First time in a tailwheel - Citabria lesson last night

Airplanes aren't what folks breaking into hangars around here are after. We've had a few broken into. Tools and gas are typically the objective. That is why my hangar is alarmed. My Cub, located elsewhere has no keys. Just a mag switch with a handle.
 
Congrats on your first lesson in an aircraft with conventional gear. Welcome to the club.
 
DanWilkins said:
Congrats on your first lesson in an aircraft with conventional gear. Welcome to the club.
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It’s a pretty silly term these days, “conventional” gear. It’s far from convention at this point.

Still, I want more tailwheel time. It makes you work for it.

Lots more satisfying to make a tough crosswind landing and roll-out and the crossover application of knowledge and technique back to nosedraggers is excellent.

Roll-out is important though. I’m firmly on the side of a couple of old tailwheel instructors around here who say too many tailwheel instructors do too many touch and goes.

The tail never becomes almost completely ineffective and the students don’t learn how to handle that no-man’s land between tail effective and tailwheel helping out a little bit.

Which seems to be why all of the rental taildraggers around here end up off the runways, eventually. Hasn’t been one in the local rental fleet yet that hasn’t gone off-roading other than one that I know of, and it’s very new... give it another year I figure.
 
denverpilot said:
It’s a pretty silly term these days, “conventional” gear. It’s far from convention at this point.

Still, I want more tailwheel time. It makes you work for it.
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See. One lesson and you are starting to get it. Congratulations...again.

Yes, I can understand labeling ‘conventional’ as silly. Your frame of reference sees tricycle gear as normal. And today it is normal.

Now I’ll get my dig at a term. We competent tail wheel pilots call a ‘greaser’ a landing.
 
Just scheduled for lesson #2 this afternoon. Winds predicted 1908G12, available runway is 15/33. Winds predicted to be increasing to 10G18 by the end of my lesson block. Not sure that we will go, seeing it's lesson #2, but OTOH I just spent an afternoon practicing Xwind in the C172 on a much worse day and did well. (Yes, I know tailwheel is a whole different game on windy days, so I will leave the call up to the instructor).
 
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Touch and goes are okay if you are doing full stall/three pointers. Even for wheel landings it is okay if you have room to allow it to roll until the tail settles. I've done a bunch of both. What touch and goes does help with, even better than full stop landings, is developing the "bubble in your butt" so that you FEEL a directional deviation and correct before you see it. A swerve at higher speed is easier to detect and react to.

In most light GA taildraggers, few seem to suffer from the rudder becoming ineffective while the tail is still in the air so there really isn't much transition where you are dependent upon brakes only other than perhaps in a really hard crosswind. Typically brakes on the runway in most taildraggers are due to having let something get too far out of alignment before reacting and having to salvage a landing (even the best taildragger pilots do it occasionally, so yes, it is required skill). Even then, a short burst of power is frequently preferable to hard braking...if necessary, a go around after touchdown is preferable to hard braking. Too much brake on rollout causes more problems for low time taildraggers pilots IMHO.

Additionally, the vast majority have steerable tailwheels which also helps in directional control. In typical Cub/Champ and derivatives, etc, the rudder is effective as soon at the throttle is opened. Even those without a steerable tailwheel frequently have locking tailwheel which helps ground track, but brakes become a more frequently used tool but again, mostly at slower speeds. Heck, even a Pitts has a great rudder control at slow speeds...almost too good to the point it gets lots of new Pitts drivers in trouble.

Ironically, tailwheel steering was an option on the Swift. Unlike most free swiveling tailwheel airplanes, it did NOT have a lockable tailwheel. This feature didn't help with its safety record over the last seven decades.

We aren't talking a Beech 18 where the wing blankets the tail and brakes are needed...at least it has a locking tailwheel.
 
denverpilot said:
Roll-out is important though. I’m firmly on the side of a couple of old tailwheel instructors around here who say too many tailwheel instructors do too many touch and goes.

The tail never becomes almost completely ineffective and the students don’t learn how to handle that no-man’s land between tail effective and tailwheel helping out a little bit.

Which seems to be why all of the rental taildraggers around here end up off the runways, eventually. Hasn’t been one in the local rental fleet yet that hasn’t gone off-roading other than one that I know of, and it’s very new... give it another year I figure.
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Exactly right. The instructor should know, and communicate to the student, the change in angle of the relative wind as the airplane slows. A 90-degree, 15-kt crosswind is only 14 degrees off the nose when the airplane is doing 60 knots, and 21 degrees off the nose at 40 knots. Lots of air over the controls and a minor wind angle and the student thinks he's in full control, until he slows to 15 knots where the angle is now 45 degrees and the controls are ineffective. The airplane suddenly weathercocks and heads for the rhubarb.

Like you say, touches-and-goes are not a complete education at all.
 
jbrinker said:
Just scheduled for lesson #2 this afternoon. Winds predicted 1908G12, available runway is 15/33. Winds predicted to be increasing to 10G18 by the end of my lesson block. Not sure that we will go, seeing it's lesson #2, but OTOH I just spent an afternoon practicing Xwind in the C172 on a much worse day and did well. (Yes, I know tailwheel is a whole different game on windy days, so I will leave the call up to the instructor).
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Also did first lesson in a Citabria (last 650+ hours were in my Tiger). My original DPE from 2007 was my instructor. Winds were 16G24 but nearly straight down the runway (pavement no grass here). Feet were operating perfectly, brain wasn't:eek: ... I can't get used to the sight picture for a wheel landing, it looks like a prop strike in the making and I think I "flinch" slightly towards a "tail low" attitude which is bad. Hope I can break this problem fast.
 
jbrinker said:
Took this ol girl up last night with an instructor. First time I've been PIC at the controls of a tailwheel plane. It was a lot of fun, definitely different than flying the 172 or Cherokee 140 but the flying part really wasn't hard to get the hang of. Adverse yaw was much more pronounced, and definitely had to use the rudder a lot.

Probably the hardest thing was keeping track of where everything was since the controls are 100% completely different than everything else I've been in. Kinda fun to have such a simple plane though, no flaps, not even an ignition key just mag switches.

I'd read quite a bit about tailwheel transition, and was pretty prepared, but even with that the first taxi was interesting. Definitely have to stay on top of it at all times, flying or not. NOW I see where the "taxi at walking speed" mantra comes from. Any faster than that in this thing and you stand a good chance of it getting away.

We did a bunch of turns, climbs, descents, stalls, steep turns, etc. Then went over to a local grass strip to practice approaches. That was a blast, and I did well on a couple low approaches. Back to the airport and did one hard surface landing (I felt I got all confused on short final, but the instructor said he didn't really help me much and I did fine). One more on the grass with the instructor flying and me feeling the controls.

Lots of fun, can't wait to do some more. 1.1h TW in the book.
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You like simple? Try a J-3 Cub with no electrical.
After flying over 20 different high performance, cross country and aerobatic planes the J-3 is still my favorite! I like having to hand prop it.
 
Well, lesson #2 was canceled due to winds. 18G22 and not right down the runway. Instructor called me and said not a good day for learning at this point. So I'll try again later on. Main issue there is only one instructor who is allowed to instruct in the TW at this time (another one is hopefully joining up).
 
OK, after digging through several old threads some more than ten years old I can not find an answer.

Here is the scenario:

Bob needs a Flight Review and he is past the two years, has a tail wheel AC, and has many hours in a tail dragger. The CFI has Tail Wheel endorsement, but is not current in tail wheel AC. Bob can not be the PIC and the CFI is not tail wheel current, but the CFI is always assumed to be PIC.

Is this legal?
Smart?
 
A1Topgun said:
OK, after digging through several old threads some more than ten years old I can not find an answer.

Here is the scenario:

Bob needs a Flight Review and he is past the two years, has a tail wheel AC, and has many hours in a tail dragger. The CFI has Tail Wheel endorsement, but is not current in tail wheel AC. Bob can not be the PIC and the CFI is not tail wheel current, but the CFI is always assumed to be PIC.

Is this legal?
Smart?
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It’s legal. There are no passengers on board so no need to be current to carry them. It’s the same as an instructor and student lacking night currency.

Whether or not it is smart to do is dependent on the people and airplane involved.
 
A1Topgun said:
OK, after digging through several old threads some more than ten years old I can not find an answer.

Here is the scenario:

Bob needs a Flight Review and he is past the two years, has a tail wheel AC, and has many hours in a tail dragger. The CFI has Tail Wheel endorsement, but is not current in tail wheel AC. Bob can not be the PIC and the CFI is not tail wheel current, but the CFI is always assumed to be PIC.

Is this legal?
Smart?
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The simple solution is for the CFI to use the AC to do his 3 takeoffs and landings solo first, then Bob hops in and they go do the BFR.
 
mondtster said:
It’s legal. There are no passengers on board so no need to be current to carry them. It’s the same as an instructor and student lacking night currency.

Whether or not it is smart to do is dependent on the people and airplane involved.
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This is what I was thinking. And I've done the night training before, full moon, sharp x-country student, familiar airplane. I like the odds stacked in my favor.
FAA Council views it as required flight crew.
 
Kansas Flyer said:
The simple solution is for the CFI to use the AC to do his 3 takeoffs and landings solo first, then Bob hops in and they go do the BFR.
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Currency is one thing, but if you have not flown a tail wheel in the last decade? I would not trust myself to just jump in and "get current", I would prefer a little refresher training first.
 
danhagan said:
I can't get used to the sight picture for a wheel landing, it looks like a prop strike in the making and I think I "flinch" slightly towards a "tail low" attitude which is bad. Hope I can break this problem fast.
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I had a student that would get nervous about a propsrike in a wheel landing. Finally, on the ramp and with him in his seat, and the prop rotated to vertical, I picked up the tail and lifted it until the prop was a couple of inches off the pavement. "What does that look like?" I asked him. He didn't worry about propstrikes anymore; he was looking what felt like straight down at the pavement.

Now, we did have a strike in one of the Citabrias. It was a wheel landing gone wrong: too fast (which means a much flatter attitude), too firm a contact, and it started to porpoise, and the student tried to fix it instead of lifting the nose and going around. That spring gear will deflect a lot if it's whacked down hard, and the prop managed to touch the runway.

Most wheel landings are just a little faster than a three-point, and the tailwheel is not far off the surface at all. Remember, folks, that airspeed and angle of attack are inextricably linked. Too much speed at touchdown means a nose-low, flat landing, and it can bust trikes as well as taildraggers. Happens all the time.
 
When someone has anxiety with a prop strike on wheel landings, trim the plane a bit nose down so you have to hold back pressure on the stick. That way, instead of having to push, you simply relax the back pressure to stick it. Once they get comfortable with that, have them trim normally and start with a gentle push.
 
N3368K said:
When someone has anxiety with a prop strike on wheel landings, trim the plane a bit nose down so you have to hold back pressure on the stick. That way, instead of having to push, you simply relax the back pressure to stick it. Once they get comfortable with that, have them trim normally and start with a gentle push.
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I used to have students actually put both hands above their head at touchdown on their first wheel landing using some nose-down trim.

That's also how my nephew made a perfect wheel landing when he was 2 1/2...although I was actually planning on us bouncing down the runway and getting a big giggle out of it. The little turd.
 
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