First time in the clouds and I gave up

SixPapaCharlie said:
I could probably pass my IR checkride at this point but never spent any time in the clouds.
We went out and did some XC stuff under the foggles and broke through a thin layer multiple times departing and arriving.

Danced around Texas in the Cirrus, nailing approaches, filed everywhere and nailed everything.
Then a very thick layer started to build up back at home an so off with the foggles, let's do this for real.

30 seconds in, I said "Your airplane I am no longer interested in this rating".

She flew us home.

Having never been in the clouds for any length of time, I hadn't expected a couple of things.
1. VFR at altitude, the ground goes by pretty slow. Once you are in the clouds, you are well aware that you are moving 200 MPH. I felt like I was moving a million miles an hour and couldn't focus on the instruments because the shadows, clouds, and rain made it feel like we were moving 10X faster

2. Foggles are not IMC. Even with Foggles, you get little bits of info from your peripheral vision. It doesn't take a half second of information coming from those foggle gaps to orient you. In the clouds, that doesn't happen. I have never been one to cheat but under the foggles, there are snippets of ground that sneak in and your brain takes advantage of that.

C. I totally get how people get disoriented and die VFR into IMC. When I handed her the plane, we were in a climbing right bank and I have never felt more straight and level in my life.

I was never scared but I was task saturated by ATC and the epiphany that THIS is how people die.
I have wondered since I passed my PPL checkride how could anyone get disoriented in IMC the instruments are right there. I totally get it now.

This was really eye opening. I cant imagine getting your IR and never flying in actual. If I were alone and flew into this I would have either climbed up and gone somewhere else or declared.

They were barking vectors at me and I was hand flying and the instruments were "lying to me".
I may not continue. After 7 years of flying, I am not overly motivated to be in a situation that I have been able to avoid with a simple go / no go decision for the last 800 hours.




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Who needs an IFR rating? Certainly not you, with 800 hours, a Cirrus, and 14,000+ postings.

Not you, who took off from your field only to have it go IFR on the way back.

I remember getting my rating in my 172 - easy peazy. I didn't need my IFR rating with June Gloom at Hawthorne next to LAX with all that big iron around. I didn't need it with Catalina going IFR often since the airport is 1200 or so feet above the rest of Los Angeles airplanes. Or when I upgraded to a Turbo Mooney going geezus h christ a lot faster and moving to the midwest with IFR conditions virtually constantly, or getting caught inadvertently in thunderstorms, freezing rain, snow or else.

Wait, I did.

That "blush response" you got just made it real. Your performance in training so far reassures you that you can do it. Why you fritzed? Immaterial. Seriously, give yourself the confidence and get the rating.

I've experienced dead alternators, dead engines, poorly re-installed engines, cracked cases in motors, dead vacuum pumps, a gear up, on and on. Those happen to some of us the more hours we accumulate. How do we deal with it? redundancy. Short of two engines, I usually fly with an Ipad, a healthy battery Garmin 696, a GDL39, a spare radio, and on the panel I have electric AI's, dual GPS's, MFD, etc.

An instrument scan will save you from that mechanic that only hand-tightened those spark plugs, that valve that's about to go, that vacuum pump that just failed as you were on approach, that sign that you have low voltage because your alternator went, and on and on and on.

Stick with it...you just need more time. :)
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I could probably pass my IR checkride at this point but never spent any time in the clouds.
We went out and did some XC stuff under the foggles and broke through a thin layer multiple times departing and arriving.

Having never been in the clouds for any length of time, I hadn't expected a couple of things.
1. VFR at altitude, the ground goes by pretty slow. Once you are in the clouds, you are well aware that you are moving 200 MPH. I felt like I was moving a million miles an hour and couldn't focus on the instruments because the shadows, clouds, and rain made it feel like we were moving 10X faster

I was never scared but I was task saturated by ATC and the epiphany that THIS is how people die.
I have wondered since I passed my PPL checkride how could anyone get disoriented in IMC the instruments are right there. I totally get it now.
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If you were task saturated that quickly you may not be as ready for the IR checkride as you think.

Did you not grow up playing video games. Ignore the windows until it's time to see if you see a runway, or not, near the bottom of your approach. Otherwise, focus on the "video game" (PFD / six-pack / panel). Nothing but the video game and ATC. Nothing else.

Are you doing it in the Cirrus or your Grumman (re: 200 mph)? Flying the Cirrus manually in the clouds is tougher due to how twitchy the trim control is. Much easier to "get" IFR flying in a slower and easy to manually trim plane.

Pull the power back and don't look out the windows until you have to. Go do it some more with your CFII. It does take some getting use to. Early in my IFR flying my first climb of the day in IMC I always felt like the plane was turning, I forget which way, but always the same way. I had to ignore that and focus on the instruments. Going straight felt like a turn. Never had that with foggles. Just weird that it was only the first climb of the day. I don't get that any more.

donjohnston said:
I absolutely HATED doing an IFR training in busy, controlled airspace. Doing multiple approaches, always setting up an approach, going missed, having to constantly setup for the next one while flying an ever changing vector with an every changing altitude with drill sergeant like controllers. There were a couple times I thought about giving up but my CFI told me that the real world is not even close to this difficult. And he was right.

Now when it gets busy, I turn on the A/P so I can push buttons, turn knobs and respond to controllers.

As for the difference between actual and foggles, we scheduled a couple training sessions during actual. It was very eye opening. Do that a couple of times and bet you get better.
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Foggles are good, but doing it in real IMC is totally different. No visual clues from your peripheral vision. An AP makes IFR flying much easier. :D That's especially true in busy airspace and getting vectored around by ATC.

I prefer to go "practice" my approaches in IMC. :cool: I can tell that getting to the bottom of an LPV approach and not seeing the runway will definitely get your attention. o_O :eek: Fortunately I wasn't planning on landing there. :)

I learned from a Class D airport under the Atlanta Class B airspace, but I also got my PPL there too. My CFII had a course he called "the grinder". :eek: It went from RYY to PDK to FTY and back to RYY. Direct distance for that triangle is a mere 43.8 nm, approaches make it a bit more. Even in a 172 it was fast and action-packed-action. At the south end of PDK the ATL Class B space comes down low and PDK is very busy at times; busier than most Class C airports I've flown into. Doing that course one is constantly changing channels and pushing buttons. It's intense. But once you get through that you realize that you can easily handle traveling IFR.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I am going up again today and we are going to get in the clouds and not worry about approaches / arrivals, but just practice flying a heading, doing some turns, etc. the very basic things you do on day 1 under the hood.
He said we can go further away from Dallas where it is quieter and get acclimated to flying the plane in the clouds with reduced stress from not being under the bravo.
I guess there are ways to get on a flight plan with some wiggle room for turns, climbs, etc. I am not sure how that works. I am going to go up a few more times to assess my aviation goals.
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Either your CFII is pretty great, or the two of you have enough rapport to navigate the training bumps like these together. Both are pretty rare in my experience. I hope he discovers a path that works for you, even if it means abandoning what you've already done if that's the right thing.

Good luck. :)
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I am going up again today and we are going to get in the clouds and not worry about approaches / arrivals, but just practice flying a heading, doing some turns, etc. the very basic things you do on day 1 under the hood.
He said we can go further away from Dallas where it is quieter and get acclimated to flying the plane in the clouds with reduced stress from not being under the bravo.
I guess there are ways to get on a flight plan with some wiggle room for turns, climbs, etc. I am not sure how that works. I am going to go up a few more times to assess my aviation goals.
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Good to hear. Stick with it. Maybe in the end you just don't want to do it, but at least keep working at it for a bit.

We travel this way as much as possible. Our plans change for t-storms and ice. Clouds are just another element in the forecast. It's quite rare that they impact our flights as a ceiling below minimums doesn't happen that often. Convective clouds on the other hand get in our way regularly and we work our way around them.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
30 seconds in, I said "Your airplane I am no longer interested in this rating". She flew us home.

I was never scared but I was task saturated by ATC and the epiphany that THIS is how people die.
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GMascelli said:
..."training for IFR", is not fun. It's work,
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I jumped into IR training right after PPL ... I should not have back at just 80 hours (am at 900 now). Training does make you more accurate flying. I fly to get AWAY from work, and I was miserable knocking out the hood time (felt TOO much like work and MS simulator at home was nearly identical). I'll knock it out eventually, but would probably only use it to penetrate a marine layer, or long XC (although I'm FF all the time anyway). I suspended training as the rental fleet maintenance got terrible right as I completed my PPL ... had some real exciting flights then stopped and took a year to find the Tiger I flew for 10 years (a LOT of XC) ... in all that time (900 hours) I got delayed 45 minutes for fog at Fullerton and 3 hours once in San Antonio. I'd have to go somewhere else to get actual ...
 
wayne said:
I prefer to go "practice" my approaches in IMC. :cool: I can tell that getting to the bottom of an LPV approach and not seeing the runway will definitely get your attention. o_O :eek: Fortunately I wasn't planning on landing there. :)
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The other thing that will get your attention real fast is having the marine layer roll in.... or having a 1 degree temp/dewpoint spread as the sun goes down and it starts getting cooler.

I recall going into one airport in such a situation, clearly seeing the runway lights & complete airport layout on final approach and canceling IFR.... and ending up in the soup somewherearound 50 feet above the runway. I broke out between 20 and 30 feet above the runway (faster than I could even put in power for a missed) and landed - by the time I taxied to the ramp there was less than 50 feet of horizontal visibility. Got my attention. Lesson learned.

Fly IFR and you will become a big student of the weather.
 
danhagan said:
I jumped into IR training right after PPL ... I should not have back at just 80 hours (am at 900 now). Training does make you more accurate flying. I fly to get AWAY from work, and I was miserable knocking out the hood time (felt TOO much like work and MS simulator at home was nearly identical). I'll knock it out eventually, but would probably only use it to penetrate a marine layer, or long XC (although I'm FF all the time anyway). I suspended training as the rental fleet maintenance got terrible right as I completed my PPL ... had some real exciting flights then stopped and took a year to find the Tiger I flew for 10 years (a LOT of XC) ... in all that time (900 hours) I got delayed 45 minutes for fog at Fullerton and 3 hours once in San Antonio. I'd have to go somewhere else to get actual ...
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I was planning on waiting a year after my PPL to start my IFR training. A few canceled day trips for some very benign weather and I started at just over 62 hours. I wanted to be able to travel and "not traveling" when the family planned for it with decent looking weather wasn't helping.

I now have almost 100 hours of IMC time in my logbook. We've made lots of flights that were simply not happening VFR, or were scud running at best. The family is just used to breaking out and seeing a runway in front of us now. Often that's around 1,000' AGL, but sometimes that's under 500' AGL.
 
I have been on the CFII side of Bryan's experience a number of times.

Two memorable ones were 1, at night and we hit snow, the landing light made the windshield look like we had just transitioned to Hyperspace. My students reaction was he put the foggles back on, he didn't want to see it.. This student was otherwise just about ready for his checkride. This student went on to get his CFI and to fly 207's in Alaska.

The other one when we hit the rain and the clouds all at once between hearing and seeing the rain but nothing else the student just completely shut down. To be fair this student only had about 20 hours total time. I had hoped he could reasonably keep us level and on altitude after a few minutes, I was wrong, he wouldn't even try.

Brian
CFIIIG/ASEL
 
David Megginson said:
I can almost hear the loud "Click!" in my brain every time I fly in or out of IMC. When I'm entering IMC, I think I even shift my position a bit, sit up straight, and square up my shoulders, so that my body is perfectly lined up with the panel I'm going to be focussing on. It's a bit like watching baseball infielders drop to the "set" position as soon as the pitcher winds up. :)
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If I know I’m going into IMC in the 182, I lower my seat. That enormous panel blocks everything when you’re low.

Don’t always remember to do it, but if I know it’s an IMC flight beforehand, I’ll crank it down.
 
denverpilot said:
LOL LOL LOL. Suicide switch. Love that. So true. Checkride... over. Haha.
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I'm wondering if I should get a physical switch for my GTN 650, instead of relying on the virtual "CDI" button on the Default Nav screen.

Pro: It's a real pain switching back from VLOC to GPS after an ILS missed approach, especially if I'm not already on the Default Nav screen.

Con: The only time that happens is during instrument proficiency checks or IFR practice, not in real life.
 
Lots of good comments here.
I wouldn't give up yet, either.
This was your first experience.
Try it 10 times, and see if you feel differently.

I personally don't enjoy a 3-hour trip in solid IFR the whole way.
But I'm really glad I got the rating, really glad I can pop through layers that would otherwise keep me on the ground, and really glad I can get where I'm going even if I have to concentrate really hard for an hour while in the soup.
 
My very first actual IMC was pre-solo; CFI wanted to get on top and over to a nearby field for TnGs and wanted me to fly it.

Entered the clouds about pattern altitude and had a climbing turn on course to cruise altitude. Popped out on top and handed the plane over. I was mentally spent.

It was a good learning event, but not taught very well. Went on to do most of my PPL flight by reference to instrument hours in actual IMC with very little foggles/simulated IMC time.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Nonetheless, I would think to finish the rating as the training improves the precision of one’s flying otherwise and can be a good thing to have in an emergency. It is also really useful at night.
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I don't disagree, but if one doesn't stay IFR current (i.e., proficient) or fly in the system on a regular basis, those "emergency" IFR skills will be of limited usefulness. IFR skills are kind of a use it or lose it proposition.

Personally, I think night XC is best treated as an IFR operation. I haven't done night XC VFR since getting the IFR rating 30 years ago.
 
Don't give up so easily. The instrument rating isn't considered the most difficult one to get for nothing (not that I have any experience with anything other than PP-ASEL and IA). There is far more than simply flying the airplane involved. Keep at it. I actually found that flying in actual was easier than foggles. YMMV. Now, I will admit that I'm not instrument current and probably won't get current again, but getting the rating was absolutely the right thing to do at the time. And I only recall one flight where I really needed it, but that one I really needed it (for a few 10ths of an hour). Would I survive an inadvertent trip into IMC today? Probably. Revert to my scan (even more than I do anyway) and believe the instruments. That will allow me to get out of the IMC and back to VMC. Would I survive without the IA? Not as likely. Give it a few more tries. You'll get used to it and enjoy the challenge.
 
A lot of good posts here.

Here is my 2 cents. My experience is foggles are good for training, but there is no substitute for being in the clouds. Foggles absolutely prepare you for being in the clouds though, but you have to trust and rely on your instruments and your training.

I wasn't an ace like you in training, which I did in New England, through the winter. My instructor regularly took me out in 500 foot ceilings which on a few occasions got lower than that. I experienced low visibility, an actual missed approach and ice, several times in a FIKI plane. I had to deal with ATC, they were/are almost always great, but they call when you are doing something else, that's also pretty important. It's just part of it.

Clouds don't bother me, and they won't bother you eventually. I still get some pretty wild sensations though. The thing is, people say clouds, like it is just one thing you experience. It isn't, there is probably an infinite number of visual effects you can get in clouds. About a month ago I entered some clouds, the layer was a few thousand feet thick. The brightness and texture of the clouds varied through this layer. I was in it about an hour, hills below , ice above. It's tough to describe, just a weird feeling, like slight leans due to the visual effect outside as I was wizzing through those clouds at almost 200 mph. My solution was to stop looking outside and focus on instruments. It works well, trust it.

Cirrus has pretty good info on forming and evaluating where you are as far as proficiency and they have recommended minimums for proficiency. I'm a blue square pilot, + 500 on mins and 2 miles on visibility.

Just suck it up and fly, there is no rule that says you have to fly ifr by yourself when you get your ticket. I still do occasional flights with my instructor, it helps stop bad habits from forming.

In the end it's probably a good thing that you have run into some adversity in your training it will make you more confident in your ability to handle things when you breakthrough.
 
Today was better. Instructor got us a block and we spent 2 hours in it just flying. I think having a project (being on an approach in busy airspace) yesterday was a big part of it.
Today there was no task at hand, just get in, and start following headings, climb up to this, then turn to this heading, etc.
Yesterday we were really trying to land the plane and then IMC. Today was lets just go up and be in it.

I got micro-focused on the AI, HSI, and Altimeter. Helped that we were on center vs. Approach as it was much quieter.
I am going to go do this a few more times.

One major difference was slowing the plane down. We were more in the 120kt area today and I think that made a difference as well.
I don't recall even looking out the window once today. I am exhausted but feel better than yesterday.

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One small thing that tripped me up relates to approach clearances and might have contributed to your task saturation. It seemed to me that copying your filed flight plan clearance (CRAFT) gets so much emphasis that approach clearances get lost. If you're on vectors you'll get the "you are X miles from Y fix, cross at or above, cleared for the RNAV 36. For the longest time I was focused on why the heck is he telling me where I already know I am, that I lost the approach instructions and even forgot which approach/runway. Made my readbacks kind of uhm.. lousy. This was a perfect cue to forget the scan and task saturate. Part of my mental checklist now is to anticipate this call based on where I am on vectors and remember he's going to tell me fix, crossing altitude, approach. much easier now.
 
Foggels simulate flying with Foggles. Nothing more or less. The FAA really should require all IFR training under a hood.
 
Keep at it. You will get there.

One of the revelations I discovered after flying IFR for a while is how unbearably bright it is near the top of a cloud layer. So bright that I have to wear a cap and heavily tinted gradient sunglasses to prevent a massive headache. The first time this happened I was flying to KTTN for a meeting and was expecting light rain and clag for the whole trip. I wound up flying near the top of a layer that I couldn't get above, and I had left my sunglasses at home. Big mistake. The brightness was unbearable. I had my hat pulled down as far as I could get it and was squinting or closing one eye for miles. If I had had a passenger they would have thought I was having a seizure. o_O . It's usually more comfortable above the tops, in or below the bases, or between layers. Just don't forget the sunglasses, even in IMC. I won't ever do that again.

Have fun cloud hopping!
 
FWIW, my only actual during training was on my XC. 4 hrs of hand flying. Granted it was in a Warrior. I had one moment were I started to get into a spiral but got it righted pretty quickly. Now that I've got the rating I don't have much desire to fly in IMC. At least not without an autopilot or another instrument rated pilot.

Also, I used these instead of traditional foggles: http://blockalls.com/pilot-in-command/

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
After years of flying IFR and thousands of hours instructing, I was nearly overwhelmed while flying in IMC with the AFCS (autopilot/flight director) coupled.

The problem was the turbulence we were flying in was pushing the system to its limits and I had to uncouple and hand fly with just the instruments for a while to get my $417 together...

As far as "I'm not interested in this _______ any more," I've felt that way about every fifth or sixth rated student who tried to kill me in the clouds. :confused:

I still love flying and teaching instruments, though. Always will.
 
Slow down is great advice. much easier to stay ahead that way in an approach. I just finished my instrument in sept. I recognize I’m still a green instrument pilot, and going into imc I still get some anxiety for a few minutes until I settle into the instruments. Use that AP, even my simple single axis AP without gpss is a huge asset to me in imc.
On slowing down my wise CFII recently told me; “The faster you go, the faster you can make mistakes”
 
Way to get back in saddle. The leans are real. Our inner ears suck. One of my first lessons for IFR was in IMC. On climbout heading to a waypoint my instruction calmly leans over and mentions “check your attitude Don’t want to die in a death spiral.” I was in 60 deg bank to the right. No clue. Corrected and thought I was going to fall out of plane. Good to have instructor that wants to take you and I am C. My instructor was great at that. He called me up in the morning and say what are you doing let’s get out it’s gonna be crappy.

Taking lessons in those conditions will save your life someday. Better to learn this now than find out hard way later
 
“Let’s get out its going to be crappy”
I still have a hard time with this concept, hopefully I’ll get over it one day.
 
Barry said:
“Let’s get out its going to be crappy”
I still have a hard time with this concept, hopefully I’ll get over it one day.
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It's not that at all actually. It's "let's go out, good IFR day". Crappy is a below mins day.
 
IK04 said:
As far as "I'm not interested in this _______ any more," I've felt that way about every fifth or sixth rated student who tried to kill me in the clouds. :confused:
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You have more experience than me, but I have also had military rated pilots try to kill me in the clouds. One was a CW3 who got a bad case of vertigo, the other a Major (who I had never flown with). Mr. Fieldgrade locked up on the controls and actually went catatonic. Never spoke or moved once panic hit. Unfortunately in my wisdom I had picked a real weather day to give an instrument ride thinking that would be delightful. Soon after departure he tried to achieve a 45 degree nose up IMC. Did that twice before the lockup. So, I had to fly essentially solo left seat in a UH-1 (paltry instruments) in increasingly bad and unforecast weather (rain, now, leaking in through the windshield frame) and moderate turbulence. Got lined up after a bit and flew a localizer back into home station by memory and cross check with the controller, since I could not let go of the controls. I recall during that experience smelling my own sweat. The only time that's ever happened.
 
<quote>I got micro-focused on the AI, HSI, and Altimeter.</quote>

That is a big part of the trick. We talk a lot about keeping you scan going. But the reality is we focus on what is important with just occasional scans on what isn't as important. The FAA calls this primary vs Secondary instruments. Which instrument is primary depends entirely on what you are doing. Practice and experience will teach you which ones to focus on and which ones just to check once in a while.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
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Foggles are not the same as IMC! but not all foggles are created equal. I started off with the standard white foggles that are basically safety glasses with 2/3s of the lens shaded. Those would give me a headache after about an hour. I got a pair of these and they are way better in my opinion. Still not IMC but I think they are way more comfortable and do a better job of blocking out everything except the panel. https://www.amazon.com/BLOCKALLS-Vi...CCA9T49SXN5&psc=1&refRID=SF54RS3W6CCA9T49SXN5
 
brcase said:
Two memorable ones were 1, at night and we hit snow, the landing light made the windshield look like we had just transitioned to Hyperspace.
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That's what I thought as well, and we were still VFR at the time.
 
Foggles are not the same as IMC! but not all foggles are created equal.
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Foggles is a trademark for a particular view limiting device. They come in clear or yellow. They are more or less equal.

Other viewlimiting devices have various pros and cons.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Today was better. Instructor got us a block and we spent 2 hours in it just flying. I think having a project (being on an approach in busy airspace) yesterday was a big part of it.
Today there was no task at hand, just get in, and start following headings, climb up to this, then turn to this heading, etc.
Yesterday we were really trying to land the plane and then IMC. Today was lets just go up and be in it.

I got micro-focused on the AI, HSI, and Altimeter. Helped that we were on center vs. Approach as it was much quieter.
I am going to go do this a few more times.

One major difference was slowing the plane down. We were more in the 120kt area today and I think that made a difference as well.
I don't recall even looking out the window once today. I am exhausted but feel better than yesterday.

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A lot of people talk about putting foggles on. I found that in hard IMC, in a climb, being bounced around by whatever the hell is happening inside that cloud, fumbling to find foggles is not particularly easy/safe. When I get disoriented (and I do - especially when you "see" the clouds going past you - I always think I'm banking right when I'm level and overcorrect... anyway, I digress), what really helps me get "grounded" again is to lean in and look more closely at the instruments. Narrow your field of vision. Looks goofy and, yes, it's the same principle as foggles, but easier to accomplish.
 
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