filter debris

Tom-D

Tom-D

Taxi to Parking
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
34,740
Display Name
Display name:
Tom-D
This was found in a oil filter of a new engine, after 5 hours run time.

the bullet is a .223 placed as size comparison
 

Attachments

  • Image 1.jpg
    Image 1.jpg
    352.6 KB · Views: 152
  • Image 2.jpg
    Image 2.jpg
    470.2 KB · Views: 129
Face palm,

I just did a warranty job on a new 84hrs husky, low oil pressure lead to a precautionary landing at my home drome. Found walnut shell stuck in the bypass valve and more in the suction screen.
 
I had to replace 2 cylinders on a factory new O-320 in the first 100 hrs of use.
I think the only reason new engines are shipped assembled is so the factory can be reasonably sure they have included all the parts.
 
Richard said:
Tom, is that organic material? Looks like mouse droppings.
Click to expand...

the black mouse droppings stuff, seems to be sealant. the rest is dust and filter paper from cutting the filter open.
 
Skylane81E said:
Face palm,

I just did a warranty job on a new 84hrs husky, low oil pressure lead to a precautionary landing at my home drome. Found walnut shell stuck in the bypass valve and more in the suction screen.
Click to expand...

I'd think there are only three ways for that to happen:

1) Airfilter with a big hole or gap in it.

2) A&Ps having a snack while doing engine work.

3) Rodent chews through the scat tubing behind the air filter and has dinner.
 
What is unusual about it? Brand new engine is gonna expel the small stuff from assy. Looks to me like a clean filter.
 
AdamZ said:
I'd think there are only three ways for that to happen:

1) Airfilter with a big hole or gap in it.

2) A&Ps having a snack while doing engine work.

3) Rodent chews through the scat tubing behind the air filter and has dinner.
Click to expand...
4) debris from media blasting.
 
Richard said:
4) debris from media blasting.
Click to expand...

If this happened a long time ago, I'd buy that. I don't believe any one is still using walnut hull to clean.

It's really a harsh media to clean, most re-builders use a dip tank and steam cleaner, and corrosion is removed with etch rather than a hard media.

the chance of getting hard media into a bearing and ruining a crank,cam,or gear is simply too great to mess with cleaning that way.
 
Tom-D said:
If this happened a long time ago, I'd buy that. I don't believe any one is still using walnut hull to clean.

It's really a harsh media to clean, most re-builders use a dip tank and steam cleaner, and corrosion is removed with etch rather than a hard media.

the chance of getting hard media into a bearing and ruining a crank,cam,or gear is simply too great to mess with cleaning that way.
Click to expand...
Well...stuff happens.

Does EPA come down hard on the shops with chemical baths? I mean, that right there might be a reason to avoid the dip tanks.
 
Last edited:
Tom-D said:
If this happened a long time ago, I'd buy that. I don't believe any one is still using walnut hull to clean.

It's really a harsh media to clean, most re-builders use a dip tank and steam cleaner, and corrosion is removed with etch rather than a hard media.

the chance of getting hard media into a bearing and ruining a crank,cam,or gear is simply too great to mess with cleaning that way.
Click to expand...

Factory new engine, lyc told me they use it and Aviat has seen it "several" times
 
Do the factories run the engines prior to shipment? If so, for how long?
 
Skylane81E said:
Factory new engine, lyc told me they use it and Aviat has seen it "several" times
Click to expand...

OMG leave it to Lycoming to still be in the dark ages.

In the casting of new parts it is used to remove the mold material from the new castings, but it goes thru how many machining operations after that? What type of QA and cleaning prior to assembly do they have.

one more reason to not buy new from Lycoming.
 
Richard said:
Well...stuff happens.

Does EPA come down hard on the shops with chemical baths? I mean, that right there might be a reason to avoid the dip tanks.
Click to expand...

I just paid 135 bucks for a 5 gallon bucket of EPA compliant carb dip. but it doesn't work.
 
Tom-D said:
OMG leave it to Lycoming to still be in the dark ages.

In the casting of new parts it is used to remove the mold material from the new castings, but it goes thru how many machining operations after that? What type of QA and cleaning prior to assembly do they have.

one more reason to not buy new from Lycoming.
Click to expand...

Over the last 11 years I bought at least a dozen Lycoming factory remans. Not one of them gave me any hassles. Not one had anything unusual in the filter. On the other hand, the brand new Slick mags often had to come off and get oil cleaned out of them and get the E-gap set. And the carbs, remanufactured by someone else, sometimes gave trouble, too. The engine itself was always just fine and ran to TBO with no troubles.

Dan
 
Tom-D said:
I just paid 135 bucks for a 5 gallon bucket of EPA compliant carb dip. but it doesn't work.
Click to expand...

yeah but .... it's environmentally friendly! That's all that counts! You're expecting it to work, too? :D
 
Tom-D said:
do you think there is any thing unusual about the filter in this thread?
Click to expand...


Cleaner than most development engines I see after break-in. Ive always seen a little bit of metallic (bearing shell) bits in the first filter. Any of the bits magnetic?

And it doesn't look like the engine was built with excessive sealant. (Just some little pieces came off the edges.) Any big globs of silicone strings in the drained oil?

At work, we always keep the first filter to compare to the second. Second filter media is typically virgin clean. If its still generating debri, then there is something wrong.
 
Tom-D said:
do you think there is any thing unusual about the filter in this thread?
Click to expand...

There's something wrong with that one, alright. I was saying that I have bought many engines from Lycoming without having any trouble with anything they build. If they really were a bunch of klutzes I would expect to have something show up at least with every other engine.

We've had good service from our Lycs. Our Continentals, on the other hand, gave us fits sometimes, especially with the valves. Never had any of those engines reach TBO without having to fool with valve repairs at some point and often at several intervals in the engine's life.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
There's something wrong with that one, alright. I was saying that I have bought many engines from Lycoming without having any trouble with anything they build. If they really were a bunch of klutzes I would expect to have something show up at least with every other engine.

We've had good service from our Lycs. Our Continentals, on the other hand, gave us fits sometimes, especially with the valves. Never had any of those engines reach TBO without having to fool with valve repairs at some point and often at several intervals in the engine's life.

Dan
Click to expand...
How do you know which make engine this filter was on?
this isn't about Continental Vs Lycoming.

All the factory engines you get are run on the test cell and the oil drained after the run, you never see what comes out of any Engine you place in service, all you see is the oil you put in them and the filter that you placed on the new engine.

This is the first oil to be run in this engine, and the first filter that oil was filtered with.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Ok, Tom, let's hear the rest of the story, and what your thoughts were.
Click to expand...

It's better than most of the engines I see, and is running great. the owner has no problems with it.

I put the pictures here just to see what the experts would think.
 
The picture doesn't tell me whether those bits of debris are chunks of carbon that were loosened inside oil galleries but not removed during the cleaning process, or if they were bits of hardened Form-A-Gasket, or if they were bits of black silicone sealant, or if they were pieces of walnut shell, or if they bits of old gasket material that wasn't cleaned off properly from some mating faces, or if they were bits of oxidized metal breaking off something that got real hot inside, or if they were bits of hardened rubber from a seal that should have been replaced, or whatever. Pictures are usually worth and thousand words, but in this case we need a few words along with the pictures.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
The picture doesn't tell me whether those bits of debris are chunks of carbon that were loosened inside oil galleries but not removed during the cleaning process, or if they were bits of hardened Form-A-Gasket, or if they were bits of black silicone sealant, or if they were pieces of walnut shell, or if they bits of old gasket material that wasn't cleaned off properly from some mating faces, or if they were bits of oxidized metal breaking off something that got real hot inside, or if they were bits of hardened rubber from a seal that should have been replaced, or whatever. Pictures are usually worth and thousand words, but in this case we need a few words along with the pictures.

Dan
Click to expand...

Then why were you in the OMG mode..??
 
Sort of on topic....we decided to go with the factory new lycoming steel jugs for the top overhaul and my A&P is having the new jugs shipped to Penn Yan from Lycoming to look them over and then ship the new ones along with returning the old ones with the cracks indicated on them. He is firm about having the new ones rechecked again by another set of hands and eyes before he installs them on my plane.
 
DutchessFlier said:
Sort of on topic....we decided to go with the factory new lycoming steel jugs for the top overhaul and my A&P is having the new jugs shipped to Penn Yan from Lycoming to look them over and then ship the new ones along with returning the old ones with the cracks indicated on them. He is firm about having the new ones rechecked again by another set of hands and eyes before he installs them on my plane.
Click to expand...

Why doesn't he do that himself?
 
AdamZ said:
I'd think there are only three ways for that to happen:

1) Airfilter with a big hole or gap in it.

2) A&Ps having a snack while doing engine work.

3) Rodent chews through the scat tubing behind the air filter and has dinner.
Click to expand...

One more... Walnut shell is a blasting medium used like sand blasting to clean and polish metal surfaces. It is often used to clean up new engine pats castings to remove all the casting flash from the surface. It's better than sand/glass since any residual bits of shell dust in the engine will be softer than the metal and not cause destruction.
 
Tom-D said:
If this happened a long time ago, I'd buy that. I don't believe any one is still using walnut hull to clean.
It's really a harsh media to clean, most re-builders use a dip tank and steam cleaner, and corrosion is removed with etch rather than a hard media.

the chance of getting hard media into a bearing and ruining a crank,cam,or gear is simply too great to mess with cleaning that way.
Click to expand...


You'd be incorrect, it's still stock at many foundries.
 
Henning said:
You'd be incorrect, it's still stock at many foundries.
Click to expand...

Which overhaul shop would you find a walnut media blaster ?

we were talking about overhaul shops.

The cleaning shop I use, has one they use 80 grit plastic media at 40PSI, that leaves a nice clean no scratch surface.
 
Last edited:
Tom-D said:
Which overhaul shop would you find a walnut media blaster ?

we were talking about overhaul shops.

The cleaning shop I use, has one they use 80 grit plastic media at 40PSI, that leaves a nice clean no scratch surface.
Click to expand...

NEW engines don't come from overhaul shops, that was the one I was referring to. They come from new parts which come from foundries many of which go through truckloads of walnut shells.
The engine you had didn't have anything wrong with it.
 
Just pulled the end of a drill bit out of the pan on a LTIO 540 today, no indications of any other issues at this time.
 
Skylane81E said:
Just pulled the end of a drill bit out of the pan on a LTIO 540 today, no indications of any other issues at this time.
Click to expand...

I'd wager that came out of a can of oil.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top