in this area
. I had multiple corporate jets going into KTEB. All on the MFD TIS and a few in sight. IMO if I'm going to refuse or ignore ATC "advisories", then I shouldn't bother them in the first place!Just squawk 1200 and go.
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Well, that is the ground truth. Thanks for posting it.
I don't think that's a good metaphor, since it's not obvious here whether it is unlawful; look at all the disagreement in this thread, for example. In the military, on the other hand, commanders are given very large leeway, and borderline cases like this one are almost always resolved in favor of the commander.
Right, and this would seem to support my argument.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Why should I be bothered by or refuse ATC vectors.. headings and altitudes for traffic avoidance, especially in this area
So don't be bothered by or refuse them, you're free to do that.
I don't believe anyone has suggested refusing or ignoring "advisories".
roncachamp
Final Approach
"Unlawful" in the sense that they are issued contrary to Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control.
rottydaddy
En-Route
Probably easier for them, too, and less chance of weird misunderstandings like the ones that led to the airplane/heli midair in that area not long ago. But don't assume you'll get cleared, LOL. Never tried it except to head east past JFK, and always wound up flying low over the beach (not that this is a bad thing).
Not a bad idea, although most of my flying prior to my check ride was out of KTEB or N07, and I was encouraged to stay low (but be smart about it). I've even "threaded the needle" below the B and between the KTEB and KCDW Ds a few times, just for the hell of it... not a big deal if you know the landmarks.
But I often wonder which is more of a headache for controllers- getting a FF request for slow traffic in that area, or sweating about all those 1200 squawks crawling around underneath everything. Maybe they just filter them out.
It's the OP's example that got me going... but my complaint would be less "you can't vector me!" than "why are you moving me into the Bravo without a clearance?!" The vast majority of requests, instructions, or whatever you want to call them are reasonable. But experience has taught me to "trust but verify", especially with towers handling a wide range of types on and around the same field. Always had excellent ATC service while training at KTEB (back when they were still handling newbies in 150s as well as bizjets, the poor bastards), but I can't say that of every tower I've dealt with. Controllers are probably more efficient, on average, than most pilots, but they are not all perfect all the time.Why should I be bothered by or refuse ATC vectors.. headings and altitudes for traffic avoidance, especially in this area
redtail
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Probably easier for them, too, and less chance of weird misunderstandings like the ones that led to the airplane/heli midair in that area not long ago. But don't assume you'll get cleared, LOL. Never tried it except to head east past JFK, and always wound up flying low over the beach (not that this is a bad thing).
Not a bad idea, although most of my flying prior to my check ride was out of KTEB or N07, and I was encouraged to stay low (but be smart about it). I've even "threaded the needle" below the B and between the KTEB and KCDW Ds a few times, just for the hell of it... not a big deal if you know the landmarks.
But I often wonder which is more of a headache for controllers- getting a FF request for slow traffic in that area, or sweating about all those 1200 squawks crawling around underneath everything. Maybe they just filter them out.
It's the OP's example that got me going... but my complaint would be less "you can't vector me!" than "why are you moving me into the Bravo without a clearance?!" The vast majority of requests, instructions, or whatever you want to call them are reasonable. But experience has taught me to "trust but verify", especially with towers handling a wide range of types on and around the same field. Always had excellent ATC service while training at KTEB (back when they were still handling newbies in 150s as well as bizjets, the poor bastards), but I can't say that of every tower I've dealt with. Controllers are probably more efficient, on average, than most pilots, but they are not all perfect all the time.
Yes we have a similar background. I also learned to fly at KTEB back in '98 (Million Air Flight School). Threaded the needle many times, (while staying below the Bravo) flying over to KMMU & KCDW to practice landings. KTEB was always too busy for student touch & go's! Remember the X Y buildings in Livingston, the twin lakes near Chatham and the "bend in the river" in Paterson? I miss those days
.That was probably my greatest concern as a young student in that area.....NOT effing up and busting NY Bravo airspace
. Sure kept me on my toes, and I'm glad that I learned in such an area
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redtail
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Yep, me too!
redtail
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A couple of years ago when I got back into flying, I was flying the Hudson/East river scenic flight with my son. I was at 1200' in the SFRA northbound just prior to Governor's Island. Newark tower was busy so it took awhile for me to get a word in.
Finally, I was able to get my request in for the East River Northbound (Bravo). By this time, I was already over Governor's which is pretty late for the request, so the controller had me circle the island while climbing. "Cessna XXX circle Governor's, make a right 360, climb and maintain one thousand, five hundred".
I read back the clearance and followed the instructions, making my climbing right turn into the Bravo. He then cleared me to proceed East River northbound, contact LaGuadia tower. Several minutes later, it dawned on me that he never said "Cleared into the Bravo"
.
After I got home, I reviewed my video and to my horror, I was right. I didn't hear those magic words! Fortunately, nothing ever became of it but I learned a valuable lesson. Won't ever let that happen again!
Finally, I was able to get my request in for the East River Northbound (Bravo). By this time, I was already over Governor's which is pretty late for the request, so the controller had me circle the island while climbing. "Cessna XXX circle Governor's, make a right 360, climb and maintain one thousand, five hundred".
I read back the clearance and followed the instructions, making my climbing right turn into the Bravo. He then cleared me to proceed East River northbound, contact LaGuadia tower. Several minutes later, it dawned on me that he never said "Cleared into the Bravo"
.After I got home, I reviewed my video and to my horror, I was right. I didn't hear those magic words! Fortunately, nothing ever became of it but I learned a valuable lesson. Won't ever let that happen again!
alfadog
Final Approach
But you have clearance. Ain't anything implied about it.
roncachamp
Final Approach
You don't have an ATC clearance of any kind from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that Class B airspace area.
alfadog
Final Approach
Correct me if I am wrong but if you have an IFR clearance and that route of clearance includes entry into or passage through Class Bravo then you will not receive additional clearance into the Bravo? If that is the case then my point is made.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Correct.
If your point is the regulation is not followed as written, then you are again correct.
alfadog
Final Approach
My point might be that perhaps someone in the FAA thinks they are.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Write when you're sure.
alfadog
Final Approach
As someone that recently retired from a career's worth of reading and interpreting the Federal regulations, I do know that the way one person reads them is not necessarily how they are interpreted by the folks that actually make the rules. Does that make the folks that make the rules right or wrong? I usually took the "might makes right" viewpoint, i.e. if I violated a regulation based on a personal interpretation that I knew was at odds with the regulators' interpretation, I knew I would usually be the one paying the fine.
In other words, I can certainly make a case that your IFR clearance does come from someone that has the authority to clear you into the Bravo.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Making that case requires demonstrating that the "from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area" portion has no meaning.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Every time I've asked for a clearance through a Bravo I've either been denied outright or been given vectors that made wish I had been.
MAKG1
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Almost every time I've asked for clearance through a Class B, I've been given half the airspace to play in. Twice, I was denied.
Every Class B is different.
alfadog
Final Approach
Miami is more like the previous post. Don't ask. Getting FF up and down the coast at 500 - 1000 feet is another story. Do ask and have fun
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Miami is more like the previous post. Don't ask. Getting FF up and down the coast at 500 - 1000 feet is another story. Do ask and have fun
Yeah, the one time I launched out of Ft. Lauderdale they insisted I fly 500 feet above the beach. Twist my arm.
Bill Watson
En-Route
That applies to Class Cs too.
I fly in and around RDU's and GSO's a good bit.
Busy RDU always takes the initial call up, if transitioning thru they will keep you as close to direct as possible, flying directly over the airport is a frequent vector, they never have you skirt the airspace to transition thru.
Sleepy GSO never seems to give you a FF/VFR transition that touches their airspace and maddenly will sometimes not acknowledge your initial non-FF callup except to say "remain clear".
After going in there this weekend I'm thinking they may do a lot of controller training. The controllers were "off key"... I mean no one gives someone a "N1044F, fly heading 270 at or below 3,000', altimeter 30.07, squawk 5656, confirm you have Delta" Crikey!! I flew 270 past the airport, 5 miles out and heading away from runway 5R, then I get in a different, smiling voice "fly direct to the numbers, cleared to land". Yep, training... but can't complain. It's a good place to do it I guess.
Class B or C - busy facilities are the best. If a Miami or NY won't clear you for what you want to do, try asking for something else. They work hard to make it all work.
alfadog
Final Approach
redtail
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That's mandatory out here. JFK class B. I love it too. It's the only low level flying I've done and it's a blast!