first night flight and a couple of observations / questions

[WannFly]

ok had my first night flight this week. i know, i know its a little early to do a night flight for me, but school was offering a Christmas lights tour over the city and i took that opportunity and had 2 px with me as well. so guess, first flight with px as well...

first observation while take off .. took a whole lot of muscle to keep the nose down with weight at the back.. forgot about the trim wheel. mostly flew on auto-pilot 1000 AGL over the city with my CFI hand-flying most of the times while over the city and then handed me over when we were on the outskirts.

While taking off tower asked us to stay with them and i noticed my CFI was asking for approval before making every turn or informing them when were circling over something. is that a normal practice or you just do it when the tower asks you to stay with them?

I normally glare at the instruments, but for some odd reason this time around i was looking outside most of the time, guess beauty of the night flight. i do get drawn in to the screens while making turns trying to make sure the ball is absolutely centered, however, i have noticed when my CFI flies, the ball gets a little bit here and there so i am guessing its not a big deal? do you use the rudder when you feel the need or do you anticipate the need of rudder in advance and proactively apply it? i think this is the main reason i am focused inside, gazing at the ball.

while coming back, flew the pattern, the wind picked up again at 33 kts (we took off at 10 kts an hour back) and what i thought to be pretty heavy turbulence, my CFI confirmed its a mild one out here... . landing was like riding a boat, oscillating like a pendulum in a quarterly headwind... of course he landed the plane, but good experience of a cross control landing


some pictures of the mesmerizing moments below that my px took

 

[murphey]

Very common to inform ATC that you're doing something other than going from Point A to Point B. They want to know that you'll be doing some sightseeing. Helps them separate other traffic in the area.

 

[MAKG1]

Nice observations, but I think you missed a few big ones.

Things look much closer at night than during the day, if they are lit. On a nice clear night, you can easily see a landing light 30 miles away, as well as a lit tower.

It's also much harder to judge flare height. Use soft field technique if possible.

1000 AGL is LOW. There can be TV towers much higher than that. They should be lit, but not always. It's also the legal minimum over "congested" areas.

While it's a good idea to tell Tower what you're doing in their airspace, approach controllers might want less detail. I often tell them "maneuvering near XXXX this altitude" or "direct YYYY."

As a suggestion, leave the autopilot OFF until you have that trim thing down. It will interfere with it. Trimming needs to become automatic.

Wind is usually calmer at night, but there can very easily be exceptions. 33 knots on the ground will get my attention, as it's uncomfortably close to stall speed if a big gust happens.

 

[labbadabba]

If he was within the controlled airspace he was just advising. I'll do the same if I'm flying over a friends house or something, "XYZ tower, Cessna N12345, 4 miles to your NW, one thousand-five hundred, doing a couple 360s and then transitioning to the North." I'll usually get something like, "Cessna, N12345, Roger, understand you are maneuvering 4 to the NW. Be advised there is landing traffic on Runway 18."

It's pretty informal. Who you are, who you're talking to, where you are, what you're doing. I've never had a problem doing anything like that in Delta airspace.

 

[labbadabba]

1000 AGL is LOW. There can be TV towers much higher than that. They should be lit, but not always. It's also the legal minimum over "congested" areas.
As a suggestion, leave the autopilot OFF until you have that trim thing down. It will interfere with it. Trimming needs to become automatic.

Yeah, AP on at 1,000 AGL over a congested area got my attention too. If I'm that low and manuevering, I'm hand flying for sure. I want to know the instant the airplane does anything I don't expect.

 

[Stearman]

You need to learn to "feel" the ball without seeing it. Between the nose of the airplane, the wingtip, and your butt you have all the information you need. It will take some work and time to learn the feel though.

The ball should just be a cross-check thing.

 

[WannFly]

Nice observations, but I think you missed a few big ones.

Things look much closer at night than during the day, if they are lit. On a nice clear night, you can easily see a landing light 30 miles away, as well as a lit tower.

It's also much harder to judge flare height. Use soft field technique if possible.

1000 AGL is LOW. There can be TV towers much higher than that. They should be lit, but not always. It's also the legal minimum over "congested" areas.

While it's a good idea to tell Tower what you're doing in their airspace, approach controllers might want less detail. I often tell them "maneuvering near XXXX this altitude" or "direct YYYY."

As a suggestion, leave the autopilot OFF until you have that trim thing down. It will interfere with it. Trimming needs to become automatic.

Wind is usually calmer at night, but there can very easily be exceptions. 33 knots on the ground will get my attention, as it's uncomfortably close to stall speed if a big gust happens.

Thanks @MAKG1, yeah i forgot to mention a few... it was very clear that night and i could see a few small town lit up 35-40 miles away. auto pilot was the idea of my CFI, i am guessing its because 1. he wanted me to enjoy the flight a bit 2. i dont do something stupid like not maintaining altitude while sightseeing. in any case, i dont like auto pilot much, i hate sitting and doing nothing... 1 reason i hate to fly commercial. i dont even use cruise control in my car 80% of times, even when i am traveling 2000 miles. i like the feel of what my machine is doing. a few other observations... its easy to loose the horizon/orientation when traveling away from lights into unlit areas, i had to bring my eyes in to figure out if i was level. finding the runway even after my CFI pointed it out was difficult, guess it gets better with time.

my area is flat as hell, i think the tallest building is like 10 stories high. G1000 was showing the TV tower in yellow while at 1000 AGL, but it was way out of our way. i dont think i will fly that low anytime soon.. not much alti to recover from anything

a great point on the flare height, but i am yet to do landings and right now i have no idea how to gauge the height without looking at the alti...

 

[WannFly]

Yeah, AP on at 1,000 AGL over a congested area got my attention too. If I'm that low and manuevering, I'm hand flying for sure. I want to know the instant the airplane does anything I don't expect.

in his defense, we started on AP, made few turns, but while doing any circling around, he was hand flying it.. but yeah all over the city until i got the controls while we were just exiting the populated area and i lost my horizon

 

[WannFly]

another very imp thing i learnt... the death grip in windy conditions just makes it worse

 

[jordane93]

Nice pictures! Looked like a cool flight.

 

[mscard88]

I didn't read anything you and your CFI did that was hazardous. You did fine. As you get further along in your training your CFI will get more in-depth about flying at night, and then of course you'll get your night flight training in with your CFI. I liked your pics too.

My advice? Do what your CFI teaches, not what MAKG thinks you should.

 

[flyingron]

Nice photos. Yeah, flights on a clear night over an urban area can be pretty spectacular.

Get used to the trim wheel. While on the 172 you can horse the thing around without it, it's much more important on other aircraft. Get into the habit, even in the skyhawk it will make your life easier in the long run.

 

[WannFly]

Nice photos. Yeah, flights on a clear night over an urban area can be pretty spectacular.

Get used to the trim wheel. While on the 172 you can horse the thing around without it, it's much more important on other aircraft. Get into the habit, even in the skyhawk it will make your life easier in the long run.

thats my plan for future lessons.. use trim as much as possible and save my muscles (everyone i know of thinks its fat, but since its inside my body, i know it better and i will call it muscle) for the gym

 

[WannFly]

I didn't read anything you and your CFI did that was hazardous. You did fine. As you get further along in your training your CFI will get more in-depth about flying at night, and then of course you'll get your night flight training in with your CFI. I liked your pics too.

My advice? Do what your CFI teaches, not what MAKG thinks you should.

yeah my CFI said upon landing that he didnt get into any training at all, jut wanted me to enjoy the flight and as a plus got some experience on cross wind landing and handling the plane in windy conditions, which i need to get used to... its ALWAYS windy around here

 

[GRG55]

Nice way to first experience night flight. And what it's like to have passengers along to share it.

 

[exncsurfer]

ok had my first night flight this week.

nice pictures, I felt like I was too busy during my night flight training to enjoy the scenery much, good idea going as a sight see. Did you notice many of those laser Christmas lights? I'm curious how annoying those are from the air, they're everywhere this year.

 

[WannFly]

nice pictures, I felt like I was too busy during my night flight training to enjoy the scenery much, good idea going as a sight see. Did you notice many of those laser Christmas lights? I'm curious how annoying those are from the air, they're everywhere this year.

Nopes didn't bother at all, saw a few of them aimed towords trees and houses, none that was pointed to the sky, but I can imagine it will be highly annoying and may even be dangerous if they were

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[RV10flyer]

Night flying with a full moon, clear cold night with snow on the ground is really nice. My night training was at 6,500'. Ask your CFI what to do with landing light if you have an engine out. Hehe.

 

[WannFly]

Night flying with a full moon, clear cold night with snow on the ground is really nice. My night training was at 6,500'. Ask your CFI what to do with landing light if you have an engine out. Hehe.

Man this is going to turn into a BRS thread now

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[exncsurfer]

Man this is going to turn into a BRS thread now

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No, I think that is a running joke, turn on your landing light, if you don't like what you see, turn it back off!

 

[WannFly]

No, I think that is a running joke, turn on your landing light, if you don't like what you see, turn it back off!

yeah I have read that a couple of times... but in all seriousness .. what DO you do on a engine failure at night? I guess there are some combinations better than others.. for example.. near a city or some kind of less populated area with some lights, shoot for a highway, soft field if you can figure that out that is.. if its over non-lighted areas.. over mountains.. just call it good and do a last steep spiral...and fly for the rest of your life

 

[Clark1961]

yeah I have read that a couple of times... but in all seriousness .. what DO you do on a engine failure at night? I guess there are some combinations better than others.. for example.. near a city or some kind of less populated area with some lights, shoot for a highway, soft field if you can figure that out that is.. if its over non-lighted areas.. over mountains.. just call it good and do a last steep spiral...and fly for the rest of your life

One good rule for single engine flying at night over mountains: just say no. There are times it might be okay such as snow cover, clear skies, and a full moon. Desperate pilots (freight dogs) maybe followed roads. Watch out for tunnels if you do this. I think fedex finally gave up on single engine over mountains when a caravan crashed after departing Aspen on the way to Denver.

Some folks plan night flights so they are nearly always within gliding distance of an airport. Not so easy to do in many parts of the country.

Over populous areas any open space is fair game. Golf courses and large parking lots are attractive because they usually don't have overhead wires or overpasses. Be sure to replace any divits if you take the golf course option, wouldn't want to **** off the club pro or the groundskeepers...

 

[denverpilot]

Trim: Just do it. More importantly you got a lesson in weight and balance, mostly balance. I assume you filled out a W&B for the flight beforehand. If not, do one loaded the
same way you were for this flight. Fail heavy? Near the right side of the chart?

Ball: You can both see out the nose when yaw is occurring but you have to be shown what to look for, and you can feel yaw in your butt. Both techniques can be taught through a few maneuvers. I suspect your instructor will get around to doing that sooner if you let them know the ball is an instrument you're fixating on. It's fairly rare after flying a while that you even need to look at it to know the aircraft isn't coordinated.

33 knots even straight down the runway is usually going to be a bit of a bumpy ride, if nothing else just from turbulence off of various ground structures and features.

To do a similar night sightseeing trip here would be exiting the Class Delta and working with Denver Approach to remain under the Class Bravo near downtown. Courtesy calls to the controller when a significant direction change or circling are about to happen, is just to let them know what you're up to, so they can help look for traffic in that new direction.

Night engine outs:

Fly it until you have no options and then fly it as slow and touch down as lightly as you can, if you can't see anything. Minimize impact forces.

If you have options, choose one and land.

Two CFIs I know have had three night engine outs at low level.

One was base to final... no brainer... just land.

One was departing the airport on a low simulated missed approach with an instrument student... and the engine nearly came apart, it sucked a valve and threw it through all of the cylinders. One got the brunt of it but the engine wasn't producing much other than wicked vibration instantly. They had the energy to turn and make the airport property (flat, relatively safe, inside the fenceline) and then was surprised he could squeeze out just enough energy left to make about a 40 degree turn at very low altitude and land on the runway.

The third landed on a large city street, and had to dodge lightpoles and force the airplane down before a traffic light. Aircraft did eventually hit a wingtip on a light pole and turned sideways at a very low speed.

All three humans involved in those, walked away.

Conversely, nearly two decades ago I was called out on a ground ELT search near the Pawnee National Grasslands. If you're unfamiliar, let's just say most it's flat. Real flat. And prairie grass. You couldn't ask for a better emergency landing spot.

What was found was a light twin that had a fuel problem (none left) and had glided down, landed gear up (pilot probably thought no gear meant he wouldn't snag anything and tumble) and it skidded to a stop straight ahead. Problem was, it must have not been flared and was descending too much at touchdown and the ground had been rained on recently and was soft. The nose dug in and the airplane decelerated hard. There was a skiff of light snow on the surface on top of the soft dirt.

Shouldn't have been decelerated hard enough to be fatal, but it was... because the aircraft owner had never bothered to retrofit the aircraft with shoulder harnesses.

Both occupants were deceased when the first search crew arrived, from blunt force trauma to the face and head and neck injuries.

$300 worth of shoulder harnesses (back then) and both the pilot and passenger would have climbed out and walked away.

The searcher who found them decided he didn't want to do SAR anymore after that.

Aircraft reported positively missing (lost off of radar) at roughly 10PM, found about 5-6AM at sunrise. The searcher who found them wasn't reached for his availability until around 1-2AM. Other searchers and the sheriff arrived only about 10-15 minutes after the initial searcher. Nothing anyone could do but take photos for the investigation and call the coroner.

So it's not always the landing was bad... but conditions and lack of a shoulder harness system led to two fatalities that didn't need to happen.

I'll have to see if I have any of the photos anywhere stashed... I think they're lost to the sands of time.

Mountains at night? Not smart. As someone else mentioned, don't. Cumulogranite reaches up and grabs airplanes in the dark fairly often. The ONLY dusk mountain crash I've been involved with here that resulted in everyone being alive, was landed upslope at dusk with just enough light to make out the slope and terrain. The pilot flared heartily with a little excess speed to handle what was essentially a short climb to match the "downward" speed of the aircraft to the slope.

Searchers were barely dispatched before dark and the one aircraft that made it up just happened to have a very well trained and qualified camera operator on board. His gear far outstripped what a normal crew would have.

ONE photo. One. During post-flight image processing revealed a blurry yellow-orange pinpoint light source, where none should be. Ground searchers were dispatched to that location after it was determined where it was via triangulation in the dark photo after serious enhancement, about three hours after the searchers landed.

They found the occupants of the aircraft huddled around a campfire. They were injured and cold, but pulled out of the backcountry alive around 4:30AM. The blurry light source, was the campfire.

People looking at the wreckage the next day from the air gave a very low probability that it would have been seen in daylight. And temperatures were low enough that it's questionable the occupants would have all survived another night out. Those folks crashed under a lucky star.

 

[LongRoadBob]

You need to learn to "feel" the ball without seeing it. Between the nose of the airplane, the wingtip, and your butt you have all the information you need. It will take some work and time to learn the feel though.

The ball should just be a cross-check thing.

I'm low time still, and it just dawned on me a little while back what you mention here. I'm still so focused on airspeed, and everything else I am not listening to my butt... but...I am aware that I need to. Not just that but also the sounds, the feel (for airspeed) and so much more. I hope and believe it will come with time.

But the main reason I am posting, I recently took a commercial flight with my wife, and though I cannot be sure I was correct in all my conclusions, I was REALLY noticing by Ass on the seat, that when we climbed, ascended, banked etc. it was like a whole new experience and as dumb as I am I kept asking my wife "don't you feel that? We were weightless there for a second" and "now we are banking left" etc.

Again I don't know if I was right, but it was so different than all my years on commercial flights. But I really want to start feeling when I am slipping or sliding, without the ball but just seat of the pants. I have no idea how I can develop that though. I guess just being more aware, and checking the ball.

And to the OP, REALLY nice photos, beautiful! I am looking forward to night flying some day, I can remember my father flying with me as passenger at night and I always loved that even more than daytime flying.

 

[MAKG1]

You shouldn't be able to feel bank angle if it's coordinated. What you can feel is roll acceleration. It's very easy to fool, and that's the source of VFR into IMC disorientation.

 

[Stearman]

I'm low time still, and it just dawned on me a little while back what you mention here. I'm still so focused on airspeed, and everything else I am not listening to my butt... but...I am aware that I need to. Not just that but also the sounds, the feel (for airspeed) and so much more. I hope and believe it will come with time.

But the main reason I am posting, I recently took a commercial flight with my wife, and though I cannot be sure I was correct in all my conclusions, I was REALLY noticing by Ass on the seat, that when we climbed, ascended, banked etc. it was like a whole new experience and as dumb as I am I kept asking my wife "don't you feel that? We were weightless there for a second" and "now we are banking left" etc.

Again I don't know if I was right, but it was so different than all my years on commercial flights. But I really want to start feeling when I am slipping or sliding, without the ball but just seat of the pants. I have no idea how I can develop that though. I guess just being more aware, and checking the ball.

And to the OP, REALLY nice photos, beautiful! I am looking forward to night flying some day, I can remember my father flying with me as passenger at night and I always loved that even more than daytime flying.

You're on the right road, my friend. Just keep thinking about it, keep it on your mind and be aware of it and it'll come. Airspeed is another one you can gauge by outside references, i.e. nose position.

Also, maybe it's just me, but I never really worry about airspeed unless I'm landing or on an XC flight. I won't get dangerously slow since I'm aware of pitch and power, but as far as whether I'm doing 60 or 65 (in the Cub)...I really don't care. Don't know if that's good or not though...

 

[WannFly]

Trim: Just do it. More importantly you got a lesson in weight and balance, mostly balance. I assume you filled out a W&B for the flight beforehand. If not, do one loaded the
same way you were for this flight. Fail heavy? Near the right side of the chart?

Ball: You can both see out the nose when yaw is occurring but you have to be shown what to look for, and you can feel yaw in your butt. Both techniques can be taught through a few maneuvers. I suspect your instructor will get around to doing that sooner if you let them know the ball is an instrument you're fixating on. It's fairly rare after flying a while that you even need to look at it to know the aircraft isn't coordinated.

33 knots even straight down the runway is usually going to be a bit of a bumpy ride, if nothing else just from turbulence off of various ground structures and features.

To do a similar night sightseeing trip here would be exiting the Class Delta and working with Denver Approach to remain under the Class Bravo near downtown. Courtesy calls to the controller when a significant direction change or circling are about to happen, is just to let them know what you're up to, so they can help look for traffic in that new direction.

Night engine outs:

Fly it until you have no options and then fly it as slow and touch down as lightly as you can, if you can't see anything. Minimize impact forces.

If you have options, choose one and land.

Two CFIs I know have had three night engine outs at low level.

One was base to final... no brainer... just land.

One was departing the airport on a low simulated missed approach with an instrument student... and the engine nearly came apart, it sucked a valve and threw it through all of the cylinders. One got the brunt of it but the engine wasn't producing much other than wicked vibration instantly. They had the energy to turn and make the airport property (flat, relatively safe, inside the fenceline) and then was surprised he could squeeze out just enough energy left to make about a 40 degree turn at very low altitude and land on the runway.

The third landed on a large city street, and had to dodge lightpoles and force the airplane down before a traffic light. Aircraft did eventually hit a wingtip on a light pole and turned sideways at a very low speed.

All three humans involved in those, walked away.

Conversely, nearly two decades ago I was called out on a ground ELT search near the Pawnee National Grasslands. If you're unfamiliar, let's just say most it's flat. Real flat. And prairie grass. You couldn't ask for a better emergency landing spot.

What was found was a light twin that had a fuel problem (none left) and had glided down, landed gear up (pilot probably thought no gear meant he wouldn't snag anything and tumble) and it skidded to a stop straight ahead. Problem was, it must have not been flared and was descending too much at touchdown and the ground had been rained on recently and was soft. The nose dug in and the airplane decelerated hard. There was a skiff of light snow on the surface on top of the soft dirt.

Shouldn't have been decelerated hard enough to be fatal, but it was... because the aircraft owner had never bothered to retrofit the aircraft with shoulder harnesses.

Both occupants were deceased when the first search crew arrived, from blunt force trauma to the face and head and neck injuries.

$300 worth of shoulder harnesses (back then) and both the pilot and passenger would have climbed out and walked away.

The searcher who found them decided he didn't want to do SAR anymore after that.

Aircraft reported positively missing (lost off of radar) at roughly 10PM, found about 5-6AM at sunrise. The searcher who found them wasn't reached for his availability until around 1-2AM. Other searchers and the sheriff arrived only about 10-15 minutes after the initial searcher. Nothing anyone could do but take photos for the investigation and call the coroner.

So it's not always the landing was bad... but conditions and lack of a shoulder harness system led to two fatalities that didn't need to happen.

I'll have to see if I have any of the photos anywhere stashed... I think they're lost to the sands of time.

Mountains at night? Not smart. As someone else mentioned, don't. Cumulogranite reaches up and grabs airplanes in the dark fairly often. The ONLY dusk mountain crash I've been involved with here that resulted in everyone being alive, was landed upslope at dusk with just enough light to make out the slope and terrain. The pilot flared heartily with a little excess speed to handle what was essentially a short climb to match the "downward" speed of the aircraft to the slope.

Searchers were barely dispatched before dark and the one aircraft that made it up just happened to have a very well trained and qualified camera operator on board. His gear far outstripped what a normal crew would have.

ONE photo. One. During post-flight image processing revealed a blurry yellow-orange pinpoint light source, where none should be. Ground searchers were dispatched to that location after it was determined where it was via triangulation in the dark photo after serious enhancement, about three hours after the searchers landed.

They found the occupants of the aircraft huddled around a campfire. They were injured and cold, but pulled out of the backcountry alive around 4:30AM. The blurry light source, was the campfire.

People looking at the wreckage the next day from the air gave a very low probability that it would have been seen in daylight. And temperatures were low enough that it's questionable the occupants would have all survived another night out. Those folks crashed under a lucky star.

Thanks. I did a basic and rudimentary W&B calculation, just to figure out how much fuel we can carry. I am yet to grasp the whole CG calculation and have mentioned that to my CFI.

 

[paflyer]

1) Nice pix.
2) You should be asking your CFI the questions in your OP, that's what you're paying him for.
3) IMNSHO, primary students shouldn't be flying around behind glass.

 

[WannFly]

1) Nice pix.
2) You should be asking your CFI the questions in your OP, that's what you're paying him for.
3) IMNSHO, primary students shouldn't be flying around behind glass.

I agree, G1000 is nothing but distraction rt now and if I end up buying a plane that's gonna be a 6 pack, so a transition training is in order

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