First reported crash en route to Oshkosh

[Ken Ibold]

AFaIK, that's the initial survival rate assuming a controlled entry to the water. Overall the rate is a bit lower due to drownings that occur after a "successful" ditching and cases where the airplane wasn't under control when it hit the water.

You are correct, sir. The analysis I did a few years ago put the initial survival/egress rate in a controlled ditching in the mid 90s percent -- nearly as high as any other off-airport landing accident where control is maintained into the crash landing.

 

[acrophile]

Agreed, just because it has 4 seats is unlikely it had 4 passengers unless they were kids....unless there was a flight plan filed that specifically said 4 people i dont understand how [they're] going on that logic...

Rescuers would rather risk wasting their time than risk wasting lives, so they have to search for as many people as there might plausibly be. If a plane can hold four persons and no flight plan (or other communication) specifies fewer aboard, then that's how many need to look for.

This just kind of stresses for me the importance of flight following so if something does happen [at least] you're still in communication with SOMEONE so you can let them know more...

Flight following is useful, but ATC can discontinue flight following at any time. To be sure of being searched for if you crash, file a flight plan in addition to any flight following. Or fly IFR if able.

 

[acrophile]

121.5 will have you communicating with EVERYBODY instantly.

True, but flight following (or flying IFR) has the further advantage that if you go down without having a chance to communicate, ATC knows when and where you were last seen. A VFR flight plan helps too (especially if flight following gets discontinued), but a flight plan provides less precise guidance to rescuers.

 

[airguy]

Flight following is useful, but ATC can discontinue flight following at any time.

While this is technically true - in 12 years of flying and using flight following on every XC trip, I've never had it happen to me. There have been a couple times where it took me a few minutes to get on the frequency if it was busy, but I've never been given "Unable" or dropped once I was on, unless it was due to me dropping below radar coverage. Speaking from personal experience only I don't buy this line of fear.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

While this is technically true - in 12 years of flying and using flight following on every XC trip, I've never had it happen to me. There have been a couple times where it took me a few minutes to get on the frequency if it was busy, but I've never been given "Unable" or dropped once I was on, unless it was due to me dropping below radar coverage. Speaking from personal experience only I don't buy this line of fear.

Depends where you are. In your area of the country, I've had very good luck. But, try getting flight following from Chicago Approach sometime - Even though they've gotten better, it's far from a sure thing, and they do not accept handoffs of transiting VFR aircraft from other facilities, so if you fly into their airspace (not the Bravo, just the rather large area they're responsible for), whatever facility you're talking to (usually Rockford Approach, Milwaukee Approach, South Bend Approach, or Chicago Center depending where you're coming from), you will get dropped.

Out east, I haven't been dropped per se, but they have other ways - I've been asked to descend and then offered a frequency for a different facility (the descent was out of Center's airspace into someone's approach airspace).

I really wish they'd send all the Chicago approach controllers out to NorCal to learn how it's done. NorCal Approach is truly excellent, and their airspace seems to be much more complex too.

 

[dell30rb]

How would u really know about monoxide poisoning in a 152?

The first symptom is a headache.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Depends where you are. In your area of the country, I've had very good luck.

True....I'been dropped a couple times in New England.

 

[JHW]

The first symptom is a headache.

which you probably already have given the claustrophobia and noise from flying on a C-152, making the problem all the more harrowing.

 

[Apache123]

Depends where you are. In your area of the country, I've had very good luck. But, try getting flight following from Chicago Approach sometime - Even though they've gotten better, it's far from a sure thing, and they do not accept handoffs of transiting VFR aircraft from other facilities, so if you fly into their airspace (not the Bravo, just the rather large area they're responsible for), whatever facility you're talking to (usually Rockford Approach, Milwaukee Approach, South Bend Approach, or Chicago Center depending where you're coming from), you will get dropped.

I've been dropped by Chicago Approach at the handoff quite a few times, but I've never been denied a transit or flight following by Milwaukee. I don't know why they wouldn't just talk to mke approach to get through their airspace, especially if it was an atp cfii on board that wouldn't be overwhelmed/afraid of controlled airspace?

I've done KUGN to KETB and back along the lackfront and once a mid-field transition at milwaukee. The controllers there have always been courteous and not once have I had them deny/drop me.

 

[jesse]

As safety minded as you seem to be I would guess you do have a CO monitor. If not please buy one. I use two on my plane. My G1000 has one and I have a free standing one as well. CO poisoning can be quite insidious and many a person has died because of that. In the last few years, two couples who live in my dad's community died because they forgot to turn off their cars. They had these push button starts where you do not use a key. Some would think it was suicide, but everyone in the community who knows these people are 100% sure that's not the case.

I have a small, keychain sized, rather accurate co monitor that I sometimes have with. I've flown 52 different aircraft in the last two years. When you're flying a lot of different airplanes all owned by different people you tend to encounter more problems. I don't always have my co monitor but I do if I think co is a significant risk for the flight. Carrying all the random safety gadgets I own into tons of different airplanes is not realistic so you calculate the significant risks and tool for it.

Know your symptoms, for me, co poisoning carries about the same symptoms as hypoxia since its a very similar thing. General fatigue and a headache come on long before I'd no longer be able to safely end the flight.

 

[jmn444]

It appears that another one is down in Knox Indiana . Sad stuff.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I have a small, keychain sized, rather accurate co monitor that I sometimes have with. I've flown 52 different aircraft in the last two years. When you're flying a lot of different airplanes all owned by different people you tend to encounter more problems. I don't always have my co monitor but I do if I think co is a significant risk for the flight. Carrying all the random safety gadgets I own into tons of different airplanes is not realistic so you calculate the significant risks and tool for it.

Know your symptoms, for me, co poisoning carries about the same symptoms as hypoxia since its a very similar thing. General fatigue and a headache come on long before I'd no longer be able to safely end the flight.

You never know in any aircraft when CO may be hazardous. Your keychain unit is too much hassle for every flight? It sounds like a great sensor, does it give a loud alarm?

 

[dell30rb]

You never know in any aircraft when CO may be hazardous. Your keychain unit is too much hassle for every flight? It sounds like a great sensor, does it give a loud alarm?

You probably wouldn't have a need for it in the summer with cabin heat off and the fresh air vents open full blast.

It is likely one of the $10-15 units that sporty's sells. Basically a piece of paper that changes color when CO is present.

 

[Dave Theisen]

Try moving up north where we actually use the heat

Spent my first 30 years and 3000 hours living in Connecticut. I'm well versed in winter ops.

 

[timwinters]

While this is technically true - in 12 years of flying and using flight following on every XC trip, I've never had it happen to me.

As others as said, successfully maintaining FF from departure to destination is highly dependent upon the region.

When I was working in Wisconsin, flying back and forth nearly every week, I would transition Rockford approach. I can count on one hand how many times they would hand me off to the next airspace. They regularly just said "bye, see ya" as you were exiting their airspace and if you'd ask for a frequency they'd get p!ssy

Biggest group of A holes I've dealt with thus far. Worse than Chicago and I used to regularly transition their space too.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

You probably wouldn't have a need for it in the summer with cabin heat off and the fresh air vents open full blast.

It is likely one of the $10-15 units that sporty's sells. Basically a piece of paper that changes color when CO is present.

Maybe, but then before you know it, the vents are closed and cabin heat or defrost is on for some reason.

We had a C170 go down in the sound here taking two old pilots with it a few years ago from CO.

 

[wanttaja]

The first symptom is a headache.

In my case, there were three rated pilots in the airplane (Mooney) and only one (in the rear seat) developed a headache. The PIC didn't notice any physical symptoms.

I was in the co-pilot seat, and didn't notice anything in flight other than a bit of fatigue (and it'd been a long day). Passed out in the terminal building, afterwards.

Lotsa fun, being teenaged in 1972, in the Midwest, and passing out in public. Airport security figured I was stoned and dragged me off to their office.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[wanttaja]

You probably wouldn't have a need for it in the summer with cabin heat off and the fresh air vents open full blast.

*Really* depends. Friend of mine got CO poisoning in a Starduster (open cockpit biplane).

The cockpit is a low-pressure area, and if there's any sort of exhaust leak, it's probable that it's going to reach the cabin. Doesn't have to be the heater. Ram air probably *does* help, but it's not comfortable all the time....

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

*Really* depends. Friend of mine got CO poisoning in a Starduster (open cockpit biplane).

The cockpit is a low-pressure area, and if there's any sort of exhaust leak, it's probable that it's going to reach the cabin. Doesn't have to be the heater. Ram air probably *does* help, but it's not comfortable all the time....

Ron Wanttaja

Who'd believe it could happen in an open cockpit prior to a documented occurrence?!

 

[gkaiser]

As others as said, successfully maintaining FF from departure to destination is highly dependent upon the region.

When I was working in Wisconsin, flying back and forth nearly every week, I would transition Rockford approach. I can count on one hand how many times they would hand me off to the next airspace. They regularly just said "bye, see ya" as you were exiting their airspace and if you'd ask for a frequency they'd get p!ssy

Biggest group of A holes I've dealt with thus far. Worse than Chicago and I used to regularly transition their space too.

Ugh! I'm not liking that. I'm a very low time PPL doing a XC to Oklahoma this weekend..and I'll be using rockford trsa as my airport is inside their space..and I was hoping Rockford would hand me off to the next controlling agency...

 

[USAF JD]

I use RFD all the time and they always pass me to MSN without an issue.

 

[douglas393]

I have a small, keychain sized, rather accurate co monitor that I sometimes have with. I've flown 52 different aircraft in the last two years. When you're flying a lot of different airplanes all owned by different people you tend to encounter more problems. I don't always have my co monitor but I do if I think co is a significant risk for the flight. Carrying all the random safety gadgets I own into tons of different airplanes is not realistic so you calculate the significant risks and tool for it.

Know your symptoms, for me, co poisoning carries about the same symptoms as hypoxia since its a very similar thing. General fatigue and a headache come on long before I'd no longer be able to safely end the flight.

Though I have not experienced CO poisoning when I was in the AF at a much younger age, I did the altitude chamber thing as part of my training. Hypoxia is very similar to carbon monoxide poisoning and can be very insidious. You do not realize it is occurring as it affects your thinking, and counting on recognizing the symptoms can lead you to a point of no return. I would not consider having a working CO monitor an optional device. It may be as important in saving your life as having oil in the engine, and fuel in the tank. The reviews on those paper monitors that change colors is pretty poor and they have a very limited lifetime.

 

[airheadpenguin]

Ugh! I'm not liking that. I'm a very low time PPL doing a XC to Oklahoma this weekend..and I'll be using rockford trsa as my airport is inside their space..and I was hoping Rockford would hand me off to the next controlling agency...

Highlight those boxes that say "Contact <facility> within 20nm on <freq>" problem solved

 

[timwinters]

I use RFD all the time and they always pass me to MSN without an issue.

Maybe (hopefully) they've gotten better. It's been three...four years since I had the pleasure of being abused by them.

I remember one day flying through there and they had what sounded like a "student"---maybe somebody working on a type rating---shooting approaches in a Citation. They were doing everything in their power to screw with the poor guy to get him to leave their airspace.

He finally did.

It really seemed like they were creating a dangerous situation for him.

 

[masloki]

Just went through Rockford Approach last month. Gave me a traffic call and stayed with me to make sure it was no factor. Then gave me the freq for Chicago Approach, but as usual, Chicago had no idea who I was. I would not expect an issue from Rockford - another time, they negotiated me cutting through the top of KJVL and kept me on frequency. Chicago approach will work with you, but not hand you off. They will give you the next frequency. Have a safe trip to OK!

 

[gkaiser]

Highlight those boxes that say "Contact <facility> within 20nm on <freq>" problem solved

Yep. Doing that now actually.

 

[azure]

You probably wouldn't have a need for it in the summer with cabin heat off and the fresh air vents open full blast.

I carry an Aeromedix Pocket CO monitor and have seen significant levels of CO (routinely 10-20 ppm, occasionally up to 35 or so, and once even higher) with the gear down on final approach in the summer. "Open vents" is on my before landing checklist, and it helps, but is not enough to eliminate the problem. The exhaust smell by itself is sometimes quite strong on rollout (I open my triangular window as soon as practical). This is a common occurrence in Cardinals, and some owners have seen MUCH higher numbers.

It is likely one of the $10-15 units that sporty's sells. Basically a piece of paper that changes color when CO is present.

"Small, keychain sized, rather accurate CO monitor" actually sounds a lot like the Aeromedix. It's a digital monitor that reads current exposure and time-averaged exposure in ppm, and total exposure in ppm-hours. I would not describe a piece of paper that changes color as "rather accurate", but I can't speak for Jesse of course.

 

[Banjo33]

That's sounds pretty significant azure. Pardon my ignorance, but doesn't carbon monoxide stay in your system for a decent amount of time? It seems that if you're flying regularly (consecutive days....ie a multi-day cross country trip), then you could potentially have much higher levels in your system due to its compounding. Why are the Cardinals more susceptible?

 

[azure]

That's sounds pretty significant azure. Pardon my ignorance, but doesn't carbon monoxide stay in your system for a decent amount of time? It seems that if you're flying regularly (consecutive days....ie a multi-day cross country trip), then you could potentially have much higher levels in your system due to its compounding. Why are the Cardinals more susceptible?

You're absolutely right, however the numbers I quoted are instantaneous exposures, while the more significant indicator of health impact is cumulative exposure in ppm-hours. Except when I had a malfunctioning sensor that read a few ppm even away from any source of CO, I've never seen cumulative readings anywhere near much less over 10 ppm-hours after a multi-hour day in the air.

Why Cardinals in particular have this problem is one I've never figured out. I suspect that it gets in the same way water does when flying through the rain -- i.e., around the door frame. Having the gear up in the wells alters the airflow significantly, but the mystery (to me) is why it happens more at lower airspeeds, since the pressure differential between cabin and exterior increases with airspeed. Also I've noticed that it only happens at most a few hundred feet above ground. I've been unable to get much CO in the cabin while practicing slow flight or even simulated landing descents at altitude.

Anyway my main point was to agree that not running the heat is no guarantee that you won't have a CO issue, and the only way to know for sure is to carry an accurately calibrated monitor of some kind. (And yes, the Aeromedix sounds an alarm at higher exposure levels -- three separate thresholds IIRC.)

 

[jesse]

You never know in any aircraft when CO may be hazardous. Your keychain unit is too much hassle for every flight? It sounds like a great sensor, does it give a loud alarm?

Though I have not experienced CO poisoning when I was in the AF at a much younger age, I did the altitude chamber thing as part of my training. Hypoxia is very similar to carbon monoxide poisoning and can be very insidious. You do not realize it is occurring as it affects your thinking, and counting on recognizing the symptoms can lead you to a point of no return. I would not consider having a working CO monitor an optional device. It may be as important in saving your life as having oil in the engine, and fuel in the tank. The reviews on those paper monitors that change colors is pretty poor and they have a very limited lifetime.

I'm not saying it's not a risk. But seriously. Be real about this. What percentage of people getting killed in GA aircraft were killed because of CO? Yes it's dangerous but pilots are very rarely dropping out of the sky because of it.

How many people out there actually have a CO detector in their aircraft or carry one in all the aircraft they fly? I fly with a lot of different people and I probably see an actual electronic one that would have a chance at working in maybe 1 in every 50 planes. Maybe less.

My detector is a small electronic sensor with alarms, exposure tracking, and the ability to output what is going on in PPM. I use it when I think it's appropriate but I most certainly do not carry, position, and activate it in every airplane I'm doing a flight review in during the middle of June.

 

[bnt83]

I'm not saying it's not a risk. But seriously. Be real about this. What percentage of people getting killed in GA aircraft were killed because of CO? Yes it's dangerous but pilots are very rarely dropping out of the sky because of it.

How many people out there actually have a CO detector in their aircraft or carry one in all the aircraft they fly? I fly with a lot of different people and I probably see an actual electronic one that would have a chance at working in maybe 1 in every 50 planes. Maybe less.

My detector is a small electronic sensor with alarms, exposure tracking, and the ability to output what is going on in PPM. I use it when I think it's appropriate but I most certainly do not carry, position, and activate it in every airplane I'm doing a flight review in during the middle of June.

How many of them have a fire extinuisher?

FWIW the CFI who works the line at my employer didn't even know if our employer's 172 had one, even though he flys it often.

I carry one from airplane to airplane, and not the tiny 0.9 # Halon blend with a plastic handle either.

 

[douglas393]

I'm not saying it's not a risk. But seriously. Be real about this. What percentage of people getting killed in GA aircraft were killed because of CO? Yes it's dangerous but pilots are very rarely dropping out of the sky because of it.

How many people out there actually have a CO detector in their aircraft or carry one in all the aircraft they fly? I fly with a lot of different people and I probably see an actual electronic one that would have a chance at working in maybe 1 in every 50 planes. Maybe less.

My detector is a small electronic sensor with alarms, exposure tracking, and the ability to output what is going on in PPM. I use it when I think it's appropriate but I most certainly do not carry, position, and activate it in every airplane I'm doing a flight review in during the middle of June.

I do not disagree at all with your point. My comment was just that CO can kill you without you realizing you are being affected. It is essentially hypoxia, and thinking you will know when it is occurring and thinking you will be able to then get yourself out of the situation safely could be wishful and dangerous thinking.

As for what others do and basing my practices on that, well I am not the type who will jump off the bridge because all my friends did either. I have two CO monitors in my plane, and four in my boat. I also have CO monitors and fire alarms in my house. I can go on and on and on with all the things I do for safety reasons, but for some reason it seems to me that the time you do not do something is the time you need it the most.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I'm not saying it's not a risk. But seriously. Be real about this. What percentage of people getting killed in GA aircraft were killed because of CO? Yes it's dangerous but pilots are very rarely dropping out of the sky because of it.

How many people out there actually have a CO detector in their aircraft or carry one in all the aircraft they fly? I fly with a lot of different people and I probably see an actual electronic one that would have a chance at working in maybe 1 in every 50 planes. Maybe less.

My detector is a small electronic sensor with alarms, exposure tracking, and the ability to output what is going on in PPM. I use it when I think it's appropriate but I most certainly do not carry, position, and activate it in every airplane I'm doing a flight review in during the middle of June.

The ones that do succumb would be the ones that don't use a detector with alarm.

Carrying a small and reliable sensitive CO alarm in my flightbag for every flight is probably the easiest of all safety steps I take and yeah it does work very well. I'd like it even better if it was on a key chain.

 

[NoHeat]

I'm not saying it's not a risk. But seriously. Be real about this. What percentage of people getting killed in GA aircraft were killed because of CO? Yes it's dangerous but pilots are very rarely dropping out of the sky because of it.

Lots of fatalities. Search google with this phrase: monoxide site:ntsb.gov

Here is an example of a 4-fatality crash:


THE ESTIMATED TIME OF TAKEOFF WAS ABOUT 1930 EST. THE ROUTE OF FLT BEFORE 2000 EST WAS NOT KNOWN. AT APRX 2005, THE PLT REPORTED THAT HE WAS UNSURE OF HIS POSITION. SHORTLY AFTER THAT, THE ACFT WAS IDENTIFIED OVER A MILITARY FIRING RANGE. THE PLT WAS VECTORED FROM THE RANGE TOWARD OCEAN ISLE, NC. AT 2052, THE PLT ACKNOWLEDGED INSTRUCTIONS TO CHANGE TO MYRTLE BEACH APCH CONTROL FREQ, BUT HE DID NOT CONTACT APCH CONTROL. SUBSEQUENTLY, A FEMALE PASSENGER RADIOED THAT THE PLT WAS UNCONSCIOUS & THAT THEY WERE LOST. ATC & THE PLT OF ANOTHER ACFT TRIED TO ASSIST, BUT THE PASSENGER WAS EXTREMELY EXCITED & COMMUNICATION WITH HER WAS VERY DIFFICULT. THE PLT OF THE OTHER ACFT THOUGHT HE HEARD A MALE VOICE IN THE BACKGROUND STATE 'GIVE ME SOME AIR.' SUBSEQUENTLY, THE ACFT CRASHED (AT NIGHT) WHILE IN A STEEP NOSE DOWN. SLIGHTLY INVERTED, R WING LOW ATTITUDE. TOXICOLOGICAL TESTS SHOWED THAT THE PLT & 3 PASSENGERS HAD THE FOLLOWING CARBON MONOXIDE LEVELS: 24%, 22%, 35% & 44%. THE EXACT POSITION OF A CARBON MONOXIDE LEAK WAS NOT FOUND.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:

EXHAUST SYSTEM..LEAK

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:

INCAPACITATION(CARBON MONOXIDE)..PILOT IN COMMAND

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I use RFD all the time and they always pass me to MSN without an issue.

It's maybe not RFD's issue - I know that at least two of the neighboring facilities do not accept VFR handoffs from anybody. MSN controllers are some of the best I the business, but they can't hand you off to MKE because MKE simply does not accept VFR Handoffs.

I've never had an issue getting handed off from RFD to MSN or Chicago Center.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I've been dropped by Chicago Approach at the handoff quite a few times, but I've never been denied a transit or flight following by Milwaukee. I don't know why they wouldn't just talk to mke approach to get through their airspace, especially if it was an atp cfii on board that wouldn't be overwhelmed/afraid of controlled airspace?

I'm not afraid of any airspace, but I avoid MKE most of the time because they can be a real pain - I frequently end up with an altitude restriction and on vectors that keep me outside their airspace anyway, and then with 1nm to go before my home field's class D, they drop me, leaving me to swerve away while I get in touch with tower. Of course, they also don't cancel the altitude restriction until I'm close in so I end up hot and high too.

So, I've gotten in the habit of just going around since that's what I usually have to do anyway, but if I don't talk to MKE approach there's no altitude restriction and I have plenty of time to call the tower. I would imagine that someone with lots of experience flying out of Racine has probably also come to the conclusion that it's usually not worth calling MKE approach.

 

[Skylane81E]

Why Cardinals in particular have this problem is one I've never figured out.

Check the gear wells, make sure they are well sealed

 

[azure]

Check the gear wells, make sure they are well sealed

Already done.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

So, I got some new info on this crash.

Apparently, he DID call up Milwaukee Approach, and he wanted to go up the lakeshore at 1500 MSL (~900 AGL). They were landing on the 25's at the time, and the airport is fairly close to the lake (the Class C surface area extends out into/over the lake).

There was an MD80 inbound that was going to cause a conflict. There were some exchanges between the Cherokee and the controller to attempt to resolve it, but in the end the controller had to issue a turn to 090 to the Cherokee.

When the Cherokee reported the MD80 in sight, the controller told him to maintain visual separation and resume own navigation, but he cut in really close behind the MD80.

As soon as the Cherokee crossed the path the MD80 had flown, the radar showed a nearly vertical plunge to the water.

So, the suspected cause is that the Cherokee went right into the MD80's wake, and when it hit the left wingtip vortex it pitched down sharply - pointed straight down or even past it - and that attitude was simply unrecoverable at that low altitude.

Sad, but entirely preventable.

 

[gkaiser]

Makes sense. So when I see something of that size along my route..regardless of altitude..how far should I stay away?