First time in a tailwheel - Citabria lesson last night

jbrinker

jbrinker

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Jbrinker
Took this ol girl up last night with an instructor. First time I've been PIC at the controls of a tailwheel plane. It was a lot of fun, definitely different than flying the 172 or Cherokee 140 but the flying part really wasn't hard to get the hang of. Adverse yaw was much more pronounced, and definitely had to use the rudder a lot.

Probably the hardest thing was keeping track of where everything was since the controls are 100% completely different than everything else I've been in. Kinda fun to have such a simple plane though, no flaps, not even an ignition key just mag switches.

I'd read quite a bit about tailwheel transition, and was pretty prepared, but even with that the first taxi was interesting. Definitely have to stay on top of it at all times, flying or not. NOW I see where the "taxi at walking speed" mantra comes from. Any faster than that in this thing and you stand a good chance of it getting away.

We did a bunch of turns, climbs, descents, stalls, steep turns, etc. Then went over to a local grass strip to practice approaches. That was a blast, and I did well on a couple low approaches. Back to the airport and did one hard surface landing (I felt I got all confused on short final, but the instructor said he didn't really help me much and I did fine). One more on the grass with the instructor flying and me feeling the controls.

Lots of fun, can't wait to do some more. 1.1h TW in the book.
 

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Can't log it as PIC until after the endorsement, right?
 
Not as much fun as flying a 172 is it? :D
 
How can you act as PIC in a craft you don't have endorsement to fly?
 
Salty said:
Can't log it as PIC until after the endorsement, right?
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Actually, I can log PIC and Dual Received as long as I'm sole manipulator (which I was for all but the last landing). I just can't act as PIC until I have the endorsement.

§61.51 Pilot logbooks.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

Training time is covered under 14 CFR 61.51(h)

(h) Logging training time. (1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.

Edit: Looks like this has potential to be a pi$$ing match - not my intention! Just sharing some fun I had.

To clarify - I mis-spoke in my inital post - I WAS NOT ACTING PIC since I do not have the endoresement yet. However, I can log PIC, as this question has been asked and answered (both all over the internet, and by my chief instructor).

Can log = rated for category/type, Sole manipulator.
 
jaybee said:
Incorrect.
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jaybee said:
You can't.
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Actually I was correct. The endorsement is required to act as PIC.

Additional training required for operating tailwheel airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (i)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a tailwheel airplane unless that person has received and logged flight training from an authorized instructor in a tailwheel airplane and received an endorsement in the person's logbook from an authorized instructor who found the person proficient in the operation of a tailwheel airplane.
 
jbrinker said:
Actually, I can log PIC and Dual Received as long as I'm sole manipulator (which I was for all but the last landing). I just can't act as PIC until I have the endorsement.

§61.51 Pilot logbooks.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

Training time is covered under 14 CFR 61.51(h)

(h) Logging training time. (1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
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I understand that you can log as dual received, not PIC. But lord knows I'm probably wrong.
 
Ryanb said:
Actually I was correct. The endorsement is required to act as PIC.

Additional training required for operating tailwheel airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (i)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a tailwheel airplane unless that person has received and logged flight training from an authorized instructor in a tailwheel airplane and received an endorsement in the person's logbook from an authorized instructor who found the person proficient in the operation of a tailwheel airplane.
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ACT not LOG.
 
Anyway, glad you finally got to fly her!
 
Yeah! Sounds like a fun flight. Sorry for the derail. :)
 
Let's try and make this as simple as possible -

ACT <--- is a word.
LOG <--- is a word.

Two different words.

@Ryanb - can LOG PIC whenever you are sole manipulator AND rated category and class, see quoted reg in Jbrinker's post.

Not fighting, clarifying.
 
jaybee said:
Let's try and make this as simple as possible -

ACT <--- is a word.
LOG <--- is a word.

Two different words.

@Ryanb - can LOG PIC whenever you are sole manipulator AND rated category and class, see quoted reg in Jbrinker's post.

Not fighting, clarifying.
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Yes I know, I’m not intending to pick a fight either. Not meaning to argue either, it’s just one of those gray areas that is confusing. Darn FAA! :mad2:
 
I'm still not convinced. ;)
 
SkyDog58 said:
Then again, what plane is?
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Thats pretty funny. I hadn't flown a Cessna anything since the early 90's, and did all my primary training in a 160HP Cherokee. When I first flew the 172's at our club, my first comment was "it handles like a minivan". Not that the Cherokee is any sports car, but maybe its a mid-size sedan. I can see the appeal of a 172, just like the appeal of a minivan or SUV. Easy to fly, roomy, two doors, common and easy to find/work on/get parts for. But the Citabria, with it's lowly 115HP was actually more fun.
 
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Congrats @jbrinker. I got my endorsement in a Decathlon several years ago but had not flown another tailwheel until this week when I logged a couple hours and 12 landings in a J3 Cub. Lots of rust. I need to do it more often. Again, congrats.
 
Ryanb said:
Yes I know, I’m not intending to pick a fight either. Not meaning to argue either, it’s just one of those gray areas that is confusing. Darn FAA! :mad2:
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Exactly, thanks FAA.

just remember ACT and LOG two different things, once I got that concept through my brain it all became clear. :)
 
I posted in the "definitive PIC" thread and someone brought up a good point. As a tailwheel student, it is highly unlikely you are "sole manipulator of the controls".
 
Salty said:
I posted in the "definitive PIC" thread and someone brought up a good point. As a tailwheel student, it is highly unlikely you are "sole manipulator of the controls".
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Yep. The second the CFI says “I’ve got the controls”, you are not sole manipulator.
 
N3368K said:
I've logged over 1800 tailwheel hours with no endorsement. :cool:
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Curious - when did the endorsement come around? It's like me not having a complex endorsement - I think they split it off from the high performance endorsement in 1997 or '98....
 
Tailwheel endorsement requirement began April 15, 1991 IIRC. I started in 1978 in a J-3.

I've also logged complex and high performance before the requirement for endorsements which began August 4, 1997.

Yep, despite having no grandkids, I'm grandfathered with the FAA. :D
 
Ryanb said:
Right, but truthfully the two terms seem pretty synonymous. How can one log PIC time if they didn’t act as PIC?
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Not even close. Bone up on your FARs. They’re absolutely and completely separate. FAA does not use the two terms interchangeably, ever.
 
jbrinker said:
... no flaps, not even an ignition key just mag switches.

I'd read quite a bit about tailwheel transition, and was pretty prepared, but even with that the first taxi was interesting. Definitely have to stay on top of it at all times, flying or not. NOW I see where the "taxi at walking speed" mantra comes from. Any faster than that in this thing and you stand a good chance of it getting away.
Click to expand...

Those ignition switches, being where they are, often get forgotten on shutdown. I have found them left on numerous times, a stupidly dangerous situation. We had mandatory checklists in the airplanes and taught the students to use them, but we'd still see that a few couldn't be bothered to review them after shutting down.

One of ours got busted by fast taxiing and maneuvering. Taxiing a light taildragger downwind has to be done carefully. You have less airflow over the tail, maybe negative airflow that results in control reversal, and braking suddenly can lift the tail; the pilot pulls back on the stick, and once that happens the wind lifts the airplane right over onto its back. Or turning out of a too-fast downwind taxi combines the factors just mentioned with the centrifugal force of the turn and the wind against the large side area of the Citabria, and it drags the outside wing and goes onto its nose and maybe upside-down. The mantra should be "fly it until it's tied down."

Taildragger checkouts were the best instructing I did. Ab initio was dull in comparison. It was fun to watch the student, whose fresh PPL made him strut, find out that he wasn't the Top Gun he thought he was. Most taildragger pilots are reminded of that occasionally.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Those ignition switches, being where they are, often get forgotten on shutdown. I have found them left on numerous times, a stupidly dangerous situation. We had mandatory checklists in the airplanes and taught the students to use them, but we'd still see that a few couldn't be bothered to review them after shutting down.
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Were they forgetting the master switch as well? I can’t see reaching up there for the master and not getting the mags while there.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Were they forgetting the master switch as well? I can’t see reaching up there for the master and not getting the mags while there.
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Yes, they'd forget that too.
 
I took my first lesson(and completed my ppl trainging) in a 7KCAB Citabria, also before the tailwheel endorsement was a thing. The one of the first things my instructor warned me about was the out-of-sight/out-of-mind mag and master switches. Great little airplanes. Do great loops and spins, too.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Those ignition switches, being where they are, often get forgotten on shutdown.
Click to expand...
One time I forgot to turn them on... somehow I got the master but not the Mags. It took me a bit of cranking and thinking "I wonder why it's not catching" before I went "d'oh" and saw my mistake.

The whole American Champion (Bellanca prior) lineup are by far some of my favorite aircraft to fly. But don't forget that it's one of the more forgiving taildraggers out there - mastery of one does not equal mastery of all. I've turned down CFII's for training in my Skywagon that think they're hot stuff because they have 25 hours in a Citabria.
 
Being new to the plane, I carefully used the checklist for every single item. But I can see people getting in a hurry and forgetting... Just like I've forgotten to remove the keys from the 172 once (it was off, but keys still in ignition). A bit embarrassing to come back in to the flying club and have the instructor remind me to secure the key in the lockbox only to realize its still in the plane... After that I resolved to to the complete shutdown checklist 100% each time, no matter how much a hurry or how flustered I was.

Hoping to schedule another couple hours in the Citabria this week, maybe tomorrow if winds look decent.

@Mtns2Skies - Yeah, I was told this is one of the more docile tailwheel planes to learn on. I hope to get some time in a few others, but rentals are hard to come by (there is a J3 nearby I can rent). My grandfather had a C-185 on floats. Trips with him in that plane as a young 'un are my fondest memories.

Thinking of going to one of the Pitts Acro schools in FL or AZ over the winter to really hone some skills before I fly my inherited biplane...
 
jbrinker said:
Just like I've forgotten to remove the keys from the 172 once (it was off, but keys still in ignition). A bit embarrassing to come back in to the flying club and have the instructor remind me to secure the key in the lockbox only to realize its still in the plane.
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You're supposed to remove the keys to a plane? Yikes, I get jittery when I take mine out worrying I might misplace them. I rarely ever remove them since I have a hangar, with an alarm.
 
N3368K said:
You're supposed to remove the keys to a plane? Yikes, I get jittery when I take mine out worrying I might misplace them. I rarely ever remove them since I have a hangar, with an alarm.
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Well, its a flying club so... Yeah they go in the lock box :)

If it was my plane, in my hangar, I'd probably not worry about it. But then again, no sense making it "Easy" for some numb-nuts kid who breaks into the hangar and thinks he's gonna go flying with no lesson.
 
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