First Plane, but What to Buy???

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derek884

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Derek
I am a 28yr old pilot in Texas. I am looking to buy my first plane.

Budget $20K

Interests: Aerobatics, Cross Country Flying, Any Flying

Ideal Plane Traits:
-Low Cost
-Fuel Efficient
-High Cruise Speed
-Aerobatic Capable - wanted but not required

Planes I am looking at:

Pitts S1C -$15-20k - Great for aerobatics, but pretty much nothing else.
Acro Sport - $15-20k - Also great for aerobatics, but more docile
Varieze - $15-25k - Super badass efficiency. Awesome speed, fuel efficiency, and cool looking. Con - Low G loading, danger of wing root problems, low useful load
Dragonfly - $12-20k - Also efficient and fast. Cool, but bad reputation for landing.
Sonerai II - $8-15k - Decent cruise, super efficient, low cost, 6G loading

I think a RV or Long-EZ would problably fit the bill the best, but it is out of my price range.

So, it depends on the day, but tonight I am leaning toward the Sonerai II. It is a cheap, solid reliable plane that I can build up flying time at low cost and low financial risk. It also has the possibility of carrying a passenger, which is nice. (I'm 5'8" 160lb).

Here is one I am looking at:
http://barnstormers.com/cat.php?mode=listing&main=
It's $12k with a almost new engine and it's near me. The only thing I worry about is I can buy much more of a plane for a few grand more. Will I regret this? 70hp Sonerai vs 105hp Varieze vs 160hp Acrosport

Also, another thing I am considering is I live in Houston. Hangar space is like $350 a month vs $50-100 for a tie down. I understand most of these planes should be hangared. Definitely the fabric/fiberglass. The Sonerai has fabric Fuselage and steel wings. Is this a problem? Would getting a plane cover solve the problem?

Anyhow, I am looking for some advice. I pretty much only know what I have searched on the internet. Am I looking at the right planes or should I be considering something else? What do you think about my choices?

Thanks!!

Derek
 
Is sole ownership the only way you want to go, or would you consider co-ownership?

$20k pooled with one or two others of same amount gets you more aircraft, and more folks to spread the recurring costs onto.
 
I'd go the VariEze route. While aerobatics are fun I don't think you'll find a nice aerobatic aircraft for your price range. And believe me the insurance companies will know you have an aerobatic plane and price accordingly. As far as the wing corosion problem, just get one from a dry climate and inspect the spar cap before buying. I think you'd be hard pressed to find one that actually had problems. Even the ones that do will still meet normal/utility G limits of a production aircraft despite what Rutan recommends. I'd go with cross country effiency over aerobatics any day. While I fly my Glasair for weekend aerobatics I still prefer the utility of flying my Velocity cross country. Guess ultimately it depends on your primary mission.
 
I usually caution first time buyers away from experimentals, only because there are lots of ownership issues to catch up on with any aircraft, and additional ones from the experimental nature of the aircraft in question steepening the learning curve.
 
my first 3 aircraft were experimental-amatuer builts. I didn't buy something type certified until #4.
 
Sonerii-II. Designed by Monnett. Crisp handling, decent but not spectacular acro, decent XC speed, darn good efficiency, and you can buy them for a cup of Joe.

Downsides are rear seat solo, VW powered(keep up the mx and it's not an issue), tight cockpit, fast landing(sym airfoil) and noisy as all hell.

If you go up a few bucks in price you want the Sonex/Waiex. All the good things about the Sonerii family, but a better NACA airfoil, lower landing speed, and still excellent design. Check barnstormers.com, priced around $30k. I would save up for a Sonex myself.

<edit; Hey, if you're around DFW and want a partner in a Sonex/Waiex, drop me a note by PM.>
 
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derek884 said:
I am a 28yr old pilot in Texas. I am looking to buy my first plane.

Budget $20K

Interests: Aerobatics, Cross Country Flying, Any Flying

Ideal Plane Traits:
-Low Cost
-Fuel Efficient
-High Cruise Speed
-Aerobatic Capable - wanted but not required

Thanks!!

Derek
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If you're not planning on taking any passengers, how about the Mini IMP
 
Have to agree with steingar. learning to fly an airplane and dealing with the unknowns of an experimental are more risks than I would take on. Buy some time in a 172 or 182 or Cherokee.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Is sole ownership the only way you want to go, or would you consider co-ownership?

$20k pooled with one or two others of same amount gets you more aircraft, and more folks to spread the recurring costs onto.
Click to expand...

:yes:

2 guys with $40k can afford a flying RV-6a.

One I owned 5 years ago just sold for $26k. Not a bad bird at all.
 
Flying a Sonerai II is not for the faint of heart. Tail dragger, rear seat, VW engine, high landing speed.
 
cslane said:
Have to agree with steingar. learning to fly an airplane and dealing with the unknowns of an experimental are more risks than I would take on. Buy some time in a 172 or 182 or Cherokee.
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For all you know he's gotta couple hundred hours in rentals and is very mechanically inclined.
 
Still, the audacity has to be commended.

With a similar budget, I was looking at 150s, and not even 150 Aerobat.
 
steingar said:
I usually caution first time buyers away from experimentals, only because there are lots of ownership issues to catch up on with any aircraft, and additional ones from the experimental nature of the aircraft in question steepening the learning curve.
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I usually caution first time buyers away from standard certificated aircraft only because there are lots of ownership issues to catch up on with any aircraft and the additional ones from FAA paperwork can result in a very expensive learning curve when some sharp eyed AI finds that the propeller, or carburetor, or... that was installed in the 1960's has the wrong part number.

Plus you have the issues of finding the exact replacement part for some switch that hasn't been in production since the '50s - you can't just find one in the Mouser catalog that will function perfectly well if you have a standard certificated aircraft - you have to pay through the nose for an obsolete, worn out, used part.

As a new owner, you are also held hostage by the system and forced to deal with unfamiliar mechanics who may or may not be looking to make their next condo payment when your airplane shows up for what should be a minor repair.

Just browse through the Maintanance Bay for lots of examples:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54382 - you apparently need an STC to just replace the fasteners on the cowl with something that will actually work. Really, an STC for some stupid screws.

Owner produced parts? http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53607 Not even a hint of an issue with this kind of thing if you have an E-AB.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54307 - a simple panel overlay? "As far as being fabricated at your local machine shop is not legal. Parts must be TSO'd or PMA. " You gotta be effing kidding...

etc. etc. etc.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I usually caution first time buyers away from standard certificated aircraft only because there are lots of ownership issues to catch up on with any aircraft and the additional ones from FAA paperwork can result in a very expensive learning curve when some sharp eyed AI finds that the propeller, or carburetor, or... that was installed in the 1960's has the wrong part number.

Plus you have the issues of finding the exact replacement part for some switch that hasn't been in production since the '50s - you can't just find one in the Mouser catalog that will function perfectly well if you have a standard certificated aircraft - you have to pay through the nose for an obsolete, worn out, used part.

As a new owner, you are also held hostage by the system and forced to deal with unfamiliar mechanics who may or may not be looking to make their next condo payment when your airplane shows up for what should be a minor repair.

Just browse through the Maintanance Bay for lots of examples:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54382 - you apparently need an STC to just replace the fasteners on the cowl with something that will actually work. Really, an STC for some stupid screws.

Owner produced parts? http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53607 Not even a hint of an issue with this kind of thing if you have an E-AB.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54307 - a simple panel overlay? "As far as being fabricated at your local machine shop is not legal. Parts must be TSO'd or PMA. " You gotta be effing kidding...

etc. etc. etc.
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In my lifetime, I've seen 2 E-AB airplanes I'd actually get in and fly. The 2nd such airplane arrived at my airport yesterday. The great thing about E-AB planes is that you can use parts from Wal-Mart, the bad thing about them, is, someone else already has.
 
bartmc said:
In my lifetime, I've seen 2 E-AB airplanes I'd actually get in and fly. The 2nd such airplane arrived at my airport yesterday. The great thing about E-AB planes is that you can use parts from Wal-Mart, the bad thing about them, is, someone else already has.
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Rarely do you see homebuilts these days with auto parts. That was common years ago but not now. Check out the homebuilts at OSH. They're pristine. They use aircraft hardware, have better performance than production, cost less, and look better than production. It should be no brainier buying a homebuilt over a production. Buy a 10 yr old aircraft with better aerodynamics and an advanced panel or a 40 yr old aircraft who's airframe is past it's time with an old panel and costs twice as much to maintain. Then of course the primary reason I fly a homebuilt. They're just a blast to fly.
 
If there is an Ex/AB that meets your mission you will do well in the long and short run to exercise that option. How about a Mustang II or T-18? RV 4s get close to that number.
 
jmp470 said:
Go with the Titan T-51. Nice looking plane
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If I was to build, it would be a T-51. Love that plane. Used examples are just way over priced though.
 
I'm convinced homebuilts can, and in may cases, are safer than older certified aircraft. It is so easy to get good parts -- if Wicks or Aircraft Spruce doesn't have it, then a farm/tractor company has a part about eight times stronger for less money than a certified part.

Even old homebuilts can be far safer than certified ones because when a new way of doing something more safely comes along, it can be done on a homebuilt -- but not on a certified plane unless someone has spent a lot of money getting an STC.
 
bartmc said:
In my lifetime, I've seen 2 E-AB airplanes I'd actually get in and fly. The 2nd such airplane arrived at my airport yesterday. The great thing about E-AB planes is that you can use parts from Wal-Mart, the bad thing about them, is, someone else already has.
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Which ones are they, and why? Must be outstanding aircraft and builders....
 
If so, why did the FAA feel it was necessary to chasten the home-builts to clean up their act rather than the certs?

tinerj said:
I'm convinced homebuilts can, and in may cases, are safer than older certified aircraft. It is so easy to get good parts -- if Wicks or Aircraft Spruce doesn't have it, then a farm/tractor company has a part about eight times stronger for less money than a certified part.

Even old homebuilts can be far safer than certified ones because when a new way of doing something more safely comes along, it can be done on a homebuilt -- but not on a certified plane unless someone has spent a lot of money getting an STC.
Click to expand...
 
steingar said:
I usually caution first time buyers away from experimentals, only because there are lots of ownership issues to catch up on with any aircraft, and additional ones from the experimental nature of the aircraft in question steepening the learning curve.
Click to expand...

Calling BS.

Certifies in his prices range are gonna eat his lunch in maintenance. Experimentals don't have near the maintenance costs.
 
Double flag. Not a big deal when all is counted.

Geico266 said:
Calling BS.

Certifies in his prices range are gonna eat his lunch in maintenance. Experimentals don't have near the maintenance costs.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
If so, why did the FAA feel it was necessary to chasten the home-builts to clean up their act rather than the certs?
Click to expand...

Here's the thing about home builts and kit planes. To be safely operated, they require a lot of self discipline. First, when the plane is built, or maintained, one must resist the temptation to buy hardware from the local OSH, or mechanical parts from the local Auto Zone. While parts may look the same and actually fit, they often are not.

Second, discipline is required when you fly the plane. It is not certified and in all likelihood would fail the certification trials miserably. This means that it has a smaller safe envelope of hamfisted, lazy, pilot technique and it also means that it will likely not fare too well in an emergency landing.

Kit plane and plans built plane designers haven't cleverly invented cold fusion in a bucket of water or anything. They don't have any magic Skunk Works bullets. They have made conscious design decisions to to trade safety margins for performance. What this means for the owner/pilot of these planes is they need to recognize this fact and act accordingly. The plane says "experimental" on the side. Fly it and maintain it like it really is an experiment with your life on the line and all will be just fine.
 
Look at how much it cost to fly per hr. Also look at how much the annuals are going to cost.

I have to disagree with the statement about EAB. When you buy one take an A&P with you, or have it inspected by an A&P before you purchase.

Make sure the Registration is current with the FAA. on any bird you buy today. Some missed thier renewal time for the registration on the bird they fly or own. On any bird like this you will have to re-n-number this bird with a new N number. That could get costly to have done. I do not know for I have never had to deal with it but just a warning, check registration.

Myself speaking for me, its alot less expensive to fly and maintain my EAB then it is for my hangar mate to maintain his 172 and or fly per hr. Where he burns 50 bucks worth of fuel in a couple hrs. I burn about 1.5 gallons or about 10 bucks worth of fuel.

What good is it if you own a bird that cost to much to fly.

If you do all the above you will come out with a very nice bird you will look forward to flying, not a bird that you have to save money to fly.

Again I am speaking for me.

H.A.S.
 
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So all that is out the window for people who can actually afford their airplane and don't really care if the MX and fuel costs are a bit more or a bit less?

1600vw said:
Look at how much it cost to fly per hr. Also look at how much the annuals are going to cost.

I have to disagree with the statement about EAB. When you buy one take an A&P with you, or have it inspected by an A&P before you purchase.

Make sure the Registration is current with the FAA. on any bird you buy today. Some missed thier renewal time for the registration on the bird they fly or own. On any bird like this you will have to re-n-number this bird with a new N number. That could get costly to have done. I do not know for I have never had to deal with it but just a warning, check registration.

Myself speaking for me, its alot less expensive to fly and maintain my EAB then it is for my hangar mate to maintain his 172 and or fly per hr. Where he burns 50 bucks worth of fuel in a couple hrs. I burn about 1.5 gallons or about 10 bucks worth of fuel.

What good is it if you own a bird that cost to much to fly.

If you do all the above you will come out with a very nice bird you will look forward to flying, not a bird that you have to save money to fly.

Again I am speaking for me.

H.A.S.
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wabower said:
So all that is out the window for people who can actually afford their airplane and don't really care if the MX and fuel costs are a bit more or a bit less?
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Yep, if money is no object to you, ignore everything I said.

Now you have a good day.

H.A.S.
 
Thank you very much. It's not the money, it's that the difference in doing it the way I want to do it is immaterial, and I've been doing it exactly that way for 40+years without getting wrapped around the axle and trying to figure out how much gas my hangar-mate's airplane uses.

Have one yourself.

1600vw said:
Yep, if money is no object to you, ignore everything I said.

Now you have a good day.

H.A.S.
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wabower said:
So all that is out the window for people who can actually afford their airplane and don't really care if the MX and fuel costs are a bit more or a bit less?
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Have you always looked down your nose at EAB?

H.A.S
 
Geico266 said:
Calling BS.

Certifies in his prices range are gonna eat his lunch in maintenance. Experimentals don't have near the maintenance costs.
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We should compare MX numbers some time.

I spent, on average, annual included, $1200/year on my Cherokee on MX in 3.5 years of ownership. The first annual is responsible for the majority of that (with an oil cooler hose replacement and a mag rebuild). And not once did I ever write a check to an A&P for work performed that I would have done myself had I had an experimental.

Have you ever owned a certified plane?
 
I bet what you pay for a new engine I could buy a complete built and flying EAB.

Then when I need to replace my engine its around 3 grand.

Now I am not knocking certifited airplanes. I love them. But not everyone can afford them.

So I guess we EAB owners are looked at like second rate pilots, thats fine.

H.A.S.
 
If that's how you feel, knock yourself out. Nobody buy you is saying anything about EAB's other than hearing the knee-jerk "MX IS CHEAPER" crap gets old every frigging day without any frigging idea about what an owner needs or wants for a personal airplane. And give all that "I bet the cost is more" BS a rest. We already agreed that I don't give a rats.

1600vw said:
I bet what you pay for a new engine I could buy a complete built and flying EAB.

Then when I need to replace my engine its around 3 grand.

Now I am not knocking certifited airplanes. I love them. But not everyone can afford them.

So I guess we EAB owners are looked at like second rate pilots, thats fine.

H.A.S.
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wabower said:
Have you ever owned anything else?
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Wayne No I never have owned a certified bird, Like I said out of my price range. I am lucky to have what I have.

I am not ashamed to admit this. I am a poor man whom flies a poor mans bird. I don't know everything, my spelling sucks, I ***** to much, just ask my wife. I could go on but this thread is not about me and its boring stuff anyway.

H.A.S.
 
wabower said:
If so, why did the FAA feel it was necessary to chasten the home-builts to clean up their act rather than the certs?
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Because the mentality of the RV community for the most part. Same as the rest of GA, the most dangerous thing is between the pilots ears. It's a different mentality involved in a lot of the issues.
 
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