Final approach - rudder or ailerons

On the approach, I make smallish (say, 5 degree) heading corrections with...

  • The ailerons of course, and coordinated; THAT is how you fly an airplane.

    Votes: 43 68.3%

  • I prefer the ailerons but rudder is OK, too.

    Votes: 3 4.8%

  • Using the rudder is the RIGHT way.

    Votes: 9 14.3%

  • I prefer the rudder.

    Votes: 8 12.7%

  • Wait, does this airplane have doors on each side??

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    63
alfadog

alfadog

Final Approach
Joined
May 3, 2010
Messages
5,057
Location
Miami
Display Name
Display name:
alfadog
In another thread, I mention that I am being taught, when on the ILS approach, to hold the wings level with the ailerons and make small heading adjustments with the rudder. I was mildly upbraided for manhandling the aircraft roughly and using a crutch.

Now, I hardly think a 5 degree correction with the rudder is manhandling roughly but perhaps it is a crutch and bad technique. What do y'all do?
 
I've "officially" run into CFIIs that taught both methods in my C-182. I prefer coordinated.

Knowing that you can nudge things around with rudder a bit is a useful secondary tool in the head to me, but not comfortable to me as the only or primary method.
 
Clark1961 said:
Autoland is a little rough in the 'kota...
Click to expand...

Too bad for us Piper owners. Cessna has Land-O-Matic.

b36994.jpg
 
RotorAndWing said:
Kinda sucks after landing and rolling out when you discover "autoland" is not installed on the aircraft. ;)
Click to expand...
What was that old write-up/sign-off in the forms?

Discrepancy: Autoland not responding accurately.
Sign-off: Autoland not installed in this aircraft.
 
5 degrees?
Enough turbulence on approach and the heading will swing +/- 10 degrees anyway. Your just looking to average it put to keep the needles within one dot.
 
Ron Levy said:
Rudder or aileron? Yes.


IOW, use both together in a coordinated manner -- gently.
Click to expand...

This is the correct answer. I don't like CFI-IAs who feel the need to get draconian.

You still fly the airplane in the normal manner; it is just that you make small corrections.
 
I was taught, and use, the rudder only method, especially on an ILS. Works well for me...in a 182.

I have absolutely no experience in anything else so...

YMMV.
 
Last edited:
Tracking inbound requires conscious effort to repeatedly turn and then stop the turn in tiny segments. Learning to say it aloud as you do it "turn 5 right" (half the width of the heading bug) "stop turn" makes it easier. Repeat as necessary.
 
The poll doesn't have "ailerons only."
 
I use what the plane needs for the landing; rudder for alignment and ailerons for drift control. Turns for heading corrections are done in a coordinated fashion.
 
Honestly, I don't think about it. I just fly the plane. Too many other things to worry about flying an instrument approach.
 
Henning said:
I use what the plane needs for the landing; rudder for alignment and ailerons for drift control. Turns for heading corrections are done in a coordinated fashion.
Click to expand...

You need both for landing in order to transition from the air mass to the pavement.
 
Brad Z said:
Honestly, I don't think about it. I just fly the plane.
Click to expand...
That would be my answer. Years ago I was accused of using the rudder but I was doing it subconsciously.
 
Using rudder only to correct for heading deviations is sloppy flying IMHO...
 
In my dim memory I seem to remember kicking the rudder to get you back on track can lead to stalling and fall down go boom.
 
woodstock said:
In my dim memory I seem to remember kicking the rudder to get you back on track can lead to stalling and fall down go boom.
Click to expand...

You have to slow down first. No amount of rudder will cause a stall at approach speeds.

It will snap the tails off of some Transport Category aircraft, though.
 
woodstock said:
In my dim memory I seem to remember kicking the rudder to get you back on track can lead to stalling and fall down go boom.
Click to expand...
Then you did good and kicked the correct direction and dropped straight, bravo. That is a right of passage that a logbook does not record and please don't read me as facetious. Seriously, if a kick to coordination drops you into a stall, you are way nose up in a power on stall and/or out of rig.
 
woodstock said:
In my dim memory I seem to remember kicking the rudder to get you back on track can lead to stalling and fall down go boom.
Click to expand...

I think that is the least of the worries on the ILS/LPV final approach and holding the wings level. Mostly, it comes down to is it sloppy flying or an acceptable, even preferred, technique.

How much of it comes to small vs large aircraft? I.e. acceptable in a 172 but not in an Airbus??
 
denverpilot said:
You have to slow down first. No amount of rudder will cause a stall at approach speeds.

It will snap the tails off of some Transport Category aircraft, though.
Click to expand...

Didn't see you post but I am thinking along the same lines.
 
denverpilot said:
.

It will snap the tails off of some Transport Category aircraft, though.
Click to expand...

Not if used as necessary to bring and keep a transport category coordinated with an engine failure. What snaps tails off is pumping the rudder vigorously back and forth at 250 KIAS.
 
An airplane flies in 3 axis... Always fly the airplane, not just one axis...
Yeah, I too was taught to 'kick' the rudder on the ILS... As soon as my certificate had instrument added to it, I went back to flying the plane not kicking it...
All you young whipper snappers need to read Langewiesche (Stick and Rudder) to find out what your CFI never taught you (he doesn't know it either)...
Ponder the interaction of adverse yaw and gyroscopic effect when you 'kick' the rudder right versus left and maybe you will see why your approach seems to turn into a bucking bronco at times...
 
aterpster said:
Not if used as necessary to bring and keep a transport category coordinated with an engine failure. What snaps tails off is pumping the rudder vigorously back and forth at 250 KIAS.
Click to expand...

If a certified airplane is kept below Va, by definition the pilot should be able to go full deflection in one direction with any single control, with total disregard for structural integrity.
 
@ Alpha - The right answer to your question is the method that allows you to shoot the most precise approach. The 'rudder only' method helps novices limit bank angle, but discards coordination. The coordinated turn method is smoother and more comfortable...if you don't mind S turns all the way down the final.
In a way, an instrument approach (particularly an ILS) is like the landing or takeoff roll in a tailwheel airplane: If you never let the heading deviate in the first place, you'll avoid a lot of drama. So, once you intercept those needles, lock on to them and don't let them budge - even a needle width.
 
aterpster said:
Not if used as necessary to bring and keep a transport category coordinated with an engine failure. What snaps tails off is pumping the rudder vigorously back and forth at 250 KIAS.
Click to expand...

True. Just being snarky about Airbus tails.
 
The localizer on an ILS is essentially an extended centerline. If you were vmc and off centerline, you would'nt correct with the rudder only and you certainly wouldn't do that in any transport category aircraft.

+1 on flying the airplane normally.
 
I'm a little confused by the insistent tone of many of the responders. Yes, I suppose coordinated turns are the only "right" way to fly the airplane.

But if your localizer needle is mostly centered and you notice it ever so slightly edging off to one side, my CFII gave me the tip that a gentle rudder deflection can be used to halt that needle excursion with less chance of overcorrecting than trying to make such a subtle correction with a coordinated turn.

If you're good with stick and rudder and the plane responds to your thoughts without conscious control, then fine...you and Chuck Yeager can point at me and laugh.

But if you want another tool in your bag of tricks to make the airplane do what you want it to do, then the ol' "nudge the nose with the rudder" technique might be useful, and I see no reason to be ashamed to use it.
 
Last edited:
With 51 votes in, here is my take so far.

  • By a 2:1 margin, folks feel using the rudder to make heading corrections on the approach is unacceptable.
  • Four times as many think using aileron is the CORRECT way as think using rudder is the CORRECT way.
Interesting, to me, that folks, like me, are being taught a method that most think is just plain wrong.
 
lr60plt said:
The localizer on an ILS is essentially an extended centerline. If you were vmc and off centerline, you would'nt correct with the rudder only and you certainly wouldn't do that in any transport category aircraft.

+1 on flying the airplane normally.
Click to expand...

We used aileron only on all the jets I flew except for OEI or for takeoff and landing. Same for the autopilot. The only autopilot I used that used the rudder was on the L-1011, and then only when autoland became active.
 
aterpster said:
We used aileron only on all the jets I flew except for OEI or for takeoff and landing. Same for the autopilot. The only autopilot I used that used the rudder was on the L-1011, and then only when autoland became active.
Click to expand...
I don't think we are talking about jets or other airplanes which have yaw damp or something like it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top