Flaps during approach

WannFly

WannFly

Final Approach
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whats the generic consensus on when to deploy Flaps on approach? from what I have seen and read most people recommends not more that first notch until you have the runway in sight. my usual practice (still in training) is to 2000 RPM in a Cherokee after FAF, that gets me to about 90 kts and 500 FPM until 200 AGL and then full flaps for landing. more often than I find myself too fast on the approach and float a bit trying get the energy dissipate but I am guessing that's just my sloppy power management.

the idea behind not to go more than first notch is a safeguard when going missed in IMC. what does POA think?
 
I was taught in IR (PA28) similarly.. 3 miles from FAF slow to 90 knots and go one notch.. don't use more flaps until you have runway in sight

I forget what RPM was the target but it was somewhere around 2,000

it is good to be able to adapt though, depending on what other traffic you have on approach
 
Mooney: trim/throttle for 90kts level flight, at the FAF, gear down and half flaps, and it should go down the pipe at 90kts with minimal adjustment.
 
If they give me a straight in 5 mile final in the 150/172 (slow), I keep the coal burning till I'm close then drop em as desired.
 
The use of any flaps on an instrument approach is pretty much a technique issue which varies from pilot to pilot and model to model. Same with when. I only use flaps in two (and 1/2) of the models I fly. In one it is before the FAF, in one it is at the FAF, and inthe 1/2 it is after the FAF.

If there is any consensus, it is to avoid using any more than "approach flaps" if for no reason other than to make a missed approach less work.
 
Only partial flaps until landing assured. Hence the term "Approach Flaps". Honestly at the end of the day, its a Cherokee. It should land fine at any flap setting.
 
WannFly said:
whats the generic consensus on when to deploy Flaps on approach? from what I have seen and read most people recommends not more that first notch until you have the runway in sight. my usual practice (still in training) is to 2000 RPM in a Cherokee after FAF, that gets me to about 90 kts and 500 FPM until 200 AGL and then full flaps for landing. more often than I find myself too fast on the approach and float a bit trying get the energy dissipate but I am guessing that's just my sloppy power management.

the idea behind not to go more than first notch is a safeguard when going missed in IMC. what does POA think?
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No, that's sloppy speed management. If I could go back and teach my new student pilot self one thing its that there are 3 important elements to good approaches and landings: airspeed control, airspeed control, and airspeed control.

The other thing that stood out, is that I wouldn't suggest making big configuration changes at 200 feet AGL. But that's just me.
 
mryan75 said:
The other thing that stood out, is that I wouldn't suggest making big configuration changes at 200 feet AGL. But that's just me.
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that's what I was taught in my primary, 200 AGL is pretty low for making a big flap change. now in instrument training CFI keeps hammering my head with - all approach is missed approach unless proven otherwise and hence not full flaps before you can see the runway / mins. while I can go around just fine and make adjustments while climbing out, I am not entirely sure how that experience feels like in actual IMC
 
PA 28, 3 miles prior to FAF, flaps 25 degrees, airspeed 80 Kias, but honestly in a PA 28, 15 degrees flaps and 90 works fine as does no flaps and 90.
 
WannFly said:
that's what I was taught in my primary, 200 AGL is pretty low for making a big flap change. now in instrument training CFI keeps hammering my head with - all approach is missed approach unless proven otherwise and hence not full flaps before you can see the runway / mins. while I can go around just fine and make adjustments while climbing out, I am not entirely sure how that experience feels like in actual IMC
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Find out what it feels like. Tell him you want to practice it. Actual IMC may be hard to arrange but have your hood/foggles all set to go without fumbling. What if you saw the runway, put in your flaps and then the Tower sends you around. What if someone or something gets onto the runway when your coming over the fence, and other what ifs
 
I generally agree with don't use more flap than you will use on the missed approach. There are of course exceptions, but it would have to be a pretty short runway or steep descent to the runway to need more in a Cherokee. I pretty much leave it up to my students to decide how much if any flap they want to use on instrument approaches.
Some Factors to consider.
Probably best to be configured as close to your missed approach configuration as is reasonable.
Using some flaps helps ingrain the landing checks prior to landing. Carb heat should do that also.
Any aircraft limitations that might affect the decision to use flaps, some planes have a pretty low flap speed and ATC likes to use the phase "maintain maximum forward speed" rather frequently.
How does adding flaps (changing configuration) affect the airplane if you happen to be in icing conditions.

But many of my students decide to just keep things simple and pretty much don't use flaps in Cherokees and C-172's. Bigger planes tend to seem to like a bit of flap a bit more than these.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
The Navion lands fine without flaps, so I don't tend to put them out unless I break out pretty high. You aren't shooting ILS to minimums on runways shorter than 5000' typically.
 
WannFly said:
that's what I was taught in my primary, 200 AGL is pretty low for making a big flap change. now in instrument training CFI keeps hammering my head with - all approach is missed approach unless proven otherwise and hence not full flaps before you can see the runway / mins. while I can go around just fine and make adjustments while climbing out, I am not entirely sure how that experience feels like in actual IMC
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As has already been said, try it.

You've probably done a bunch of missed approaches, but from the little I've seen, the missed approach is a very busy time. It's a bit easier in these days of GPS with the published missed programmed in, so you don't have to do as much twisting to go along with the turning, but going to full power, climbing, cleaning up flaps (and gear if applicable) and being aware of the need to pay attention to altitude and direction, is a more intensive workload than even setting up and flying an approach. Change that to the alternate non-published missed approach instructions common in many terminal areas and that workload increases.

You may discover that adding landing flaps at 200 AGL, or even landing without them altogether, is child's play in comparison.
 
I like to be configured before the FAF unless there is a really long leg. No flaps if planning circle to land
 
When I got my rating I was taught 100 kts to minimums but that was with a 10,000' runway that allowed for a lot floating in a 152. And with a lot of C-17, MD 80, 737, and 767 traffic using that airport (KLGB) many a time I would hear "3-niner-5 I need your best forward" if I started getting below 100.

Now, when I hear the words "vectors for the approach" and I am seeing what appears to be a downwind or a X-wind leg for me to the final on the GPS/Foreflight, I'll pull the power to slow it to 90 (C172 &/or PA28) and drop in one notch of flaps and once the glide-slope is intersected it is just a mater of pulling out a few hundred more RPM to ride the rail down... soooo much easier...
 
Also flying a cherokee 180....I rarely use full flaps on landing. If doing the pattern, 1st setting of flaps mid-field downwind, power to 1800 rpm, trim for airspeed. 2nd setting of flaps on base, trim for airspeed and leave it there. 90 kts is too fast for me. I'll use the 6000 ft of the 8000 ft runway at 90 kts on touchdown. My plan is 80 kts on base, then 60-70 kts at touchdown. Pitch for airspeed. Pitch for airspeed. Pitch for airspeed.

An IFR landing? I still won't do 90 kts. And again, rarely full flaps. Just too much trouble and too busy if I have to go around to go from 3rd flap setting to 2nd flap setting (plus I've been known to bang a finger or two with the flap handle).
 
Cirrus, 2 miles before, or glideslope alive, 50% flaps, slow to 100 knots by FAF. Pull power at FAF or glideslope intercept, to approach power setting, fly at 100 knots. If you breakout above 500 ft agl, you can go full flaps and land. If you break out below 500 ft agl, land with 50% flaps. Works pretty well in most cases.
 
No flap’s, stay n Cat. B

All about power settings in a routine.
 
My procedure (similar to that of several others here): slow to 100 kts 1-2 nm before the IAF, add one notch of flaps. Drop gear at glideslope intercept, slow to 90 kts, maintain 90 kts down the glideslope. No more flaps until runway in sight and assured.

I agree with F'Ron that adding the rest of the flaps at 200 AGL should not be a problem because you won't be flying an ILS to 200 AGL (most likely) on less than a 5000 ft runway. The rare exception can be dealt with... exceptionally. You do have to be proficient in your plane however.

FWIW.
 
WannFly said:
that's what I was taught in my primary, 200 AGL is pretty low for making a big flap change. now in instrument training CFI keeps hammering my head with - all approach is missed approach unless proven otherwise and hence not full flaps before you can see the runway / mins. while I can go around just fine and make adjustments while climbing out, I am not entirely sure how that experience feels like in actual IMC
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Personally I see no reason for full flaps in a Cherokee unless its a really short runway, in which case you likely won't be flying an ILS to 200 feet anyway. I do practice ILS approaches to minimums all the time and always with two notches. I'd be curious what others think, and also why your instructor thinks it's necessary/prudent to go 3 notches that low.
 
mryan75 said:
Personally I see no reason for full flaps in a Cherokee unless its a really short runway, in which case you likely won't be flying an ILS to 200 feet anyway. I do practice ILS approaches to minimums all the time and always with two notches. I'd be curious what others think, and also why your instructor thinks it's necessary/prudent to go 3 notches that low.
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I don't see a problem with doing it, precisely because on runways with an ILS to 200 feet, the runway is nearly always going to be long enough to do it safely anyway. Personally I always land with full flaps unless wind conditions make less than full flaps safer, and I see no reason to land differently after an instrument approach.

YMMV, as always.
 
This is dependent on the airplane. In my Archer I try to be at 90 knots at the FAF. that is roughly 1500 rpm, no flaps on 3 degree glide path. Even if I break out at ILS minima (200-1/2) I can get that thing stopped in 3000' of runway from there (using flaps at that point). In the Bonanza's I fly its approach flaps, MP bottom of the green arc will hold GP at around 90 knots (gear is put down upon intercepting the glide slope or before if needed).
 
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What is the purpose of flaps? To increase rate of decent without increasing airspeed. A side effect is, the plane can fly slower with flaps.

Do you need one of these? If so, add flaps. If not, don't.
 
I was taught the 3-2-1 rule for gear/flaps/configuration changes. In a complex plane (I did my instrument in an Arrow, for various reasons), drop gear 3 miles to the FAF on an actual or simulated IMC approach, trim to white arc and first flaps setting (first notch in a Cherokee) 2 miles to FAF, trim for 90 knots or slower ground speed. Then, no configuration changes until you are 1 mile out from the runway, or visual. It makes for a stabilized approach every time, and is especially useful on approaches of greater than 3 degrees/478 fpm.
 
PaulS said:
Cirrus, 2 miles before, or glideslope alive, 50% flaps, slow to 100 knots by FAF. Pull power at FAF or glideslope intercept, to approach power setting, fly at 100 knots. If you breakout above 500 ft agl, you can go full flaps and land. If you break out below 500 ft agl, land with 50% flaps. Works pretty well in most cases.
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Its almost like they have a specific training to teach you all this....

I used to be really ****ed i had to pay for all those training videos, but in all honesty, they are well done and leave little to talk about when it comes to things like, "should i land full flaps after the runway environment is in sight and im just above da with 200' mins?"
 
azure said:
I don't see a problem with doing it, precisely because on runways with an ILS to 200 feet, the runway is nearly always going to be long enough to do it safely anyway. Personally I always land with full flaps unless wind conditions make less than full flaps safer, and I see no reason to land differently after an instrument approach.

YMMV, as always.
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Interesting. Do you fly a PA-28?
 
Isn't this really aircraft-dependent? In an AA-5, it's typically no-flaps and 90 kt on an approach. Slow and deploy full flaps (if desired and/or advisable) when field in sight. I wouldn't deploy flaps if wing or tailplane icing was suspected. For the AA-1x and AA-5x series, flaps are not that effective or necessary anyway. A little drag maybe, not much lift. Maybe 2 kt difference in stall speed.
 
chemgeek said:
Isn't this really aircraft-dependent?
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It's both aircraft and pilot-dependent.

One pilot might use approach flaps in a 172. Another pilot might not.
OTOH, the pilot who doesn't use approach flaps in a 172 might use them in a Cirrus.
 
chemgeek said:
Isn't this really aircraft-dependent? In an AA-5, it's typically no-flaps and 90 kt on an approach. Slow and deploy full flaps (if desired and/or advisable) when field in sight. I wouldn't deploy flaps if wing or tailplane icing was suspected. For the AA-1x and AA-5x series, flaps are not that effective or necessary anyway. A little drag maybe, not much lift. Maybe 2 kt difference in stall speed.
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I fly a Tiger, not a Traveller, but the difference between full flaps and clean is 6 knots (59 to 53). Also, the first third of flaps always increases lift so much that I need to compensate with power, pitch or both. I always go 1/3 flaps on the approach to comfortably get to 90 kt ground speed and just leave it there till I am visual. I make 90% of my landings with full flaps. If I have a strong XW, I'll usually go to 2/3.
 
Clip4 said:
PA 28, 3 miles prior to FAF, flaps 25 degrees, airspeed 80 Kias, but honestly in a PA 28, 15 degrees flaps and 90 works fine as does no flaps and 90.
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15 degrees is a tall order in a Cherokee. the flap settings are 10, 25, and 40 degrees.

All that aside, I use 17" and 1-notch (or 10°) to maintain about 90 kts during the approach. If on an ILS or LPV, I drop the gear at intercept and get a nice 500 fpm descent right down the glideslope. If on a NP approach, at the FAF I drop the gear and throttle back to either 13" or 15" (I need to check my notes) to get a comfortable 700 fpm descent. At MDA, I just bring it up to 21" and it'll fly level. No trimming required at any point. I spent a couple of hours about 15 years ago figuring out these numbers. It beats the hell out of chop and drop for the 1000 fpm descent to MDA, and then firewalling it to level off, and then trying to get it trimmed up, etc. Figure out your numbers and fly the numbers!!
 
N1120A said:
I fly a Tiger, not a Traveller, but the difference between full flaps and clean is 6 knots (59 to 53). Also, the first third of flaps always increases lift so much that I need to compensate with power, pitch or both. I always go 1/3 flaps on the approach to comfortably get to 90 kt ground speed and just leave it there till I am visual. I make 90% of my landings with full flaps. If I have a strong XW, I'll usually go to 2/3.
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It's only 4 mph in the Traveler. (58 full flaps vs. 62 clean). Not like a C-172 with 40 degrees of barn doors. I use full-flap landings in all conditions. Lowering flaps in an AA-5X will result in an initial zoom then a nose-down pitch change. I usually push the wheel a bit until the plane slows while I'm dialing in a little nose-up trim, and "Bob's your Uncle." My AA-1A flew almost the same way.

I think the key is to have a routine for flying approaches and to follow it always. I most would agree that dialing in full flaps too early makes for an awkward missed approach. A Tiger or Traveler will slow down pretty quickly once the runway is in sight, plus most places you would fly to really low minimums will have ample runway to get down safely.
 
you should train to fly approaches at all speeds. training at 90kts outside the final is great, but the first time you try that at a busy airport in the soup its going to be fun. if the weather is say 800 ovr you should have no problem flying the approach at cruise and configuring to land after visual. (in a fixed gear, i do not advocate flying the approach gear up until visual) there is no one size fits all for approach speeds. you need to be able to safely fly the approach at all speeds an configurations.
 
N1120A said:
I was taught the 3-2-1 rule for gear/flaps/configuration changes. In a complex plane (I did my instrument in an Arrow, for various reasons), drop gear 3 miles to the FAF on an actual or simulated IMC approach, trim to white arc and first flaps setting (first notch in a Cherokee) 2 miles to FAF, trim for 90 knots or slower ground speed. Then, no configuration changes until you are 1 mile out from the runway, or visual. It makes for a stabilized approach every time, and is especially useful on approaches of greater than 3 degrees/478 fpm.
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Hopefully you aren't trimming for ground speed ...
 
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