Finally come around to the idea of a Panel mount GPS, but..

[Morgan3820]

It would be nice to file direct or drive an autopilot, maybe some help with approaches and departures. But looking at the cost of an annual Jeppeson data subscription gives me pause. I know that to be legal for IFR approaches the data needs to be updated every 28 days. 0.5-0.8 AMUs every year? Is that correct or am I missing something.
I see that there is a one time upload for not too much, but then you're only legal for 28 days, correct?
Of those that have and use a approach certified GPS (was or not was) update every 28 days?

 

[frfly172]

Your paying for a yearly subscription,no reason not to update.

 

[UngaWunga]

How about swapping cards with someone else, sharing a subscription? Swap every month, worst case you're a month out. But $300 vs $150 isn't a huge saving in plane-costs...

 

[gsengle]

It would be nice to file direct or drive an autopilot, maybe some help with approaches and departures. But looking at the cost of an annual Jeppeson data subscription gives me pause. I know that to be legal for IFR approaches the data needs to be updated every 28 days. 0.5-0.8 AMUs every year? Is that correct or am I missing something.
I see that there is a one time upload for not too much, but then you're only legal for 28 days, correct?
Of those that have and use a approach certified GPS (was or not was) update every 28 days?

It's way less, just buy for your half of the country...


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[coloradobluesky]

It's always been a hassle to up to date with charts. It's not just the cost, it's the trouble.

 

[tsts4]

How about swapping cards with someone else, sharing a subscription? Swap every month, worst case you're a month out. But $300 vs $150 isn't a huge saving in plane-costs...

Doesn't that depend on what system you have as to whether that's actually doable, legalities aside? For example I'm pretty sure for the GTNs that the databases are linked to each individual GTN serial number.

 

[gsengle]

It's always been a hassle to up to date with charts. It's not just the cost, it's the trouble.

So only do it before IFR flights


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[Checkout_my_Six]

Doesn't that depend on what system you have as to whether that's actually doable, legalities aside? For example I'm pretty sure for the GTNs that the databases are linked to each individual GTN serial number.

it's worked for the GNS530W....I've swapped several times with no issues. I find someone who is updating and swap with their old card. So I start a month out....which is fine with me.

I try and update once a year or there about. My approaches don't change all that much. As long as my chart is older than my SW update I'm good to file and shoot.

 

[tsts4]

it's worked for the GNS530W....I've swapped several times with no issues. I try and update once a year or there about. My approaches don't change all that much. As long as my chart is older than my SW update I'm good to file and shoot.

I have zero experience with GNS boxes so defer to your expertise, but I have a GTN 650 and I'm pretty confident you can't swap cards between different GTNs.

 

[RotorDude]

I must be missing something. Before the digital/GPS age, I used to pay Jepps a few hundred bucks (don't recall the final price) for just my part of the country. Now you can pay Garmin just $300 for complete US approach plus enroute ("navigation") coverage (for a year). You can also get (and print) free online copies of the plates you need, and/or get them on a tablet.
If you want the full bells-and-whistles coverage, then sure, you can pay and get that too. I personally also get the obstacles, terrain, safe taxi, etc. But those are not mandatory for IFR flight, and they didn't exist at all in the old days.
So as bottom line, you now have much more for much less than before, but if you want to splurge, the sky is the limit.

 

[tsts4]

Garmin database pricing is available here: https://fly.garmin.com/fly-garmin/support/pricing

For the GTNs, all of the databases are available as single updates and most as a subscription. For comparison sake, a single US Nav data (Garmin) update is $129 vs. $299 for a subscription. The same US Nav data for a GTN from Jeppensen is $155 for a single update and $465 for a subscription. The prices go up from there as you add coverage.

 

[GRG55]

I have zero experience with GNS boxes so defer to your expertise, but I have a GTN 650 and I'm pretty confident you can't swap cards between different GTNs.

So if one installs a dual 750/650 combination for redundancy it requires 2 subscriptions for the same plane? Or does the cross fill cover everything?

 

[bradg33]

I try and update once a year or there about. My approaches don't change all that much. As long as my chart is older than my SW update I'm good to file and shoot.

Under the standard 530W AFMS language, just because the approach hasn't changed doesn't make it legal to shoot if the database is expired. The language from the form AFMS states:

"“GPS”, “or GPS”, and “RNAV (GPS)” instrument approaches using the Garmin navigation system are prohibited unless the flight crew verifies and uses the current navigation database."

There are some GPS units out there with AFMSs that permit the kind of operation you're suggesting, but the GNS530W isn't one of them.

 

[mondtster]

How about swapping cards with someone else, sharing a subscription? Swap every month, worst case you're a month out. But $300 vs $150 isn't a huge saving in plane-costs...

A friend of mine does that. He owns enough airplanes with Garmin boxes in them that he gets one subscription and we swap cards around as needed. I always just update the oldest card and shift stuff around.

It's way less, just buy for your half of the country...

That only works if you don't live near the changeover point or have intentions of visiting the other half of the country.

I try and update once a year or there about. My approaches don't change all that much. As long as my chart is older than my SW update I'm good to file and shoot.

It's technically not legal do do an approach with an expired database but that has always been my thinking too. In a situation where I needed to do an approach and the database is expired I wouldn't have reservations to do it if the approach hasn't been updated since the expiration of the database.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

you might want to read John's quote below....I think you are misinformed.

Under the standard 530W AFMS language, just because the approach hasn't changed doesn't make it legal to shoot if the database is expired. The language from the form AFMS states:

"“GPS”, “or GPS”, and “RNAV (GPS)” instrument approaches using the Garmin navigation system are prohibited unless the flight crew verifies and uses the current navigation database."

There are some GPS units out there with AFMSs that permit the kind of operation you're suggesting, but the GNS530W isn't one of them.

It is really not that difficult to use an out of date database. If one has current approach or procedure charts, there is a date on the chart that it was last published and in some instances a procedure amendment date that indicates when the last change that affects the database was made. As long as the date of the last change or procedure amendment date is prior to the expiration date of the approach or procedure, it may be used. To do this, you need current charts as provided by many of the EFB subscriptions or current paper charts. VOR's are easy to determine if they have moved or not by verifying the latitude-longitude in the database. Most VOR's have not moved since they were installed in the 1960's. But since airways are defined by VOR radials and intersections are defined by cross radials or DME distances, you don't need to have a current database to use the VOR.

The AFMS is the official source that determines if an expired database can be used or not, but since about Aug of 2010, the AIM has stated in table 1−1−6 note 3 regarding the requirement for a current database for approaches:

Prior to August of 2010, this note read as:

Although I maintain a regular subscription, I have used an out of date database for approaches for many years using GNS430W/530W systems, and if it takes you more than 30 seconds to determine if the approach in the expired database is current or not, you are spending too much time. Reasons pop up all the time where the database is down level, usually only one level. It is an hour and a half round trip back to the house/hangar if I forget to bring the latest database or it may switch over while I am on a trip. I don't get up early enough for it to expire in flight, but I have ferried aircraft with way out of date databases for a new buyer and have yet to find an approach that I could not legally fly. Remember, those VOR and ILS procedures in the database are there only for situational awareness and are totally not required to fly the approach by entering the frequencies and courses on the nav radios the old fashioned way.

 

[tsts4]

So if one installs a dual 750/650 combination for redundancy it requires 2 subscriptions for the same plane? Or does the cross fill cover everything?

I believe you have to have separate subscriptions. For multiple units the cheapest way to keep the databases up to date is to purchase a bundle/PilotPak/OnePak subscription vs separate subscriptions for each box.

 

[gsengle]

I think nowadays Jepp sells either the whole country, or east plus central bundled or west and central, so in effect there is no spot where you get screwed by living on the border any more...


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[bradg33]

you might want to read John's quote below....I think you are misinformed.

Doesn't matter what the AIM says, the AFMS for your airplane is controlling (John even notes that above). Unless your installer deviated from Garmin's form AFMS (which would have required a field approval), your 530W AFMS requires that you have a current database to legally shoot GPS approaches. Read the actual document in your airplane, not internet chatter.

See form AFMS here (page 8):
http://www.braggavionics.com/Softwa...in GNS500W Series AFMS 190-00357-03 Rev C.pdf

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

I appreciate your interpretation.....but I'll take the AIM over an ODA (Garmin) approved document.

Doesn't matter what the AIM says, the AFMS for your airplane is controlling (John even notes that above). Unless your installer deviated from Garmin's form AFMS (which would have required a field approval), your 530W AFMS requires that you have a current database to legally shoot GPS approaches. Read the actual document in your airplane, not internet chatter.

See form AFMS here (page 8):
http://www.braggavionics.com/Software_Upgrade_Documentation_files/Garmin GNS500W Series AFMS 190-00357-03 Rev C.pdf

 

[gsengle]

It doesn't work that way, the aim is general and advisory, you have to use your airplane as approved...


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[bradg33]

I appreciate your interpretation.....but I'll take the AIM over an ODA (Garmin) approved document.

Your choice, of course, but the FAA approved (by designation or otherwise) that AFMS and it's controlling. You may prefer the AIM's guidance because it saves you a few dollars, but if it were to ever become an issue you're very likely to lose the argument that the AIM controls over the AFMS.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Your choice, of course, but the FAA approved (by designation or otherwise) that AFMS and it's controlling. You may prefer the AIM's guidance because it saves you a few dollars, but if it were to ever become an issue you're very likely to lose the argument that the AIM controls over the AFMS.

I'll make a few phone calls on Monday and report back.

Wonder what BradZ has to say?

 

[gsengle]

Here is the current language which indeed has that change... certainly common sense and logic seems safe. And a strong argument if you ever got in trouble. But would be good to know for sure.

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[Checkout_my_Six]

Your choice, of course, but the FAA approved (by designation or otherwise) that AFMS and it's controlling. You may prefer the AIM's guidance because it saves you a few dollars, but if it were to ever become an issue you're very likely to lose the argument that the AIM controls over the AFMS.

btw....my AFMS (dated November 6, 2006) reads:

2.3 Navigation Database
The 500W Series unit database card must be installed. (IAW the TSO deviations granted to Garmin for the 500W unit, navigation database cards
may not be marked with the part number. The software automatically precludes invalid databases for use by the 500W)
a) IFR enroute and terminal navigation is prohibited unless the pilot verifies the currency of the database or verifies each selected waypoint for
accuracy by reference to current approved data.
b) GPS instrument approaches using the 500W Series units are prohibited, unless the 500W Series unit’s approach data is verified by the pilot or crew to be current. Instrument approaches must be accomplished in accordance with an approved instrument approach procedure that is loaded from the 500W Series unit database.

This can be accomplished by checking the approach plate and verifying the plate date is older than the SW update.

 

[bradg33]

btw....my AFMS reads:


This can be accomplished by checking the approach plate and verifying the plate date is older than the SW update.

If that's what your AFMS actually reads, then I agree that your operational procedure is legit and legal. But not every GNS AFMS reads that ways. Owners and pilots need to be aware of what their individual AFMS requires.

 

[Ravioli]

Buy the subscription and stay current. It's probably the least expensive part of flying and there's no reason not to keep up with it.

I file this convo along with the mythical 13 month annual "saving" $1k every ten years.

 

[gsengle]

The mythical 13 month annual is quite real. Every year. Why wouldn't ya?


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[tsts4]

If that's what your AFMS actually reads, then I agree that your operational procedure is legit and legal. But not every GNS AFMS reads that ways. Owners and pilots need to be aware of what their individual AFMS requires.

Case in point. Out of the current C-172S Nav III ShyhawkSP AFM:
"GPS based IFR enroute, oceanic and terminal navigation is prohibited unless the pilot verifies the currency of the database or verifies each selected waypoint for accuracy by reference to current approved data.

RNAV/GPS instrument approaches must be accomplished in accordance with approved instrument approach procedures that are retrieved from the G1000 navigation database. The G1000 database must incorporate the current update cycle."

 

[WannFly]

How about swapping cards with someone else, sharing a subscription? Swap every month, worst case you're a month out. But $300 vs $150 isn't a huge saving in plane-costs...

I am pretty sure it's a violation their license agreement, the one no one reads and clicks I agree

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[James331]

If I'm doing a lot of IFR, yeah I'll update, if I'm doing mostly VFR, I'll not keep it as updated, just depends.

For VFR, as long as with not more than a couple years old, whatever.

 

[dell30rb]

Garmin database pricing is available here: https://fly.garmin.com/fly-garmin/support/pricing

For the GTNs, all of the databases are available as single updates and most as a subscription. For comparison sake, a single US Nav data (Garmin) update is $129 vs. $299 for a subscription. The same US Nav data for a GTN from Jeppensen is $155 for a single update and $465 for a subscription. The prices go up from there as you add coverage.

Damn, I have been overpaying.

Updating takes about 3 minutes if I bring my laptop out to the hangar with the update already downloaded. I generally go over a month between trips, so I just update before every trip.

Yeah you could legally fly IFR with an out of date database as long as you can verify the approaches you are planning to fly haven't been changed since your last update. But why screw with that when things do not always go as planned? I flew back to Raleigh from Florida last year, ads-b showed the weather was LIFR over a very broad area with my home base at the center, and I was not as fat on fuel as I would like to have been. So I dialed up an LPV approach into KLRO, broke out at 500agl and taxied straight to the self service pumps.

 

[Rykymus]

I have two cards. One in the plane, and one that I update when it's time. That way I can just take it with me and swap it out. No biggie. And I have a reminder set in my calendar app. Like others have said, the cost is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall cost of flying. And I'd rather not risk any problems just to save a few hundred bucks each year.

But, you can navigate and shoot approaches without a GPS. If you don't want to pay for the updates, then just use it as an SA tool and shoot VOR or ILS approaches instead. There's no law that says you have to have a GPS to fly IFR. Just do it 'old school'.

 

[Shawn]

I have two cards. One in the plane, and one that I update when it's time. That way I can just take it with me and swap it out. No biggie.

This.

Buying the second card is worth every penny. One for the plane and one lives in my flight bag to update at home when needed. Never have to worry about remembering to pull the card from the GPS to update.