First annual for my 172 - need new engine!

any good engine builder can build a better overhaul than lycoming. If you want new tolerances, ask for it. by the way, only a lycoming rebuilt engine will be to new factory tolerances. a overhaul will be built to "We measure against Lycoming Factory tolerances that exceed field requirements" notice they do not say "NEW" only that they exceed field tolerances. so their overhauls may be between new and field tolerances.

my builder built my last engine to new tolerances, new cyls, and anything else I wanted for a price a whole lot less than lycoming wanted.
just because they are the people that made it,doesn't mean that they rebuild them better.

to the OP. please tell your A&P to put a rag under that rod or secure it as per the overhaul manual. setting the rod on the case is a good way to put a nick on it that can cause a stress riser that can lead to rod failure. this is straight from the lycoming overhaul manual.

CAUTION
After the removal of a cylinder and piston the connecting rod must be supported to prevent damage to the rod and crankcase. This is drone by supporting each connecting rod with torque hold down plate ST-222, rubberbands, (discarded cylinder base on seal rings) looped around the cylinder base studs or using plates as shown in figure6-2
 
unsafervguy said:
any good engine builder can build a better overhaul than lycoming. If you want new tolerances, ask for it.
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Sure, but the average aircraft maintenance shop won't have all the proper machining equipment to do that. It takes a shop full of expensive stuff.

New tolerances will often mean more new parts, too.

I actually paid less for those Lyc factory overhauls than for overhauls in the same major shop/dealer I bought the Lycs through.
 
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Little tip I got from one of the folks at a major engine shop.

If you are trading your engine in ; you and your Tech may want to evaluate

your core.

Big shops don’t care about a new harness , mags, plugs etc.

Much of this is just “ground up “ or trashed.

They are generally required to do the accessories as well if they call it an

Overhaul.

You may want to swap those mags with 100 hrs since new for some ancient junk.

Coils and other parts are $$$

Ditto for plugs etc.

Doing this just might help you with install costs.
 
OP: If you haven't already give, the Penn Yan Superhawk conversion a look:
https://www.pennyanaero.com/penn-yan-aero-stcs
https://www.pennyanaero.com/lycoming-o-320-superhawk

From what I have seen Penn Yan has the best overhaul warranty and the overhaul/conversion of your O-320-E2D to an O-360-A4M may not be a lot more than an overhaul of your O-320. I'm a year and about 100 hrs out of an overhaul by Penn Yan of my O-360-A4M and so far I'm pleased with the results. I don't know about the superhawk quote, but the overhaul quotes are available immediately after filling in the info...
 
idahoflier said:
OP: If you haven't already give, the Penn Yan Superhawk conversion a look:
https://www.pennyanaero.com/penn-yan-aero-stcs
https://www.pennyanaero.com/lycoming-o-320-superhawk

From what I have seen Penn Yan has the best overhaul warranty and the overhaul/conversion of your O-320-E2D to an O-360-A4M may not be a lot more than an overhaul of your O-320. I'm a year and about 100 hrs out of an overhaul by Penn Yan of my O-360-A4M and so far I'm pleased with the results. I don't know about the superhawk quote, but the overhaul quotes are available immediately after filling in the info...
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I did get the Pen Yan quotes. The super hawk option is about a $14k (minimum) upgrade from what my shop quoted to overhaul my O320. It would probably increase the value some, but for my mission it’s pretty hard to justify that kinda price....
 
Did PYAS quote include installation or just engine exchange?

There are mods required that take time and $$.

Nothing drastic but you want apples to apples.

Always easier to stay with what you have.

On the other hand I’ve never talked to anyone wishing they had less power.
 
If you are going to look at Penn Yan also check AirPlanes -- I had a K with the 180 O360 and it was wonderful. Also verify which prop you use. some have 0 tolerance for damage where others can take a little off the tip on a minor ground strike --- BTDT :(
 
Be careful with conversions. They're not all plug-and-play. I spent a lot of shop time installing an Air Plains conversion in a 180. That time is not cheap.
 
Hangontight said:
I did get the Pen Yan quotes. The super hawk option is about a $14k (minimum) upgrade from what my shop quoted to overhaul my O320. It would probably increase the value some, but for my mission it’s pretty hard to justify that kinda price....
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I'll bet Penn Yan can also do your HC STC during overhaul. Penn Yan did the high compression STC for me during my overhaul. They were quite familiar with my particular STC, and had no issues with complying with the paperwork. The hardest part for me was getting the paperwork from the STC owner. Turnaround was really quick, and the engine has been trouble-free. Penn Yan has provided all the replacement cylinders for my planes, and I replaced nary a one before overhaul in 35 years of ownership.
 
Holy Backlog Batman! Lycoming is out 12-14 weeks, Pen Yan is out 9-10 weeks. My shop has an exchange motor that will be ready in 3-4 weeks. Seems like everything is pushed way out right now.

The 180 conversion is too much money for me. Plus I don’t need it for 95% of the flying I do.

I’m going w/ a new limit rebuild from my shop w/ a RAM 160hp STC. Price, timing, and multiple other variables lead this to be the best option for my project.
 
Hangontight said:
Holy Backlog Batman! Lycoming is out 12-14 weeks, Pen Yan is out 9-10 weeks. My shop has an exchange motor that will be ready in 3-4 weeks. Seems like everything is pushed way out right now.
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Doesn't sound that much different than normal. Engine shops, and even Lycoming and Continental, generally don't have engines just sitting on the shelf waiting for you to call and buy them.

Sometimes the timeframe/need is the deciding factor on what to go with.
 
Is your shop an Engine O/h facility?

Columbia is not that far from PYAS also.

The engines I’ve seen from them were fine and they were easy to deal with.

worth a call.
 
How long are you planning on keeping the plane? If a while, seriously look at the 180 conversion. If you haven't yet, go fly a superhawk and then make a more informed choice.
 
Whelp, we split the cases today. Cam failure, several lobes worn way down, pitting on tappet (sp?) faces. The guys in the shop took me through each piece and part of my engine which was really cool to see.

Also found out that my propeller is out of serviceable limits so it is junk. Will be getting a new one.

On the plus side, my wallet will be so light when I get my airplane back that I will have much more useful load for hauling gear & friends! See, there's a silver lining to every cloud.
 
Sorry to hear - but you gave a good attitude - will be a great plane when you get it fixed up. Pre buy inspection and oil analysis didn’t detect anything?
 
Hangontight said:
Whelp, we split the cases today. Cam failure, several lobes worn way down, pitting on tappet (sp?) faces. The guys in the shop took me through each piece and part of my engine which was really cool to see.

Also found out that my propeller is out of serviceable limits so it is junk. Will be getting a new one.

On the plus side, my wallet will be so light when I get my airplane back that I will have much more useful load for hauling gear & friends! See, there's a silver lining to every cloud.
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Did they pop the plug out of the front of the crank to check the bore for corrosion pitting?

Cam and lifter replacement is normal for an overhaul.
 
AA5Bman said:
I am always for more horsepower, but I would think really hard about losing the ability to run car gas - high compression cylinders generally don’t allow it. Avgas has been under attack for a long long time, and this administration will not be friendly to leaded fuel, count on it. Being able to run auto gas could be a huge benefit long term.
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Just as a point of reference, the Petersen mogas STC is available for the higher-compression 160 hp O-320-D3G in my Piper Warrior II, just not for a 150 hp O-320 that was later converted to 160 hp (same compression, but probably not enough of them out there to make it worth Petersen's effort to cover them with the STC).
 
David Megginson said:
Just as a point of reference, the Petersen mogas STC is available for the higher-compression 160 hp O-320-D3G in my Piper Warrior II, just not for a 150 hp O-320 that was later converted to 160 hp (same compression, but probably not enough of them out there to make it worth Petersen's effort to cover them with the STC).
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That can be subjective depending on how the airframe STCs were written and the engine conversion was performed. Your comment illustrates the minefield that someone would be tiptoeing through to try and operate legally on car gas when there is a conversion involved though. It is something people must be aware of.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Did they pop the plug out of the front of the crank to check the bore for corrosion pitting?

Cam and lifter replacement is normal for an overhaul.
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That will happen on Monday. Fingers crossed that it’s a serviceable crank.....we shall see. I can only take so much bad news everyday!
 
Hangontight said:
Holy Backlog Batman! Lycoming is out 12-14 weeks...
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I ordered a Lycoming-rebuilt IO-360 on November 13, 2020. Expected ship date was quoted as February 16, 2021. Two weeks ago, they slipped that date to March 2, 2021. If they actually ship it then, I won't get it until 16-17 weeks after the order was placed.
 
NavAir said:
I ordered a Lycoming-rebuilt IO-360 on November 13, 2020. Expected ship date was quoted as February 16, 2021. Two weeks ago, they slipped that date to March 2, 2021. If they actually ship it then, I won't get it until 16-17 weeks after the order was placed.
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Unfortunately, that seems Par for the course for the way Lycoming operates.
 
I like to stop by and yack with my A&P when he has SOMEONE ELSES engine torn apart for field overhauls.

During my annuals, when he calls, I ask if I should sit down. Usually he says "you've heard bigger numbers before" but this year he said "you might want to." Wasn't too bad though, just sending the carbonator out for overhaul.

Nothing like what you've got going there. THAT I would definitely need to be sitting down.
 
mondtster said:
Unfortunately, that seems Par for the course for the way Lycoming operates.
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It was never that long when I was buying engines from them. I suspect that Covid has messed them up, just like a lot of other industries.

Aside from that, they don't build that many engines anymore, and there are far too many models too build and keep an inventory on them. Corrosion in storage is a factor. They've been run for 20 minutes on a dyno, then the oil drained and the engine flooded with storage oil to try to keep any residual crankcase/cylinder moisture from starting corrosion. Pull the bottom sparkplugs out and oil runs out of the cylinders for a long time.

An IO-360 isn't just an IO-360. From the TCDS for that engine:

upload_2021-2-20_11-59-58.png

And that's just the IO-360 series, not the carbureted O-360 series or the 235s or 320s or the 390s or 540s or 720s or the GO-435s, many of them O- or IO- or AEIO- or TIO- or LTIO- or HO- or HIO- engines. Hundreds of models that most owners are completely unaware of. How'd you like to try to keep stock on even the most popular 30% of those?
 
Dan Thomas said:
It was never that long when I was buying engines from them. I suspect that Covid has messed them up, just like a lot of other industries.
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Perhaps, but Lycoming has done the bait and switch on me three times in the last 5 years. They give you a date to produce the parts then they keep extending it until you get tired of waiting and go elsewhere. The last time we waited 8 months before pulling the plug (pre-covid) and going elsewhere.

Most of my dealings with Lycoming are for parts, not whole engines, and most of the time they’re ok. But they have this habit of not telling the real story in some cases and it is really irritating when you’re trying to run a shop and keep people happy yet every time you call it is an additional 4-6 weeks. Hopefully the guy having trouble getting an engine from them gets his sooner rather than later.
 
So, talked to the Lycoming rep today. My engine should ship tomorrow. Looking like 4 months from date of order to delivery for an IO-360-M1A (assuming). That is a long time. My mood should improve when it arrives and I can install it.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Things change. From https://www.lycoming.com/services/overhaul-engines .........

We stay true to any price quoted regardless of the condition of your Lycoming core. Return your like-model complete operating engine within a specified period for full core value without experiencing hidden freight costs, penalties, or chargebacks.
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CAUTION:

IF it sounds too good to be true... Re-read the first part of the second sentence: "Return your like-model OPERATING engine..." I've personally seen times when they gave ZERO core credit for an engine that was obviously disassembled, inspected and then the owner determined they wanted a replacement factory engine. The mechanic reassembled the core and shipped it off... BUT!--The owner ate the core charge (I think it was $16k for an O-320-E2D core at the time). Hopefully this was an extreme case, but tread lightly...

V/r,
 
@Hangontight you are not alone. I recall a fellow on one of the chat boards who sought and received all sorts of advice on buying an airplane. He too bought himself a Skyhawk, and went to use it to go see all the internet friends who had advised him to buy it. I think he wound up overhauling the engine away from home. Real nightmare, lots of AMUs. Good news is once you're done you'll have an airplane with a new engine.

One fo my friends has been flying his Skyhawk so long he's put 2 engines in it.
 
thomasdr72 said:
CAUTION:

IF it sounds too good to be true... Re-read the first part of the second sentence: "Return your like-model OPERATING engine..." I've personally seen times when they gave ZERO core credit for an engine that was obviously disassembled, inspected and then the owner determined they wanted a replacement factory engine. The mechanic reassembled the core and shipped it off... BUT!--The owner ate the core charge (I think it was $16k for an O-320-E2D core at the time). Hopefully this was an extreme case, but tread lightly...

V/r,
Click to expand...
I was aware of that, having bought numerous Lyc factory engines. That "operating condition" is to prevent shysters from sending a boxful of forever-unserviceble parts from several engines and calling it a core. And if it's been disassembled, corrosion sets in quickly.
 
Don’t forget which engine is used and new .......
 
Since they look so similar, I considered just spray painting the old one with a new coat of Lycoming Gray paint and reinstalling. That should work, right? ;)
 
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