Ferry Flight

AggieMike88

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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
Say an aircraft is airworthy, but out of annual, and needs to be flown to the AP/IA who will do the work. And say the local FSDO grants the ferry permit.

Can a regular PPL do the flight or does it need to be a CP?

(cite the appropriate reg if you know it so I can add it to my bank of knowledge)
 
As long as you could have made the flight if the plane were in annual, you can fly it on the ferry permit.
 
Is it your aircraft? Are you getting paid to do it?

For the discussion, consider the answer no to both. Say this was one that I was interested in (as owner or co-owner) and I was facilitating the inspection to mechanic who would do the work at his hangar at a different airport. So no financial interest, yet, and not getting paid to make the flight.
 
Say an aircraft is airworthy, but out of annual, and needs to be flown to the AP/IA who will do the work. And say the local FSDO grants the ferry permit.

Can a regular PPL do the flight or does it need to be a CP?

(cite the appropriate reg if you know it so I can add it to my bank of knowledge)

Eeesh, technically the way things are ruled at the moment, the PP can do the flight, but can't log it in furtherance of another rating. Yes, I realize what I just said is retarded.
 
As long as you could have made the flight if the plane were in annual, you can fly it on the ferry permit.

Okay, so a PPL can do it. I guess since most ferry's happen with a CP, I associated that it was always a CP.
 
Eeesh, technically the way things are ruled at the moment, the PP can do the flight, but can't log it in furtherance of another rating. Yes, I realize what I just said is retarded.

For what I am noodling over, that's fine with me. ETE between points is less than 25 minutes so not logging the time isn't a deal breaker.
 
Say an aircraft is airworthy, but out of annual, and needs to be flown to the AP/IA who will do the work. And say the local FSDO grants the ferry permit.

Can a regular PPL do the flight or does it need to be a CP?

(cite the appropriate reg if you know it so I can add it to my bank of knowledge)

AFAIK... You will need a local A&P to request, and inspect it to get the ferry permit....
 
As long as you could have made the flight if the plane were in annual, you can fly it on the ferry permit.

This is true, but the fact that it is a ferry for maintenance flight, unless the PP has an equity stake in the plane, they are getting something of value (time in the logbook) in return for providing pilot service. The Special Flight Permit is just a Red Herring in this.
 
Might want to check that the owner's insurance has an open pilot clause and/or that you meet the time in type requirements.
 
AFAIK... You will need a local A&P to request, and inspect it to get the ferry permit....

No, you can request it and do all the transactions with the FSDO, then the A&P signs off that it's safe for the flight.
 
For what I am noodling over, that's fine with me. ETE between points is less than 25 minutes so not logging the time isn't a deal breaker.

IRL I wouldn't give it a second thought, as long as you weren't collecting cash or making a business out of it, neither would the FSDO.
 
Okay, so a PPL can do it. I guess since most ferry's happen with a CP, I associated that it was always a CP.

I used to ferry planes around the SoCal basin for my boss as a PP. We were literally next door to the FSDO, all the inspectors knew me, knew exactly what was happening. Not one **** was given...ever.
 
No, you can request it and do all the transactions with the FSDO, then the A&P signs off that it's safe for the flight.

My point is......
Mike is trying to get the plane to a different airport / mechanic.... Having the local guy having to sign it off might be the issue in the first place...:confused:..
 
Okay, so a PPL can do it. I guess since most ferry's happen with a CP, I associated that it was always a CP.

Do most ferries happen with a CP? I ferried my plane to my mechanic's grass strip a couple of years ago. (Went out of annual. The permit was to get it to him so he could do the annual.) No big deal. I happen to be a CSEL, but only have a third class medical so in essence I acted as a Private Pilot. I bet this happens a lot.

Jim
 
My point is......
Mike is trying to get the plane to a different airport / mechanic.... Having the local guy having to sign it off might be the issue in the first place...:confused:..

I have gone through this process scores of times, never have I had a problem getting a local sign off.
 
Do most ferries happen with a CP? I ferried my plane to my mechanic's grass strip a couple of years ago. (Went out of annual. The permit was to get it to him so he could do the annual.) No big deal. I happen to be a CSEL, but only have a third class medical so in essence I acted as a Private Pilot. I bet this happens a lot.

Jim

The difference is YOU ferried YOUR plane. The confusion comes in with the word ferry as a broad catch all word. You can ferry a plane, ie move it from one airport to another for a purpose outside normal use; without requiring a Special Flight Permit, aka Ferry Permit.

The problem comes when a PP moves somebody else's plane without having common purpose in that movement.
 
The difference is YOU ferried YOUR plane. The confusion comes in with the word ferry as a broad catch all word. You can ferry a plane, ie move it from one airport to another for a purpose outside normal use; without requiring a Special Flight Permit, aka Ferry Permit.

The problem comes when a PP moves somebody else's plane without having common purpose in that movement.

Everyone I have known over the years has been REALLY careful to use the ferry for special flight permit, and use the phrase "repositioning flight" when they talk about moving an airplane around.

Given that, so most special flight permits happen with CPs?

Jim
 
Everyone I have known over the years has been REALLY careful to use the ferry for special flight permit, and use the phrase "repositioning flight" when they talk about moving an airplane around.

Given that, so most special flight permits happen with CPs?

Jim

Yeah, either the owner or a CP if the owner is afraid or doesn't have the time.
 
Eeesh, technically the way things are ruled at the moment, the PP can do the flight, but can't log it in furtherance of another rating. Yes, I realize what I just said is retarded.

I'd think he could log it as long as he was footing the bill for the flight, no?

AFAIK... You will need a local A&P to request, and inspect it to get the ferry permit....

Actually, it is my understanding that the owner has to request the special flight permit. A mechanic does have to look over the plane and say it is safe for flight though.

If the plane is in a different FSDO than the mechanic it is being ferried to, you'll need to call the FSDO that covers the area that the plane is currently located in.
 
I'd think he could log it as long as he was footing the bill for the flight, no?



Actually, it is my understanding that the owner has to request the special flight permit. A mechanic does have to look over the plane and say it is safe for flight though.

If the plane is in a different FSDO than the mechanic it is being ferried to, you'll need to call the FSDO that covers the area that the plane is currently located in.

If he pays for the flight he would have standing to log it.
 
AFAIK... You will need a local A&P to request, and inspect it to get the ferry permit....

How thorough of inspection would the local A&P require before signing the ferry permit?

If I was an A&P, and I was asked to sign-off that the airplane was airworthy, my inspection wouldn't be too much different than an annual inspection anyway. Especially if I was concerned about liability and didn't have a existing relationship with the aircraft/owner.
 
How thorough of inspection would the local A&P require before signing the ferry permit?

If I was an A&P, and I was asked to sign-off that the airplane was airworthy, my inspection wouldn't be too much different than an annual inspection anyway. Especially if I was concerned about liability and didn't have a existing relationship with the aircraft/owner.


Yup... My thoughts exactly.....

God forbid the mechanic signs it off after a quick glance and it crashes into a elementary school full of kids...:yikes:..........:sad:
 
How thorough of inspection would the local A&P require before signing the ferry permit?

If I was an A&P, and I was asked to sign-off that the airplane was airworthy, my inspection wouldn't be too much different than an annual inspection anyway. Especially if I was concerned about liability and didn't have a existing relationship with the aircraft/owner.

Oh no, it's more like a through preflight inspection. He's not declaring it airworthy, just safe enough for that flight.
 
Yup... My thoughts exactly.....

God forbid the mechanic signs it off after a quick glance and it crashes into a elementary school full of kids...:yikes:..........:sad:

It's not that tough, really. It's not a quick glance, just a good preflight and maybe a run up.
 
How thorough of inspection would the local A&P require before signing the ferry permit?

If I was an A&P, and I was asked to sign-off that the airplane was airworthy, my inspection wouldn't be too much different than an annual inspection anyway. Especially if I was concerned about liability and didn't have a existing relationship with the aircraft/owner.

Oh no, it's more like a through preflight inspection. He's not declaring it airworthy, just safe enough for that flight.

It's not that tough, really. It's not a quick glance, just a good preflight and maybe a run up.

Spicoli has it wrong.

The A&P signing off the ferry permit attest the aircraft is airworthy. Any outstanding AD's must be accomplished before flight (such as requiring 100 hour AD's) if they have timed out or any new AD's that require immediate action. The exception for the AD is if it specifies the aircraft may be ferried to a maintenance facility for the task to be completed. A log book entry is required by the A&P signing the ferry permit.

Sec. 21.199

Issue of special flight permits.

[(a) Except as provided in Sec. 21.197(c), an applicant for a special flight permit must submit a statement in a form and manner prescribed by the [FAA], indicating--]
(1) The purpose of the flight.
(2) The proposed itinerary.
(3) The crew required to operate the aircraft and its equipment, e.g., pilot, co-pilot, navigator, etc.
(4) The ways, if any, in which the aircraft does not comply with the applicable airworthiness requirements.
(5) Any restriction the applicant considers necessary for safe operation of the aircraft.
(6) Any other information considered necessary by the [FAA] for the purpose of prescribing operating limitations.
(b) The [FAA] may make, or require the applicant to make appropriate inspections or tests necessary for safety.
Sec. 39.23

[May I fly my aircraft to a repair facility to do the work required by an airworthiness directive?]



[Yes, the operations specifications giving some operators authority to operate include a provision that allow them to fly their aircraft to a repair facility to do the work required by an airworthiness directive. If you do not have this authority, the local Flight Standards District Office of FAA may issue you a special flight permit unless the airworthiness directive states otherwise. To ensure aviation safety, FAA may add special requirements for operating your aircraft to a place where the repairs or modifications can be accomplished. FAA may also decline to issue a special flight permit in particular cases if we determine you cannot move the aircraft safely.]

FAA Order 8130.2G

g. In accordance with 14 CFR § 39.23, some operations specifications may give an
operator the authority including the provision to fly an aircraft to a repair station to perform work
required by an AD. If the operator does not have this authority, the local FSDO may issue a
special flight permit in accordance with 14 CFR § 21.197(a) unless the airworthiness directive
states otherwise.

(1) In cases where the special flight permit paragraph is intentionally missing from an
AD, 14 CFR § 39.23 authorizes the issuance of a special flight permit, if the AD was published
after August 21, 2002 (the effective date of 14 CFR § 39.23). In all new ADs, the special flight
permit is authorized by 14 CFR § 39.23, and not the AD, unless the engineer determines that the
aircraft cannot be moved safely, and therefore the AD will include a paragraph that does not
allow any special flight permit or has certain restrictions.
(2) The ASI also has the authority under 14 CFR § 39.23 to deny a special flight permit
request for safety reasons as well as adding operating restrictions to the proposed route of flight.
An example of a justified denial would be a special flight permit request for operation over large
bodies of water or mountainous terrain with a single-engine aircraft that has an AD applicable to
the engine or propeller.
h. If the product is not an aircraft, and the AD does not provide for the product’s operation
during a ferry flight, in accordance with 14 CFR § 39.7 the product may not be operated during
such a flight. If the aircraft on which the product is installed can be operated safely without
operating the product, a special flight permit could be issued in accordance with
14 CFR § 21.197(a) with a limitation that the product be rendered inoperative for flight.

FAA Order 8130.2G

4162. Purposes. 14 CFR § 21.197 prescribes the general purposes for which a special flight
permit may be issued. The following specific operations also are considered to be within the
scope of the general provisions:
a. Any flight of a U.S.-registered aircraft covered by 14 CFR § 21.197, if the aircraft is
capable of safe flight, even though a TC has not been issued.

d. Flying an aircraft whose annual inspection has expired to a base where an annual
inspection can be accomplished.

FAA Order 8130.2G

4163. Application and Issuance (General).
a. When the application for a special flight permit is found in compliance with all
requirements, the FAA should issue FAA Form 8130-7, with operating limitations deemed
necessary for safe operation. The operating limitations must be enumerated on a separate sheet,
identified by the aircraft registration and serial number, dated, and signed. The applicant should
be advised that FAA Form 8130-7 and attached operating limitations must be displayed in the
aircraft in accordance 14 CFR § 91.203(b).
b. The FAA may assist the applicant by completing FAA Form 8130-6 based on
information furnished by telephone, letter, or fax. The name of the applicant should be entered
in the space provided for the applicant’s signature. A notation as to how the information was
received should be entered above the name, for example, “Received by letter dated .” If
the information provided is adequate, and all requirements for issuance are satisfied, the ASI
may issue a telegraphic or faxed special flight permit with appropriate limitations (except
14 CFR § 21.197(b) for overweight operations). These limitations will include inspection
requirements as deemed necessary. The telegraphic or faxed copy of the special flight permit
and prescribed operating limitations must be displayed in the aircraft in accordance with
14 CFR § 91.203(b) prior to conducting the special flight.
Note: Designees cannot issue a telegraphic or faxed special flight permit.
The 14 CFR part 135 air carrier must have an approved program to operate
nine or less passenger seats. All designees are required to physically perform the
inspection necessary to ensure the aircraft is eligible for the special flight permit.

c. If a district office processes numerous applications for telegraphic or faxed special flight
permits, a standard format may be filed with the local office.
d. When FAA Form 8130-6 has been completed, the ASI will complete the telegraphic or
faxed special flight permit to include any additional operating limitations that may be required.
The completed and signed permit may then be transmitted by fax. The faxed copy of the permit
that is received for display in the aircraft at the point of departure will be considered the original
permit.
e. A copy of each certification document should be retained in the files of the issuing
office. Only copies required per paragraph 807a(1) of this order, as applicable, are to be
forwarded to AFS-750.
4164. Aircraft Inspections.
a. It is the responsibility of the FAA to determine which inspections or tests are necessary
to ensure that the aircraft is capable of safe flight for the intended purpose.
b. The FAA should make, or require the applicant to make, appropriate inspections or tests
considered necessary for safe flight.
c. The FAA should inspect damaged aircraft or an aircraft for which the airworthiness is
questionable in any respect. Additionally, the FAA or the designee should inspect the LSA for
which a special flight permit may be issued. The FAA is authorized, at its discretion, to allow a
properly certificated mechanic or a repair station to conduct the necessary aircraft inspection(s)
in support of the issuance of a special flight permit.
Note: If an affirmative, technical determination cannot be made that a particular
aircraft is capable of safe operation because of insufficient design, inspection, or
maintenance data that normally is available for a type-certificated aircraft, the
special flight permit should not be issued.
d. When the FAA requires the applicant to make the inspection, the applicant must be
advised that such inspections must be—
(1) Accomplished by an appropriately certificated mechanic or repair station familiar
with all of the procedures and requirements contained in this chapter.
(2) Documented in the aircraft logbook by the authorized person who conducted the
inspection.
4165. Special Operating Limitations. The FAA should establish limitations as deemed
necessary for safe operation. Because individual circumstances may vary greatly, a list of
limitations applicable in every case cannot be provided. The objective is to ensure safe operation
of the aircraft. If necessary, solicit the technical assistance of other FAA offices or specialties.
Limitations should be clear and concise so they can be easily understood. In addition to the
limitations deemed necessary for the particular flight, the following items must be considered
when establishing operating limitations:
a. Conformity to the aircraft’s technical data.
b. Operational equipment necessary for safe operation of the aircraft.
c. Special qualifications required of the pilot and crewmembers. For flights that involve
long distances over which various weather conditions may be encountered, the pilot in command
also must be appropriately instrument-rated.
d. Aircraft weight limits.
e. Fuel and fuel distribution limits.
f. CG limits.
g. Maneuvers to which the aircraft is limited.
h. Limits on use of flight equipment, such as autopilots, etc.
i. Meteorological conditions to be avoided and the inspections required if inadvertently
encountered.
j. Airspeed limits.
k. Operation in the overweight condition must be conducted to avoid cities, towns,
villages, and congested areas, or any other areas where the flights might create hazardous
exposure to persons or property.
l. Runway selections, if considered necessary for safety.
m. Communications required with airport tower personnel to inform them prior to takeoff
or landing of the nonstandard condition of the aircraft.
n. When flight over another country is planned, the ASI must emphasize to the applicant
that special permission must be obtained from the country over which the aircraft will be
operated. In addition, section C of FAA Form 8130-7 should contain the statement, “Subject
to D(2) on reverse side.” (figure 4-13 of this order).
Note: When required to fly over an ICAO member state, the operating
limitations issued with the special flight permit should include, when
appropriate, the following statement: “This aircraft does not comply with the
international standards of Annex 8 to the Convention on International Civil
Aviation as follows: [describe here the item(s) which do not comply with the
airworthiness requirements for standard aircraft].”
o. Any other limitation that should be prescribed for the particular flight.
 
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I used to ferry planes around the SoCal basin for my boss as a PP. We were literally next door to the FSDO, all the inspectors knew me, knew exactly what was happening. Not one **** was given...ever.
Lots of things Henning says he did are not legal. The fact that nobody went after him or didn't catch him at them doesn't change the illegality of his actions. IOW, don't rely on what he got away with, because YMMV -- considerably.

Two issues here...

  1. Can a PPL fly a plane on a ferry permit? Yes.
  2. Can a PPL ferry someone else's plane to maintenance? No, says the Chief Counsel.
So, if it's your airplane, #2 doesn't matter, and once you get the ferry permit, you're good to go. If not, you can't do it.
 
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If he pays for the flight he would have standing to log it.
The Harrington and Stoner interpretations suggest otherwise. If the owner gets something out of it (i.e., relocation of the aircraft as desired by the owner), then there is a quid pro quo, and a PP is prohibited from providing such services in return for the use of the plane even if he pays the direct cost of the flight.
 
The Harrington and Stoner interpretations suggest otherwise. If the owner gets something out of it (i.e., relocation of the aircraft as desired by the owner), then there is a quid pro quo, and a PP is prohibited from providing such services in return for the use of the plane even if he pays the direct cost of the flight.

How is there a quid pro quo? The pilot paid to fly the plane, the plane got relocated. Where is the quid pro quo? What did the pilot get that he didn't pay for?
 
How is there a quid pro quo? The pilot paid to fly the plane, the plane got relocated. Where is the quid pro quo? What did the pilot get that he didn't pay for?
My understanding of the FAA's thinking is that the owner got the plane moved and the pilot got cheap flying time (in comparison to the full cost per hour if you owned or rented the plane) in return for performing that service. Beyond that, you'll have to ask the Chief Counsel.
 
My understanding of the FAA's thinking is that the owner got the plane moved and the pilot got cheap flying time (in comparison to the full cost per hour if you owned or rented the plane) in return for performing that service. Beyond that, you'll have to ask the Chief Counsel.

I'd be interested in seeing the interpretation or ruling where they determined against a PP who paid for the flight, or the rule that requires a PP rental to end at the airport of departure.
 
How is there a quid pro quo? The pilot paid to fly the plane, the plane got relocated. Where is the quid pro quo? What did the pilot get that he didn't pay for?

I'd be interested in seeing the interpretation or ruling where they determined against a PP who paid for the flight, or the rule that requires a PP rental to end at the airport of departure.

This is getting silly now. Why would a PP rent or pay to fly an airplane on a Special Flight Permit?. :rolleyes2: :nonod:
 
This is getting silly now. Why would a PP rent or pay to fly an airplane on a Special Flight Permit?. :rolleyes2: :nonod:
He's flying it to his A&P for a test drive and a pre-buy* inspection, and the seller says, "Fine, but you have to buy the gas."

***​

If the pilot pays all the direct costs, he logs the time, and he's not getting compensation. I see nothing in Harrington or Stoner to the contrary. It's arguable that he wouldn't be getting compensation even if the owner lets him burn the fuel that's already in the tank, since he's flying the plane for his own benefit, not the owner's.

"[T]he key consideration in determining if a private Pilot is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft for compensation or hire is whether the pilot's receipt of something of value is conditioned on the pilot operating the aircraft."

That's from Stoner.

*assuming that's "the work" we're talking about. Even if he's relocating the plane for the owner's benefit, he can either not log the time or pay the costs, per Harrington.
 
Try Administrator v. Murray.
The Board determined that he must have received other compensation, apparently because, "no one would do that for free" and other hand waiving. But, judging from the order, Murray's biggest problem might have been that he was apparently a dick.
 
Then that would not be prohibited, since the owner is getting nothing he wants in return.
Unless Harrington has been overruled, even if the owner does get something in return, it's still ok as long as the pilot pays the costs of the flight or doesn't log it.
 
Doesn't apply, that was about not having a 135 cert when hauling passengers to a party who had paid to be at the party including the ride in the ticket price.
That was also about he pilot having a business relationship with the owner of the bar, thus creating goodwill (compensation) which the pilot could trade on in the future in return for the bar owner getting his patrons transported (quid pro quo, Clarisse, quid pro quo).
 
The Board determined that he must have received other compensation, apparently because, "no one would do that for free" and other hand waiving.
The "other compensation" was goodwill in his prior existing business relationship with the bar owner. Thus, the pilot received goodwill in return for providing a service for the bar owner. Same deal if you ferry the plane for maintenance -- you get below-market flight time in return for providing a service for the aircraft owner. Ferrying a plane for maintenance was specifically mentioned as a quid pro quo issue in one of the Chief Counsel interpretations.
 
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