Finding other traffic

N

NoBShere

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
389
Display Name
Display name:
NoBShere
So I have had my ticket for about a year. When flying with my wife, she can spot traffic much better than I can. While getting my complex endorsement a couple weeks ago, atc called out some traffic that we (cfi and I) should have been able to see. My cfi made a similar comment, his wife spots traffic better. It got me wondering, is it because the Mrs. is looking outside the whole time where as I am moving my eyes from outside to inside to check instruments, etc and it is just an eye focus exercise?

Thanks for the thoughts. I have been trying the scanning techniques that I discussed with cfi during ppl training. What's kind of interesting, while driving, I can normally read road signs before she can.

Happy Labor Day weekend everyone!
 
Try not to scan back and forth too quickly. I just do what the FAA recommends and take chunks of the scan and stare for a few seconds before moving to the next sector. It works most of the time.
 
Agreed with breaking the sky up.

I also think the OP has a point, I notice that my traffic scan suffers if I fly lots of IFR/IMC, in the summer months when I'm VFR lots of times I feel my spotting ability is a little more on point.

Always good to go VFR and keep eyes outside when you can.
 
My wife see's traffic very well and usually before me. May be better eyes, not distracted by flying, focus always outside, I dunno, maybe it's survival instinct, lol. I love having her along except when she "calls" traffic that is like a 747 10 miles away, lol. We're working on where the important stuff is.
 
Our peripheral vision is better at detecting motion than direct vision. That is why staring at a moving traffic target doesn't work too well.
 
What are your acuities?
Since I became 20/15, I can see traffic before most anyone I have in the cockpit with me. I know, I know, it probably won't last. And I am not bragging, it's just an observation that 20/15 has proved to be a lot more useful to me than the 20/20 I used to have. All corrected.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
What are your acuities?
Since I became 20/15, I can see traffic before most anyone I have in the cockpit with me. I know, I know, it probably won't last. And I am not bragging, it's just an observation that 20/15 has proved to be a lot more useful to me than the 20/20 I used to have. All corrected.
Click to expand...

How did you "become 20/15"? Is it the result of surgery, new corrective lenses, or?
I have better than 20/20 but still find my peripheral vision is far better at detecting other traffic motion.
 
I stopped....oh, nvm.

Dunno. Just happened. AME even removed the restriction from my medical.
Believing in karma, I await -with baited breath- some health calamity.
 
I've been on a plane with four pilots and not a damn one of us ever saw the opposite direction traffic until it passed 100' below our wingtip at about an 1/8 of a mile.

I chalked it up to there being damn near no relative motion until he was alongside.

Human eyes are better at seeing motion then slightly expanding dots.

It doesn't even matter that two of he four were wearing progressive bifocals. Heh.
 
When the tower says I'm number three or number four for landing, I like to work backwards somewhat. No. 1 is often going to be touching down, No. 2, base to final, etc. It's just easier for me to spot them this way. What's crazy is how much lateral difference there is with other aircraft on downwind...some with tight patterns, others imagining they're flying B-17s. You really need to do the wide-angle scan here.
 
Last edited:
I think that people frequently look too high or too low. Assume traffic 500 ft above or below at a mile (6000 ft) and calculate the angle (about 5 degrees unless my quick math is wrong).
Also, glance at the ground at about the distance called to get your eyes focused at that distance.
 
It's really hard to see small planes flying- that's the conclusion I've come to with 5 years and 300 plus hours of flying! I often fly alone and, with no one but myself to rely on, even when I fly with passengers I usually find most people can't see small planes until they are practically right close by. I love when ATC says, "N12345, traffic 12 o'clock, 10 miles opposite direction 1,000 feet above you is a skyhawk." That's a clear sign that the controller has never flown in a small plane. I have about as much chance of seeing that traffic, as I do of an elephant climbing into the plane while cruising at 4,500.!"
 
Thanks for the replies. Sounds like I can keep flying!
 
jspilot said:
It's really hard to see small planes flying- that's the conclusion I've come to with 5 years and 300 plus hours of flying! I often fly alone and, with no one but myself to rely on, even when I fly with passengers I usually find most people can't see small planes until they are practically right close by. I love when ATC says, "N12345, traffic 12 o'clock, 10 miles opposite direction 1,000 feet above you is a skyhawk." That's a clear sign that the controller has never flown in a small plane. I have about as much chance of seeing that traffic, as I do of an elephant climbing into the plane while cruising at 4,500.!"
Click to expand...


I think maybe they say the type for other reasons, a C150 10 miles at 3oclock heading towards me isn't much concern, a Falcon 10 miles out heading towards me might make me opt to select a different altitude.
 
What isn't the Mrs. better at? ;)


Of all of the traffic, I find Robinson heli's the most difficult to spot. Flew up to GKT a little while ago and they have Heli training on field using Robinson aircraft and I had the hardest time spotting them. Bells and EC-135's no problem.
 
jspilot said:
It's really hard to see small planes flying- that's the conclusion I've come to with 5 years and 300 plus hours of flying! I often fly alone and, with no one but myself to rely on, even when I fly with passengers I usually find most people can't see small planes until they are practically right close by. I love when ATC says, "N12345, traffic 12 o'clock, 10 miles opposite direction 1,000 feet above you is a skyhawk." That's a clear sign that the controller has never flown in a small plane. I have about as much chance of seeing that traffic, as I do of an elephant climbing into the plane while cruising at 4,500.!"
Click to expand...


So would you rather the controller wait until you are 1 mile apart? This controller (who owns and flies a small plane) will give you traffic to get you looking instead of waiting until the last minute. With heavy traffic I need to make the calls when I can because some pilot will want to give me his whole flight plan when you and the traffic you about to prang into are close enough to smell each others deodorant.

That said, I wouldn't give traffic on someone who is 1,000 feet above you because it isn't required.
 
Timbeck2 said:
So would you rather the controller wait until you are 1 mile apart? This controller (who owns and flies a small plane) will give you traffic to get you looking instead of waiting until the last minute. With heavy traffic I need to make the calls when I can because some pilot will want to give me his whole flight plan when you and the traffic you about to prang into are close enough to smell each others deodorant.

That said, I wouldn't give traffic on someone who is 1,000 feet above you because it isn't required.
Click to expand...

My response was in response to a thread about how hard it is to spot traffic and was using said example as an example of how hard it is to spot traffic far away. I appreciate all the work the controllers do but sometimes the odds of seeing traffic far away is slim to none
 
I get it but wouldn't you rather know about traffic that is 10 miles away vs 1 mile? Either way, the controller gets blamed for giving traffic too far away or waiting till the last minute. The idea is to say, "hey, there's traffic out there that could be a factor so look for it Mr. See and Avoid. ;) As I said before, it is a helpless feeling when I see two targets converge and another verbose pilot takes forever to tell me what he needs, tying up the frequency and preventing me from doing what controllers do, which is separate traffic and issue safety advisories.

<---- knows fully well that traffic is sometimes hard to see but also see both sides of the pilot/controller fence.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I get it but wouldn't you rather know about traffic that is 10 miles away vs 1 mile? Either way, the controller gets blamed for giving traffic too far away or waiting till the last minute. The idea is to say, "hey, there's traffic out there that could be a factor so look for it Mr. See and Avoid. ;) As I said before, it is a helpless feeling when I see two targets converge and another verbose pilot takes forever to tell me what he needs, tying up the frequency and preventing me from doing what controllers do, which is separate traffic and issue safety advisories.

<---- knows fully well that traffic is sometimes hard to see but also see both sides of the pilot/controller fence.
Click to expand...

Yeah this is a terrific point. I never thought that the controller may want me looking out for the traffic so as to not wait until the last minute. It makes perfect sense to me that ATC wants me looking out for the traffic before it gets too close. I always appreciate that the controller is looking out for me but in reality, the likelihood of finding the traffic any more than maybe 3 miles away just seems so hard( unless it's a jet or other large plane.) I almost never call traffic in sight until it's less than 5 miles away( maybe I'm just really bad at finding traffic but I don't know!)

Either way, I have nothing but respect for controllers so I always say "thanks for the help today" when changing frequencies and sincerely mean it.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I get it but wouldn't you rather know about traffic that is 10 miles away vs 1 mile? Either way, the controller gets blamed for giving traffic too far away or waiting till the last minute. The idea is to say, "hey, there's traffic out there that could be a factor so look for it Mr. See and Avoid. ;) As I said before, it is a helpless feeling when I see two targets converge and another verbose pilot takes forever to tell me what he needs, tying up the frequency and preventing me from doing what controllers do, which is separate traffic and issue safety advisories.

<---- knows fully well that traffic is sometimes hard to see but also see both sides of the pilot/controller fence.
Click to expand...

Whatever. Stupid controllers. If you want to be useful, make the other traffic bigger so we can see it! Better yet, just get it out of my way. Then no conflicts exist. =D
 
ircphoenix said:
Whatever. Stupid controllers. If you want to be useful, make the other traffic bigger so we can see it! Better yet, just get it out of my way. Then no conflicts exist. =D
Click to expand...

Timbeck2 said:
If I were able to make things bigger, traffic would be pretty far down on the list my friend. ;)
Click to expand...

You can make it bigger. Just vector it toward him. Hehehe. Give the man what he asked for! ;)
 
I think if we're really honest about it, the only reason we're not running into each other left and right is the sky is really big and airplanes are really small. I don't know how many times I've had a controller telling me exactly where to look for traffic I really should be able to see but never actually do.
 
cowman said:
I think if we're really honest about it, the only reason we're not running into each other left and right is the sky is really big and airplanes are really small. I don't know how many times I've had a controller telling me exactly where to look for traffic I really should be able to see but never actually do.
Click to expand...

It's 'cause some a-hole 60 years ago decided WHITE would be the best color to paint airplanes so they could be easily spotted against the light blue sky.

Which explains why you can ALWAYS see the black/dark gray/dark green planes from 10 miles out, but can NEVER see the white ones.
 
Ryanb said:
Of all of the traffic, I find Robinson heli's the most difficult to spot. Flew up to GKT a little while ago and they have Heli training on field using Robinson aircraft and I had the hardest time spotting them. Bells and EC-135's no problem.
Click to expand...
Yeah, helicopters are the worst. They really blend into the cityscape, but fortunately they're well below our altitudes most of the time.

The white/orange fire rescue planes stand out nicely. Been seeing a lot of them on recent flights, including the DC-10 based out of So Cal Logistics. So weird to see a DC-10 that low along the base of the mountains (en route back to base to get another load of retardant).
 
Timbeck2 said:
I get it but wouldn't you rather know about traffic that is 10 miles away vs 1 mile? Either way, the controller gets blamed for giving traffic too far away or waiting till the last minute. The idea is to say, "hey, there's traffic out there that could be a factor so look for it Mr. See and Avoid. ;) As I said before, it is a helpless feeling when I see two targets converge and another verbose pilot takes forever to tell me what he needs, tying up the frequency and preventing me from doing what controllers do, which is separate traffic and issue safety advisories.

<---- knows fully well that traffic is sometimes hard to see but also see both sides of the pilot/controller fence.
Click to expand...

I agree, excellent point.

I always think of ATC telling me traffic is 10 miles away as a "Hey, heads up" and I give them a quick "Thanks, looking for that traffic." I would much rather have them tell me far in advance even if I never see the traffic or it is never an issue because the other guy changed headings than to find out just before he arrives.

Simple math, even if I'm puttering along at 120mph in the Cherokee trainer and the other guy is headed towards me at the same 120mph, it's a combined 240mph. If ATC tells me when we're 10 miles apart that gives me 2.5 minutes to find him before we are passing each other. If ATC waits until we are 5 miles apart to tell me it's just 75 seconds before we are passing each other. (And that's assuming we are both in slow planes) Not much margin for error when there may be that long winded guy hogging the radio. I appreciate ATC taking the time to look out for us VFR guys and provide flight following, even pointing out the ones we will never spot.
 
My wife is much better at spotting traffic than me. Her eyesight is just better than mine. However, when we were first dating she would call out "traffic" or "there's a plane", I'd ask, "Where?". Her answer: "over there". I would say again "Where?" She would say again, albeit louder, "over THERE!". She still does that occasionally, but mostly uses clock position now.

I don't know about anyone else, but 1.5 to 2 miles is about my limit for spotting a small GA plane on a clear day. I do like to be told about traffic further away so I know what direction to look for them.
 
All I have to do to get much better, instantly, at spotting traffic is not be the one flying.

I dunno about y'all, but the stress (workload, distraction, call it whatever you want) of having to fly the plane, listen to ATC, manage all the other little systems on the plane, find the airport I've never been to, etc, etc, etc tends to not only consume the time I'd spending looking for the traffic but also seems to increase the urgency of it. Not much, I'm not panicked or anything, but enough that it makes it more difficult to calm down and -look-.
 
I catch myself focusing on looking for 'called' traffic every now and then and have to remind myself to keep the scan going for other traffic that hasn't been 'called.'
 
ircphoenix said:
It's 'cause some a-hole 60 years ago decided WHITE would be the best color to paint airplanes so they could be easily spotted against the light blue sky.

Which explains why you can ALWAYS see the black/dark gray/dark green planes from 10 miles out, but can NEVER see the white ones.
Click to expand...

Ever try to spot a dark aircraft at a LOWER altitude? Even worse, crashed on a forested hillside?
 
pburger said:
My wife is much better at spotting traffic than me. Her eyesight is just better than mine. However, when we were first dating she would call out "traffic" or "there's a plane", I'd ask, "Where?". Her answer: "over there". I would say again "Where?" She would say again, albeit louder, "over THERE!". She still does that occasionally, but mostly uses clock position now.

I don't know about anyone else, but 1.5 to 2 miles is about my limit for spotting a small GA plane on a clear day. I do like to be told about traffic further away so I know what direction to look for them.
Click to expand...

If you want a lesson in humility, put a kid in the right seat.

I find CAP cadets spotting traffic before I do, routinely. Of course it varies with the kid, but a lot of them are really good traffic spotters, even against cityscapes.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top