FAQ: DUI's and alcohol/drug abuse

Add on post to the topic at hand. I had a DWI when I was 20 years old, blew .0825. I'm now 44. No other DUI/DWI's and only 2 moving violations since then, and both which allowed for defensive driving to remove from insurance records.

I've been flying since I was 14, got my PPL when I was 19 and have had PPL since 1999. Last class 3 medical I was issued was in 2001, so after the DWI.

I went on a 20 year hiatus from flying, moved, didn't have a car, got married/kids, etc so didn't pick things back up until 2022 when I got current and started training for my IFR. I have 400 TT including complex, HP and TW endorsements. I took the written IFR test in May of 2023, got a 97, then was planning check ride. I hadn't yet addressed the medical as I didn't think it would be an issue, shame on me.

I got on Zoloft in 2020 coming out of Covid as my job involves lots of presentations and public speaking, which I do not enjoy. Being locked up and everything virtual, then going back to in person made something uncomfortable pretty much unbearable. Zoloft has helped this immensely.

However, during the Zoloft/SSRI deferral process which started 10/2022, which was a year in to the medical application process, a bad habit of drinking got worse and I checked myself into an IOP treatment to help get sober. Subsequent to this the Zoloft treating physician's notes showed that, at my own admission, I had been using alcohol to deal with work related stresses.

So earlier this month (June 2024) the FAA declined the class 3 for both use of an approved SSRI (Zoloft), needing more data from the treating physician and updated HIMS evaluations, as well as the standard alcohol HIMS process. I've already started the random screening, have been attending AA and have a sponsor. I also have been connected to some amazing other pilots that had histories of alcohol abuse, so I am grateful for that.

Given the BAC of .0825 over 24 years ago, my proactive seeking of treatment prior to FAA mandating, as well as having been issues a prior class 3, etc...any idea what next steps might look like?

Thanks in advance!
 
Agree with all of this. The FAA will commonly require 2-3 months minimum of 'monitoring' with a HIMS AME before consideration of any special issuance.

Also, Birds of a Feather is a great peer support program for just pilots!
robin ardoin said:
@Masmas1 If you are not participating in a recovery program (AA, Celebrate Recovery, …etc), start now and document twice weekly attendance. Show the FAA that you accept that you have an issue and are actively ‘treating’ it. This will be necessary regardless of the class of medical you seek. A class 3 Special Issue can be decided in OKC and may be quicker and can get you on your path for PPL and other ratings. Seek advice from a HIMS AME prior to starting any medical application.
Click to expand...
 
If you had only the DUI alone (> 5 years ago and BAC < 0.15) the AME could issue the certificate on day of exam as long as you provided supporting documentation that would get uploaded to your Med Express for FAA review.

Given the subsequent abuse/possible dependence on ETOH and concurrent use of antidepressant you will definitely need a special issuance, but if you're currently stable/unimpaired with low risk of recurrence and all of your evaluations and letters are favorable, you have a very high chance for recertification with SI and continued monitoring. Hope you're working with a good HIMS AME as you'll save yourself a ton of time to get back in the cockpit!

Good luck...even tho you're a Longhorns fan lol

GO BUCKS! O-H...
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
Add on post to the topic at hand. I had a DWI when I was 20 years old, blew .0825. I'm now 44. No other DUI/DWI's and only 2 moving violations since then, and both which allowed for defensive driving to remove from insurance records.

I've been flying since I was 14, got my PPL when I was 19 and have had PPL since 1999. Last class 3 medical I was issued was in 2001, so after the DWI.

I went on a 20 year hiatus from flying, moved, didn't have a car, got married/kids, etc so didn't pick things back up until 2022 when I got current and started training for my IFR. I have 400 TT including complex, HP and TW endorsements. I took the written IFR test in May of 2023, got a 97, then was planning check ride. I hadn't yet addressed the medical as I didn't think it would be an issue, shame on me.

I got on Zoloft in 2020 coming out of Covid as my job involves lots of presentations and public speaking, which I do not enjoy. Being locked up and everything virtual, then going back to in person made something uncomfortable pretty much unbearable. Zoloft has helped this immensely.

However, during the Zoloft/SSRI deferral process which started 10/2022, which was a year in to the medical application process, a bad habit of drinking got worse and I checked myself into an IOP treatment to help get sober. Subsequent to this the Zoloft treating physician's notes showed that, at my own admission, I had been using alcohol to deal with work related stresses.

So earlier this month (June 2024) the FAA declined the class 3 for both use of an approved SSRI (Zoloft), needing more data from the treating physician and updated HIMS evaluations, as well as the standard alcohol HIMS process. I've already started the random screening, have been attending AA and have a sponsor. I also have been connected to some amazing other pilots that had histories of alcohol abuse, so I am grateful for that.

Given the BAC of .0825 over 24 years ago, my proactive seeking of treatment prior to FAA mandating, as well as having been issues a prior class 3, etc...any idea what next steps might look like?

Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...
 
Basic Med DUI; HIMS process.

Posting because I've received so many divergent answers on this topic. And also consolidating the fragments of what I've read in posts here. Would be nice to have a consistent & consolidated answer.

I fly for personal/recreational purposes. Basic Med since 2018. No current medical certificate. No previous med cert suspensions/revocations/denials. My previous SI/medical cert expired in 2015.

2 DUI's.

1. 30+ years ago. BAC < .15. Always reported on medical applications. (Event was prior to 61.15 notification requirement)

2. Several months ago. BAC > .15. Pending plea down to reckless driving. No additional DL suspension beyond administrative minimum.

Result of state mandated eval.- Does not meet diagnosis criteria for any level of AUD. Because BAC > .15 completing 2 month early intervention education with abstinence and random UA's.

I have shared details above and spoken with:

HIMS AME. Response summary:
I don't know. I don't do Basic Med. I anticipate if you hear from Medical Branch at all, they will request the result/report of your state mandated alcohol eval.

AOPA Med Cert Services. Response summary:
You don't currently hold a medical certificate. Therefore FAA cannot suspend/revoke your medical cert. You self-certify under 61.53 (I chuckled at that one- everybody self-certifies to 61.53 each time they fly). You will hear nothing from Medical Branch.

AOPA Panel Attorney. Response summary:
I don't know how that works for Basic Med. Ask Medical Services or your AME.

Also having read some of Dr. Bruce's replies here, if I understand correctly the DUI process for a pilot already flying under Basic Med works something like this:

1. Send CFR 61.15 notification letter(s) to Regulatory Investigation Branch.
Check; In my case I did not meet 61.15 criteria for suspension/revocation of my pilot cert. No additional info requested from me.
*I sent no info beyond the minimum that was required by CFR 61.15. I had applied for a Restricted DL but the ignition interlock people became such a nuisance I opted to not complete the process and avoid driving during my DL suspension. My Restricted DL application was denied, so I had to report that as well per 61.15.

2. Regulatory Investigation Branch sends notification to Medical Branch. (Sounds like this is standard process?)
Check; I received curiously worded letter from Medical Branch that they had received my "documents" (I sent Medical nothing; presumably this is what they received from Investigations). I do not know specifically what information Investigations sends to Medical. Medical copiously expresses that I do not have a current medical application in MedXpress and that they will keep my "documents" on file should I decide to submit a medical application. So far they have not asked for additional information from me, nor have they stated anything about my eligibility for Basic Med.

3. Complete Basic Med online course.
Not so fast; Triggers NDR check, though inconsequential in my case since Medical Branch already has a notification from Investigations branch.

Now the questions-

4. Upon completion of Basic Med online course and awareness of my DUI from Investigation Branch and/or NDR, does Medical Branch sends request for additional info per CFR 68.11 in order to determine my continuing eligibility for Basic Med? Presumably same info as AME alcohol event report if I had submitted a medical cert application? And per 68.11, if I choose not to participate could suspend or revoke my pilot cert?

5. Based on my case (2 DUI's; 1 BAC > .15), does Medical Branch direct "Go straight to HIMS. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200?" Despite my eval that I do not meet diagnosis criteria for any level of AUD and I have successfully completed the prescribed program?
*The DSM V AUD diagnosis criteria lists essentially the same elements as 67.307(a)(4). I'm considering to ask my evaluator to include an addendum letter to my eval report stating that he concurs I do not meet the 67.307(a)(4) definition of "substance dependence" but I question if Medical Branch would accept that to satisfy CFR 68.9?

6. Comprehensive Medical Exam Checklist isn't due for another 2 years.

So at this point, I'm considering my plan of action:

1. Hold off on completing Basic Med online course to not trigger additional inquiry from Medical Branch per CFR 68.11.

2. Contemplating if holding off 2 years to complete online course makes any difference? I have no medical history or clinical diagnosis of substance dependence. CFR 68.9 specifies "within the previous 2 years." I still have to comply with DUI reporting requirements on my CMEC, pilot certificate applications, etc. But wondering if it reduces any relevance for Medical Branch wrt CFR 68.9 if my eval has yielded no substance dependence diagnosis AND it's been 2 years since the DUI (with no intervening alcohol-related offenses or medical issues)?

3. Wait and see regarding implementation of MOSAIC in 2025. Reportedly extends definition of LSA to 4-seaters < 3000 lbs. MTOW. Skip Basic Med and fly under Sport Pilot rules instead (no online course, CMEC, or HIMS/SI).

4. Go get my glider ratings.

Curious if any pilots or AME's here have first-hand experience with this situation when already flying under Basic Med.
 
Dana said:
Nope, not only your *most recent* medical must not be denied/suspended/revoked, but you must "Have been found eligible for the issuance of at least a third-class airman medical certificate at the time of his or her most recent application."

A deferral means you weren't "found eligible" so SP is out during the wait.
Click to expand...
And they check. I've been under Basic Med for ~6 years. No recent medical certificate. After reporting my recent DUI to Investigations Branch (61.15), Medical sent a letter to inform me that they received "documents" from me (Investigations Branch) and that I do not have a medical application in the system. Interestingly, but not a complete surprise, their letter referenced the APP ID from my last SI (not suspended, revoked, denied, deferred, or canceled) which expired of natural causes in 2015.
 
If I am starting from zero to get minimally PPL and have 1 dui arrest with conviction and 2nd dui arrest that was reduced to reckless driving, does that mean direct to HIMS?

For what it's worth, both incidents are over 10 years ago. I do not drink now.

I have not started with any training due to this because the stuff I read on here, it seems like it will take two or more years to even get a SI, then training and flight school.

Getting a PPL seemed like something I could afford to do with a wife and 3 kids, but now I don't know what I am looking at as far as costs and what to expect if I do attempt to continue this path.
 
Frak, repost this Dce 23 post under Medical Matters. More folks will see it there, rather than here.
 
seerwright said:
Hi. I've read a bunch of DUI posts on here and am currently in review with FAA. Posting to 1) share for others in a similar situation and 2) to see if anyone has recently been decisioned by FAA and how long that took?
  • Never held a FAA medical
  • 2002 - DUI with > 0.15, accident involved
  • 2022 Sep - Saw a HIMS AME
  • 2022 Oct - Began alcohol abstinence and random testing
  • 2023 Mar - After 7 negative random tests, two observed, one blood, submitted packet to FAA
  • 2023 Apr - FAA received packet
  • 2023 Jun - As of today, still pending decision, so just short of three months
The testing has continued, of course, and I'm now up to 12 random tests, all are EtG + drug panel. Curious if anyone has been in a similar situation and recently got a decision (any decision) from FAA medical recently? If so, how long did it take?

Anyway, like most people, I was quite surprised to learn that a DUI from two decades ago had this much weight considering 1) no legal issues with alcohol or anything else in the interim, 2) clean lifetime DMV record (except the DUI), 3) long job history, 4) long marriage. Obviously they have their own ways of determining risk, but someone who truly has a substance abuse problem can't conceal that for two decades.
Click to expand...
Updating my progress and closing the loop for anyone that's in a similar situation:
  • Never held a FAA medical
  • 2002 - DUI with > 0.15, accident involved
  • 2022 Sep - Saw a HIMS AME
  • 2022 Oct - Began alcohol abstinence and random testing
  • 2023 Mar - Submitted packet to FAA with initial drug/alcohol testing results
  • 2023 Nov - FAA responded with denial, but said I could reapply if I,
    • Worked with a HIMS AME
    • Attended intensive inpatient or outpatient therapy for alcohol and drug dependence
    • Attended 2+ weekly in-person AA meetings
    • Worked with AA sponsor
    • Participated in group therapy following intensive therapy
    • Continued random and alcohol drug testing
  • 2024 Apr - Attended an intensive outpatient program (IOP), ~10 weeks
  • 2024 Apr - Began attending AA, found a sponsor
  • 2024 Jun - Began attending group therapy
  • 2024 Jul - Resubmitted packet to FAA
  • 2025 Feb - Special Issuance received for 3rd class medical
Total cost has been about $11k and 2.4 years. For the foreseeable future, measured in years, I will continue to have to do random testing, HIMS check-ins, AA, and group therapy. There is a step-down program per the FAA I can start tracking to. Also, it should go without saying that I won't ever drink again.

It's been a trip, but I already resumed flight training and will complete in the next couple of months! Getting an SI was definitely the objective, but a significant side benefit is what I've learned about myself going through AA, IOP, and group. It may sound bizarre to someone who feels like AA is a place for "other people," but I'm 100% certain that the introspection one does in AA - if taken seriously - is applicable to so many other issues: drugs, co-dependency, smoking, gambling addiction, porn, etc. - whatever you're powerless to control. I didn't expect to be doing all this, but I can honestly say I'm a better person for having done it (and I can fly a plane, too!)

Anyway, I hope this helps.
 
Seerwright makes some very good points inhis last paragraph.

The AA process addresses many addictions, and when you reach the point that you understand what you need to do, you are a better person. I know addicts of both sexs.

I can personally certify that wives and children are much happier when the lifestyle changes, and tend to be very supportive when the results seem to be lasting. I have been close friends with a number of families with addiction problems, including some failures.

If you start cheating, family support fades, so make certain that you stay true to yourself, and follow the rules.

I have been close friends of pilots who wee successful AA members. I am currently 90, they were older than I, so not surprisingly, they are all dead now, but non addiction related.

People whom are antagonistic toward rules have trouble with AA, failing to read closely to find the actual goals of the organization, the backbone of which is the willingness to call or be called any time mental help is needed. 20 years after his last drink, one pilot still called for encouragement and support from time to time. You got to the problem alone, the surest way out is help from those who have been there. Conversely, you owe them the same help when temptation arises.

Congratulations, Seerwright, wishing you all the rest of your years in remission.
 
I know this will be a repeat of many other repeats on the same topic...

I have a complicated situation related to DUIs in general...

First, I had a DUI - Drug conviction over 20 years ago in 2004 (FAA knows about reported on medical).

Second, I had student certificate and 3rd class medical certificate revoked for failing to disclose on medical application a separate incident (DUI arrest - no charges filed in 2021). During this incident I had my driver's license suspended - 1 year - for test refusal (reason for refusal is of no concern, I know but it happened). I was subsequently pulled over for speeding (not knowing DL was suspended at the time) and arrested - no charges filed as I was able to get license reinstated immediately and around the 1 year reinstatement timeframe (needed just SR22 for reinstatement). So, for both the DUI and driving on suspended license due to refusal no charges filed... Again, DUI arrest and the subsequent arrest for driving with suspended license for refusal were required to be on my medical (I clearly understand this to be the case now after careful reading of the instructions.... my error!) but they were not. This complicates things a bit now... I have 2 DUI incidents in my lifetme (one for DUI Drugs and other for DUI alcohol, the latter convicted and the former no charges filed).

The kicker... Sometime during my first DUI Drugs I also got BAC 0.10% (if you are following) this means I had both DUI Drugs and classic DUI in 2004 (in eyes of FAA) though the classic DUI was dismissed and only charged with the DUI Drugs. In effect, could this mean 3 DUI incidents?

Lastly, I completed all my private pilot training and was due (endorsed) for checkride as the emergency letter of revocation came in mail!!!

Fast forward to today... It's been over 1 year revocation period and I would like to begin the process of getting 3rd class medical then BasicMed there on after.

I got the popcorn ready please entertain me with reality.
 
Last edited:
DeltaCharlie172 said:
I know this will be a repeat of many other repeats on the same topic...

I have a complicated situation related to DUIs in general...

First, I had a DUI - Drug conviction over 20 years ago in 2004 (FAA knows about reported on medical).

Second, I had student certificate and 3rd class medical certificate revoked for failing to disclose on medical application a separate incident (DUI arrest - no charges filed in 2021). During this incident I had my driver's license suspended - 1 year - for test refusal (reason for refusal is of no concern, I know but it happened). I was subsequently pulled over for speeding (not knowing DL was suspended at the time) and arrested - no charges filed as I was able to get license reinstated immediately and around the 1 year reinstatement timeframe (needed just SR22 for reinstatement). So, for both the DUI and driving on suspended license due to refusal no charges filed... Again, DUI arrest and the subsequent arrest for driving with suspended license for refusal were required to be on my medical (I clearly understand this to be the case now after careful reading of the instructions.... my error!) but they were not. This complicates things a bit now... I have 2 DUI incidents in my lifetme (one for DUI Drugs and other for DUI alcohol, the latter convicted and the former no charges filed).

The kicker... Sometime during my first DUI Drugs I also got BAC 0.10% (if you are following) this means I had both DUI Drugs and classic DUI in 2004 (in eyes of FAA) though the classic DUI was dismissed and only charged with the DUI Drugs. In effect, could this mean 3 DUI incidents?

Lastly, I completed all my private pilot training and was due (endorsed) for checkride as the emergency letter of revocation came in mail!!!

Fast forward to today... It's been over 1 year revocation period and I would like to begin the process of getting 3rd class medical then BasicMed there on after.

I got the popcorn ready please entertain me with reality.
Click to expand...
Consult with a good HIMS AME before attempting this through a standard AME. Get ALL of the arrest/court records. Might as well start recovery based meetings and arranging, through a HIMS AME, random urine screens. It will be a long ride.
 
DeltaCharlie172 said:
I know this will be a repeat of many other repeats on the same topic...

I have a complicated situation related to DUIs in general...

First, I had a DUI - Drug conviction over 20 years ago in 2004 (FAA knows about reported on medical).
Click to expand...

My full saga is a couple of messages up. Link here:
S

Post in thread 'FAQ: DUI's and alcohol/drug abuse'

seerwright said:
Hi. I've read a bunch of DUI posts on here and am currently in review with FAA. Posting to 1) share for others in a similar situation and 2) to see if anyone has recently been decisioned by FAA and how long that took?
  • Never held a FAA medical
  • 2002 - DUI with > 0.15, accident involved
  • 2022 Sep - Saw a HIMS AME
  • 2022 Oct - Began alcohol abstinence and random testing
  • 2023 Mar - After 7 negative random tests, two observed, one blood, submitted packet to FAA
  • 2023 Apr - FAA received packet
  • 2023 Jun - As of today, still pending decision, so just short of three months...
Click to expand...
  • Like

It took me 2.5 years, but it didn't have to. My AME didn't think they would send me through IOP, AA, group, etc., etc., so there was an extra 12-15 months on a round trip to FAA plus me deliberating on a few things. Here's how I could have sped it up and it's something you might consider, depending on 1) how bad you want it and 2) what your AME says.

Day 1: Find an AME and ask him/her what the full treatment regimen is and get started immediately. I have a hunch it will look like what I did plus maybe a psych, which some people have to do. I didn't.
Day 2: start random alcohol and drug testing, start an IOP program (3 nights per week, 3 hours per night), start AA (2 in-person per week, and get a sponsor.
Day 70: you'll be approaching the end of IOP @ 10 weeks (depends on what your counselor says) and you'll have 2+ months AA
Day 71: transition to after care
Day 120: you will have been at this for four months, which is the min to send in an appeal (according to my AME). By this point, you will be able to say you've completed IOP, started after care, have been doing AA for four months, and have 4 months of negative alcohol and drug tests. Get an AA sponsor early so you can ask them for a letter of recommendation.
[wait 9 months for the FAA to reply]
13 month mark: you will now have 14 tests over 12 months, which is what they wanted to see for me, and you will have completed the typical therapies.

This is the part where I don't know what would happen next, but I think I the approach I described would have resulted in an SI for me in half the time. You have a different past and you're a different person, so who knows. In any case, if your AME thinks you have a shot, I would definitely start all that treatment on day 2.
 
seerwright said:
My full saga is a couple of messages up. Link here:
S

Post in thread 'FAQ: DUI's and alcohol/drug abuse'

seerwright said:
Hi. I've read a bunch of DUI posts on here and am currently in review with FAA. Posting to 1) share for others in a similar situation and 2) to see if anyone has recently been decisioned by FAA and how long that took?
  • Never held a FAA medical
  • 2002 - DUI with > 0.15, accident involved
  • 2022 Sep - Saw a HIMS AME
  • 2022 Oct - Began alcohol abstinence and random testing
  • 2023 Mar - After 7 negative random tests, two observed, one blood, submitted packet to FAA
  • 2023 Apr - FAA received packet
  • 2023 Jun - As of today, still pending decision, so just short of three months...
Click to expand...
  • Like

It took me 2.5 years, but it didn't have to. My AME didn't think they would send me through IOP, AA, group, etc., etc., so there was an extra 12-15 months on a round trip to FAA plus me deliberating on a few things. Here's how I could have sped it up and it's something you might consider, depending on 1) how bad you want it and 2) what your AME says.

Day 1: Find an AME and ask him/her what the full treatment regimen is and get started immediately. I have a hunch it will look like what I did plus maybe a psych, which some people have to do. I didn't.
Day 2: start random alcohol and drug testing, start an IOP program (3 nights per week, 3 hours per night), start AA (2 in-person per week, and get a sponsor.
Day 70: you'll be approaching the end of IOP @ 10 weeks (depends on what your counselor says) and you'll have 2+ months AA
Day 71: transition to after care
Day 120: you will have been at this for four months, which is the min to send in an appeal (according to my AME). By this point, you will be able to say you've completed IOP, started after care, have been doing AA for four months, and have 4 months of negative alcohol and drug tests. Get an AA sponsor early so you can ask them for a letter of recommendation.
[wait 9 months for the FAA to reply]
13 month mark: you will now have 14 tests over 12 months, which is what they wanted to see for me, and you will have completed the typical therapies.

This is the part where I don't know what would happen next, but I think I the approach I described would have resulted in an SI for me in half the time. You have a different past and you're a different person, so who knows. In any case, if your AME thinks you have a shot, I would definitely start all that treatment on day 2.
Click to expand...
Looks like your BAC was 0.15%... I know that when it's that high it makes a difference. My BAC was 0.10%.
 
DeltaCharlie172 said:
Looks like your BAC was 0.15%... I know that when it's that high it makes a difference. My BAC was 0.10%.
Click to expand...
True. A BAC of less than 0.15 is treated very differently from 0.15 or more, but there are a lot of other factors FAA considers. In your case, you have multiple incidents, multiple substances, and a failure to discloses, so FAA and your AME may be less interested in the level of intoxication and more interested in the strength of the pattern.

By the way, I'm not saying there is a pattern and I'm not trying to be depressing, just highlighting where the focus might be based on my HIMS experience. I'm not a physician and I don't work for the FAA - sorting this out with your AME is your best path (probably the only path).

On the positive side, I have been in group therapy with a bunch of airline pilots where there are more complex cases being treated and resolved. There is likely a way through this if you are sincere, motivated, and patient. Best of luck to you.
 
Doesn't any alcohol/drug screening need to be at the request of HIMS AME? In other words, I can't just go and submit to a alcohol/drug test and it counts for anything... Basically can't do a alcohol/drug test and say hey FAA look I'm clean/recovered/abstinent/non-dependent. Kind of like the difference in definition between "dependence" in the medical field and "dependence" in FAA parlance/legalese.
 
Last edited:
DeltaCharlie172 said:
Doesn't any alcohol/drug screening need to be at the request of HIMS AME? In other words, I can't just go and submit to a alcohol/drug test and it counts for anything....
Click to expand...

No. You can start a random testing program whenever you want; the FAA will want it to align with there protocol, which I believe is a 10-panel 14 in 12 months regimen.
 
TCABM said:
No. You can start a random testing program whenever you want; the FAA will want it to align with there protocol, which I believe is a 10-panel 14 in 12 months regimen.
Click to expand...
Not sure if I agree that this is true at all... I would bet my bottom dollar on this being incorrect but what do I know.

DOT regs for FMCSA (commercial driver) require chain of custody drug testing. Collection site must under go specialized training, employer must have a drug testing program - incorporating random testing both drug/alcohol, MRO must review samples, not to mention the lab has to be DOT-approved.... Hell, even to get commercial drivers license the person must see a medical examiner that is registered in the national registry with FMCSA much like an AME has to be registered with FAA (or whom ever) to complete FAA medical exams (not BasicMed). Why would the FAA be any less strict?
 
Last edited:
DeltaCharlie172 said:
Not sure if I agree that this is true at all... I would bet my bottom dollar on this being incorrect but what do I know.

DOT regs for FMCSA (commercial driver) require chain of custody drug testing. Collection site must under go specialized training, employer must have a drug testing program - incorporating random testing both drug/alcohol, MRO must review samples, not to mention the lab has to be DOT-approved.... Hell, even to get commercial drivers license the person must see a medical examiner that is registered in the national registry with FMCSA much like an AME has to be registered with FAA (or whom ever) to complete FAA medical exams (not BasicMed). Why would the FAA be any less strict?
Click to expand...
There's no chain of custody issue, we're not prosecuting a criminal action. There are lots of FAA approved labs that take the sample and analyze it in house. My old AME had a cottage industry of doing FAA testing in his office (which allowed him to give a 50% discount to pilots on the regular medical exams). You don't need the FAA's approval to get tested. I believe Bruce puts the guys he's working with through the testing so he can show they are clean before the FAA gets involved.
 
flyingron said:
There's no chain of custody issue, we're not prosecuting a criminal action. There are lots of FAA approved labs that take the sample and analyze it in house. My old AME had a cottage industry of doing FAA testing in his office (which allowed him to give a 50% discount to pilots on the regular medical exams). You don't need the FAA's approval to get tested. I believe Bruce puts the guys he's working with through the testing so he can show they are clean before the FAA gets involved.
Click to expand...
Ok... So I just go do random alcohol/drug testing? Have my PCP run tests? CLIA waived tests done in-office?

I still cannot believe it's that easy... FYI - the DOT regs for commercial driver drug/alcohol testing is not for criminal activity it's a program to keep the roads safe like FAA which "mandates drug testing for individuals involved in safety-sensitive aviation positions, such as pilots, air traffic controllers, and maintenance technicians." All chain of custody and at same standard as DOT related testing.

FAA requires 5 drugs (THC, COC, PCP, OPI & AMP) - listed on the Federal Drug Testing Custody and Control Form (Applies to all DOT agencies - FAA, FMCSA, FRA, FTA, PHMSA, and USCG).

Sorry if I take that with a grain of salt but doesn't seem right to me.
 
Last edited:
DeltaCharlie172 said:
Ok... So I just go do random alcohol/drug testing? Have my PCP run tests? CLIA waived tests done in-office?
Click to expand...
I didn't say that. You aren't listening.

We're not talking about the random program required for the transportation workers (but you're overflowing what's involved in even that). We're talking about ETG testing for an applicant proving alcohol abstinence as part of his recovery.
 
DeltaCharlie172 said:
Doesn't any alcohol/drug screening need to be at the request of HIMS AME? In other words, I can't just go and submit to a alcohol/drug test and it counts for anything... Basically can't do a alcohol/drug test and say hey FAA look I'm clean/recovered/abstinent/non-dependent. Kind of like the difference in definition between "dependence" in the medical field and "dependence" in FAA parlance/legalese.
Click to expand...
I don't think you can just go and do this on your own because the place that performs the testing will need to send every result directly to your AME, so there needs to be a relationship between your testing company and your AME. In my case, my AME told me who I would use and they set me up on random notifications, a coordinator / point of contact, and they got my billing info. Roughly every 3-4 weeks I get a text message at 6am that says I have 12 hours to find a place and pee in a cup. They test for alcohol and 10 other drugs. When they receive the results, they send those results to two destinations: me and my AME.

That said, you can't just configure this yourself. You need to go through a HIMS AME. There may be another way, but I'm not aware of it.
 
flyingron said:
I didn't say that. You aren't listening.

We're not talking about the random program required for the transportation workers (but you're overflowing what's involved in even that). We're talking about ETG testing for an applicant proving alcohol abstinence as part of his recovery.
Click to expand...
I am just a little confused... Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd rather error on the side of caution. Mostly because EtG screens for alcohol usually up to 48 hours, while PEth detects up to 28 daysish. I do not see how EtG or even PEth can ever be used to determine abstinence without it being random or part of a program or ordered/administered/overseen by AME. Again, maybe I'm wrong here but I do not see the logic in self-random EtG testing to prove abstinence.

FYI - Hate to be a stickler but.... the FAA is an agency under DOT. The DOT Drug Testing Program is also for FAA/FMCSA/FRA/USGC/etc not just "transportation workers" as you imply. Some call it FAA DOT Drug Test, but really it's a DOT Drug Test. Guess we should get back to the basics on terminaology because it can be confusing when we can't agree on the basics, thus compounding the confusion... Bringing up the DOT Drug Testing to begin with was to show that there are a lot of regualtions (some are completely unaware of) in general, not that it applied to this situation. Considering I am directly involved in DOT Drug Testing for DOT/FMCSA/FAA/USGC I would say you are wrong to also imply that "you're overflowing what's involved in even that [DOT Drug Testing]." Again, we can't talk about a subject-matter without agreeing on the very basics of the subject-matter... Form for your reference: https://ai.fmcsa.dot.gov/NewEntrant/MC/Examples/ControledSubstCCFform.pdf
 
Last edited:
ETG and Peth are both non fda approved tests. As administered by the faa do NOTHING to prove abstinence.

They want chain of custody, but it doesn’t matter.

It’s a 10 panel PLUS ETG, which is ETG and ETS. A split sample is taken, but not used.

It is FAR LESS STRICT than DOT testing. It’s a scam of a method really.

AMEs don’t understand it, there are no unbiased experts to rely upon, most of the medical world scoffs at its uselessness. There is no MRO involvement at all, they don’t know a thing about it.

CMS doesn’t care about the CLIA violations which are abundant and obvious (reference the CLIA SOM).

It’s main use is like a placebo truth serum… gaslight you into thinking it’s effective so you rat yourself out.
 
Tools said:
ETG and Peth are both non fda approved tests. As administered by the faa do NOTHING to prove abstinence.

They want chain of custody, but it doesn’t matter.

It’s a 10 panel PLUS ETG, which is ETG and ETS. A split sample is taken, but not used.

It is FAR LESS STRICT than DOT testing. It’s a scam of a method really.

AMEs don’t understand it, there are no unbiased experts to rely upon, most of the medical world scoffs at its uselessness. There is no MRO involvement at all, they don’t know a thing about it.

CMS doesn’t care about the CLIA violations which are abundant and obvious (reference the CLIA SOM).

It’s main use is like a placebo truth serum… gaslight you into thinking it’s effective so you rat yourself out.
Click to expand...
That's my thoughts on both EtG and PEth... Then again, many tests aren't FDA approved. I have heard people getting 48 notice for PEth, which is blood test for a biomarker. I guess how does one go about getting a chain of custody drug/alcohol test as I would imagine some kind of MRO or 3rd party needs to be involved at some level or it's not really chain of custody. If I could self-randomize a drug/alcohol test - I can just go complete a requisition form right now and send to labs for my own review - would defeat the purpose of proving abstinence IMO.

The type of test for alcohol makes sense - EtG and EtS which test for metabolites of ethanol. The lab I know of has a 9 panel not a 10 panel. Only 10+ panel I am aware of is CLIA waived in-office tests (or lab). Which test would be suggested from this lab: https://testdirectory.questdiagnostics.com/ The three tests I was just going to get ran with my PCP: Test codes: 39429 & 12198 & 90418 - each running about $200!! (mostly out of curiousity more than anything)
 
Last edited:
All it needs is for a AME to say it’s kosher… FAA don’t care. There ain’t legal nothing to any of this. Not medical either… you guessed it, it’s ADMINISTRATIVE.

The airlines have taken advantage of this and weaponized the process, much the same as they have FFDs.

And it doesn’t prove abstinence, it just proves you complied with their administrative process.
 
Well sounds like more of an issue to address with good aviation lawyer and an understanding HIMS AME... One AME I did speak to said that there is just too much bureaucracy in the whole process and said if things are packaged right you are golden. I'm starting to read between the lines now.
 
TCABM said:
Apparently you’re not familiar with California sober.

www.addictioncenter.com

What Does It Mean To Be "California Sober?"

People who are "California sober," also known as "Cali sober," either moderately use or forgo alcohol and "hard" drugs.
www.addictioncenter.com www.addictioncenter.com
Click to expand...
LOL. Around here, we call it the 'marijuana maintenance program'. For a true alcoholic or addict, it guarantees a poor outcome.
 
GoFlightMed said:
Hi, HIMS AME here.

I wrote this Blog article about DUI reporting, let me know if you find it helpful.
Click to expand...
Your FAQs state, “How long after a DUI can I fly again? The timeline varies but typically takes 6-12 months from initial HIMS consultation to FAA Special Issuance. Factors include your treatment completion, required evaluations, and FAA processing times. Go Flight Medicine works to streamline the process while ensuring all requirements are met.”

Typical / 6 months / special issuance?
 
Clip4 said:
Your FAQs state, “How long after a DUI can I fly again? The timeline varies but typically takes 6-12 months from initial HIMS consultation to FAA Special Issuance. Factors include your treatment completion, required evaluations, and FAA processing times. Go Flight Medicine works to streamline the process while ensuring all requirements are met.”

Typical / 6 months / special issuance?
Click to expand...
If I was writing this a year ago, I would have written "typically takes 12-18 months..." but the FAA has been doing final reviews and turning around cases much quicker in the last 6 months.
 
Back
Top