Filing a STAR

ScottM

ScottM

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iBazinga!
I am heading into an airport that has a STAR and is busy enough that I expect to have to fly it as well.

I am going to be heading to KSTL and am expecting the Vandalia Six Arrival.
Specifically I expect the Spinner Transition.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0813/00360VANDALIA.PDF

How do I file this?

Than Vandalia Six arrival is VLA.VLA6 and the Spinner Transition is SPI.VLA6

So do I enter just SPI.VLA6 or VLA.VLA6 SPI.VLA6 into the flight plan?
 
smigaldi said:
How do I file this?

Than Vandalia Six arrival is VLA.VLA6 and the Spinner Transition is SPI.VLA6

So do I enter just SPI.VLA6 or VLA.VLA6 SPI.VLA6 into the flight plan?
Click to expand...
SPI.VLA6
 
smigaldi said:
I am heading into an airport that has a STAR and is busy enough that I expect to have to fly it as well.

I am going to be heading to KSTL and am expecting the Vandalia Six Arrival.
Specifically I expect the Spinner Transition.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0813/00360VANDALIA.PDF

How do I file this?

Than Vandalia Six arrival is VLA.VLA6 and the Spinner Transition is SPI.VLA6

So do I enter just SPI.VLA6 or VLA.VLA6 SPI.VLA6 into the flight plan?
Click to expand...

Just SPI.VLA6.
 
sounds good to me scott. have fun at STL. ramp fees at signature are pretty high. I was there to drop off a passenger about a month ago, and i think it cost about $160 for 10 minutes. oh well.
 
tonycondon said:
sounds good to me scott. have fun at STL. ramp fees at signature are pretty high. I was there to drop off a passenger about a month ago, and i think it cost about $160 for 10 minutes. oh well.
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I already called the two FBOs there. Signature is the cheaper of the two and has hangars. Also I am not paying.
 
OTOH. Why file the STAR in the first place? You'll be given it enroute with plenty of time to plan if ATC really needs you to fly it. If they don't, you'll save some time and gas by going more direct.
 
Lance F said:
OTOH. Why file the STAR in the first place? You'll be given it enroute with plenty of time to plan if ATC really needs you to fly it. If they don't, you'll save some time and gas by going more direct.
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That was my question. We never file them; if they want us on one, we'll get it when we pick up our clearance. File what you want, then let them tell you if they need you to do something else (and likely more circuitous). IME, if you're low and slow and out of the way of their jet traffic, you can often get by without flying a full STAR.
 
Lance F said:
OTOH. Why file the STAR in the first place? You'll be given it enroute with plenty of time to plan if ATC really needs you to fly it. If they don't, you'll save some time and gas by going more direct.
Click to expand...

Hmm, I'll try that. I've always filed the STAR and planned on it, just to make it easier. Sometimes, they cut it short and send me direct.

So, do most GA types not file the STAR???
 
Bill Jennings said:
So, do most GA types not file the STAR???
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I don't think it matters too much one way or the other. If you don't file it and they want you on it they will give it to you. If you file one and it's not the one they want you on they'll change it. If you file one and you later decide you want a shortcut, ask them and maybe they will give it to you. If it's someplace where I'm familiar and I know which STAR we normally get I usually file it, otherwise I don't.
 
I used to try to outguess them (when there were several possibles) and sort of gave that up as a losing game.
I recall going into Denver from the south, there are two. named after birds for some reason. Partner filed the Quail I think, and I said I wasn't going to load it because as soon as I did, we'd get the other . I was 'urged' to get it in, as we were pretty close - soon as I punched "Enter" - we were assigned the other one Wren or something, but get this...the minute I got it out - atc changed their minds again!!

Might have to do with local knowledge -Spike helped me guess the right one for Dallas last year.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I recall going into Denver from the south, there are two. named after birds for some reason. Partner filed the Quail I think, and I said I wasn't going to load it because as soon as I did, we'd get the other . I was 'urged' to get it in, as we were pretty close - soon as I punched "Enter" - we were assigned the other one Wren or something
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Larks! :)
 
yea, theres been a few times where i tried to outguess ATC. Id say i guessed right 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 times. even when using the suggested routes on fltplan.com. i used to try to guess how Chicago Center would send me around O'hare, fat chance. coming out of STL, i filed a DP that took me towards Iowa. They gave me a DP that took me towards Kansas and then north. Thank God the first thing STL departure said was "would you like direct?"
 
tonycondon said:
yea, theres been a few times where i tried to outguess ATC. Id say i guessed right 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 times. even when using the suggested routes on fltplan.com. i used to try to guess how Chicago Center would send me around O'hare, fat chance. coming out of STL, i filed a DP that took me towards Iowa. They gave me a DP that took me towards Kansas and then north. Thank God the first thing STL departure said was "would you like direct?"
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Hopefully soon you'll be able to file T-265 http://download.aopa.org/epilot/2009/090106t265.jpg to get around Chicago's space.
 
Me? I wouldn't bother. At least around these here parts, seems like STARs are saved for the turbojet/prop set. ATC likes to fit us flibs in wherever they can. I've been into Logan, Dulles, Providence, BWI, busy airports all and haven't gotten a STAR amended to my route plan.

STAR seems like one more way for the computer to foul up your flight plan. One man's opinion.
 
SPI.VLA6, but I don't think I'd bother filing it.

The ATC around here has said on more than one occasion (sometimes to me, sometimes to other pilots that I overhear them talking to) "File what works best for you, and if we don't like it, we'll change it."

Good to be ready for it, but ATC will likely change things up on you anyway. It seems that once you get to busy areas it's not at all uncommon for them to assign radar vectors anyway.

Then again, my experience is primarily with ATC between Ohio and the Atlantic Ocean. Your mileage may vary.
 
Pure conjecture (this is a webboard, right?) but what appears to happen is that while in ARTCC (Center) airspace you will get a computer generated routing into your arrival area. No human, who may apply common sense, looks at it.
Now once you're in TRACON (Approach) airspace, a real, live human is looking at things. At this point you'll very often get a routing change, like direct or vectors or a different STAR.

In other words, it's a system you will often not be able to outguess. So, file what you want (Direct is a good choice.), and be prepared for about anything. If you get something crazy, it is perfectly acceptable to REQUEST something better.
 
From what I'm finding, the computers kick out standard DPs. But, STARs are up in the air for the little guys. You can specify "No DPs, No STARs" and hope for the best. But, I wouldn't count on getting by without a DP from your clearance controller.
 
I am not an advocate of "No SIDs; no STARs". If you can't handle them, you shouldn't be an IFR pilot. There's nothing particularly difficult about them, and they help out ATC. OTOH, I don't see any point to filing them.
 
Lance F said:
I am not an advocate of "No SIDs; no STARs". If you can't handle them, you shouldn't be an IFR pilot. There's nothing particularly difficult about them, and they help out ATC. OTOH, I don't see any point to filing them.
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+1

That comment is the "kick me" sign.
 
Bill Jennings said:
May as well request being put into the penalty box.
Click to expand...

"Congratulations, you have been directed to the KELSI penalty box! Hold at KELSI until I feel like letting you go somewhere else." ;)

I'll make it a +3... IFR pilots should be able to handle this stuff. It's really no more difficult than an approach.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
"Congratulations, you have been directed to the KELSI penalty box! Hold at KELSI until I feel like letting you go somewhere else." ;)

I'll make it a +3... IFR pilots should be able to handle this stuff. It's really no more difficult than an approach.
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KELSI is 3 miles form my home airport and I still have never been assigned KELSI.
 
Lance F said:
I am not an advocate of "No SIDs; no STARs". If you can't handle them, you shouldn't be an IFR pilot. There's nothing particularly difficult about them, and they help out ATC. OTOH, I don't see any point to filing them.
Click to expand...

Well...

Maybe.

The purpose of "No STAR" in remarks is to alert ATC that you don't have the requisite documents. This can happen to the best IFR pilot (diversion to a state for which you don't have plates, for example), especially here in the east where TPP books are numerous and cover small areas.

Though I agree every IFR-rated pilot should be able to fly a STAR (good grief -- it's merely a mini navigation plan).

If you don't know how to fly DPs, you've got bigger prolems.
 
dmccormack said:
The purpose of "No STAR" in remarks is to alert ATC that you don't have the requisite documents. This can happen to the best IFR pilot (diversion to a state for which you don't have plates, for example), especially here in the east where TPP books are numerous and cover small areas.
Click to expand...

Doesn't diversion come after filing?
 
smigaldi said:
KELSI is 3 miles form my home airport
Click to expand...

No it's not, unless you're based at KVYS. You're right by KRENA and FARMM. Lots and lots of ORD arrivals coming through there.

and I still have never been assigned KELSI.
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The purpose of KELSI is to keep you from ever getting into C90 airspace. Since you're already *IN* C90 airspace, there's no point to them giving you KELSI.

Next time you're flying from somewhere away from Chicago (like MSN, DBQ, RFD, etc.) and going to someplace on the other side of Chicago (FWA, LAF, etc.) see what you get. ;)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Next time you're flying from somewhere away from Chicago (like MSN, DBQ, RFD, etc.) and going to someplace on the other side of Chicago (FWA, LAF, etc.) see what you get. ;)
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Does not matter what direction my destination is, my clearance is always that same. Cleared to xyz, 3000 feet expect 1234feet 10 minutes after departure, upone entering controlled airspace heading of 180. I have even got this heading IFR to the north, where it made no sense to start me out going straight to the south. They then turned me east twards ORD and then north, got me in the conga line to the badger VOR. If I head out west the still give me the same clearence but then start sending me towards POLO. If I can leave VFR I will wait until I hit RFD's airspce and get my clearence from them.
 
smigaldi said:
Does not matter what direction my destination is, my clearance is always that same. Cleared to xyz, 3000 feet expect 1234feet 10 minutes after departure, upone entering controlled airspace heading of 180. I have even got this heading IFR to the north, where it made no sense to start me out going straight to the south. They then turned me east twards ORD and then north, got me in the conga line to the badger VOR. If I head out west the still give me the same clearence but then start sending me towards POLO. If I can leave VFR I will wait until I hit RFD's airspce and get my clearence from them.
Click to expand...

But if you're flying from somewhere else, such as MSN, DBQ, RFD, etc., your clearance will probably be different.
 
Lance F said:
I am not an advocate of "No SIDs; no STARs". If you can't handle them, you shouldn't be an IFR pilot. There's nothing particularly difficult about them, and they help out ATC. OTOH, I don't see any point to filing them.
Click to expand...
For short flights, it makes no sense to file them. I try to make shorter IFR flights direct and request no DP or STAR. If we're going the distance and they don't cut into the route I'd prefer for the student, no problem.

Today, I'm headed to Llano with Michelle whom I originally met on this board. I'll file direct but guaranteed they will give me the Austin Two departure with the Llano transition. Now, it's anyone's guess where they let us join the airway between Centex and Llano VORs. But, wouldn't it make so much more sense to vector us out for traffic then direct? We're talking about only a 70 mile flight.

Spike, I'll think about ya as I bite into that prime rib and brisket. :D
 
roncachamp said:
But if you're flying from somewhere else, such as MSN, DBQ, RFD, etc., your clearance will probably be different.
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As I said in my original post, no it is not. It is always the same, CHiApp starts me on a 180 heading up to 3000, then they will RV to the direction they want.
 
Lance F said:
I am not an advocate of "No SIDs; no STARs".
Click to expand...

Filing NO SIDS NO STARS made sense when they were published separately from IAPs. If you didn't have them it was good to make ATC aware of it, if the procedure was needed they'd issue the full route. Now that everything's in one book it makes no sense.
 
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