Failed MEPS drug test 6 years ago, can i still be a commerical Pilot?

[flightdreams]

When I was young and stupid I chose to smoke weed for the first time a month before I was going for my military MEPS screening, thinking I would be fine since I don't do any drugs. I ended up failing my drug screening and have never forgiven myself since. I am a private pilot with 100 hours of flight time and a business degree. I desperately want to start a career as a commercial pilot and start my training, but I don't know if that test I failed over 6 years ago for MEPS will hinder me from getting a job with the airlines once I achieve my 1500 hours. Will they find out? Any thoughts or comments would be much appreciated, thank you.

 

[poadeleted20]

The good news is that you don't have a criminal drug conviction on your record -- that would pretty much bury you. The bad news is that you will have to answer "yes" on questions 18n and 18s on your FAA medical application because you failed a drug test and you were medically rejected for military service. So yes, they will find out (if you lie about it, you risk far more than just not getting an FAA medical, and the failure is in an official government record which the FAA can access), but it is still possible to get FAA medical certification. The process is going to be expensive, including a 4-axis psych eval from a HIMS-certified psychiatrist, and will not be covered by medical insurance. The expert on that is Dr. Bruce Chien, whom you can find either on the AOPA Forums or his website.

As for flying for the airlines, frankly, the outlook is bleak. Since a second drug failure would essentially render you useless to them, they will not want to invest the time and money to hire and train you as long as they have other equally well qualified applicants with no drug/alcohol issues in their record. There are, of course, other flying jobs out there which are still reasonably possible with only one drug test failure quite a few years ago if you're willing to go that route.

Note that I'm trying to be as objective as I can -- just the facts, with no judgment either way. It's just that aviation is extremely intolerant of both bad decisions and substance abuse, and that's what you have in your record.

 

[Gary F]

But it will not prevent you from running for and possibly winning the Presidency of the USA.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

The question becomes - how did you get the medical you have now? And how are you going to deal with the failure to disclose when you got it?

 

[Fearless Tower]

The good news is that you don't have a criminal drug conviction on your record -- that would pretty much bury you. The bad news is that you will have to answer "yes" on questions 18n and 18s on your FAA medical application because you failed a drug test and you were medically rejected for military service. So yes, they will find out (if you lie about it, you risk far more than just not getting an FAA medical, and the failure is in an official government record which the FAA can access), but it is still possible to get FAA medical certification.

He may have a bigger problem Ron. OP said they are already a Private Pilot, which means they already hold a medical and I'm guessing from the question that they didn't disclose it on their original medical. If so, they would have to come clean.

 

[poadeleted20]

He may have a bigger problem Ron. OP said they are already a Private Pilot, which means they already hold a medical and I'm guessing from the question that they didn't disclose it on their original medical. If so, they would have to come clean.

If so, that's a big legal "oops" and the OP needs legal as well as medical advice. Suggest finding a good aviation attorney and telling all to that attorney before going further. If the FAA finds out about that failed drug test any other way, it's good-bye to all FAA certificates, and no airline is ever going to hire someone whose tickets were revoked for a 61.59 violation -- probably no non-121 operator, either.

 

[Alexb2000]

At this point I'd say keep your nose clean and your mouth shut. You could've asked for a retest at MEPS, it could have been from second hand exposure, etc. You have a medical now, worry about protecting it (no DUI's etc) and move forward.

BTW they asked us those "Have you EVER..." Questions at MEPS. We had two kinds of people come out of that, liars, and those that changed their minds about going in the service.

You're a pilot, make the decision if you want to remain one or shoot yourself in the head.

 

[Velocity173]

At this point I'd say keep your nose clean and your mouth shut. You could've asked for a retest at MEPS, it could have been from second hand exposure, etc. You have a medical now, worry about protecting it (no DUI's etc) and move forward.

BTW they asked us those "Have you EVER..." Questions at MEPS. We had two kinds of people come out of that, liars, and those that changed their minds about going in the service.

You're a pilot, make the decision if you want to remain one or shoot yourself in the head.

I didn't lie on any of the questions and I joined the service.

 

[Alexb2000]

I didn't lie on any of the questions and I joined the service.

OK, sheesh. So THREE types come out of MEPS, liars, those that changed their mind, AND McFly.

 

[poadeleted20]

OK, sheesh. So THREE types come out of MEPS, liars, those that changed their mind, AND McFly.

...and me, and a ton of other folks. In any event, the OP's test failure is on a record the FAA can access, and lying about that is not a good long-term strategy.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

It's a good thing Chuck Yeager and Bob Hoover were not checked when they were hanging out at the bar in the desert where Yeager broke his ribs. They were half gassed a lot of the time. I'm confused about when you smoked a joint and when you were tested. It should have been out of your system a long time by then. Could easily have been a false positive. If one thinks current airline pilots don't get a buzz on or smoke a joint occasionally they've got another think coming.

 

[poadeleted20]

It's a good thing Chuck Yeager and Bob Hoover were not checked when they were hanging out at the bar in the desert where Yeager broke his ribs. They were half gassed a lot of the time.

This isn't 1947, and they weren't using an illegal substance.

I'm confused about when you smoked a joint and when you were tested. It should have been out of your system a long time by then. Could easily have been a false positive.

Irrelevant at this point -- it's documented history that cannot be rewritten

If one thinks current airline pilots don't get a buzz on or smoke a joint occasionally they've got another think coming.

What other folks have done without getting caught is also irrelevant. This is a case of a failed drug test being on record, and that's a big red flag for airline hiring.

 

[Alexb2000]

So I can publicly admit MJ use and be commander and chief, but I can't be a single stripper and risk my life for my country or take a POS C150 around the pattern? Definition of asinine.

O.P.- be smart, keep your nose clean, and keep flying. People here care more about absolutism than realistic advice.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

So I can publicly admit MJ use and be commander and chief, but I can't be a single stripper and risk my life for my country or take a POS C150 around the pattern? Definition of asinine.

O.P.- be smart, keep your nose clean, and keep flying. People here care more about absolutism than realistic advice.

Ahhhhmen!

 

[flightdreams]

Thanks all for your input. I received my medical 7 months before i went into MEPS when i started my flight training and was clean from the start and throughout my training. I worked hard and got my private license right before i was supposed to leave for Arizona ANG. I took a few puffs of a joint at my going away party a month before MEPS. After MEPS I received the letter that i had failed the test and decided to continue flying private to build hours and continue my education and get my business degree and haven't been around anything illegal since that experience. Since then, if i want to continue flying i need to update my medical, this time around would i need to disclose that i failed a drug test 7 years ago for MEPS? And how will that effect my future progress in becoming an airline pilot. I don't want to spend all this money and take out loans, plus the time, if i have no chance of getting hired once i reach my 1500 hours. Thanks..

 

[poadeleted20]

Since then, if i want to continue flying i need to update my medical, this time around would i need to disclose that i failed a drug test 7 years ago for MEPS?

Yes. If you read the basic question for Block 18 carefully, you'll see it asks "Have you ever..."

And how will that effect my future progress in becoming an airline pilot. I don't want to spend all this money and take out loans, plus the time, if i have no chance of getting hired once i reach my 1500 hours. Thanks..

As I said above, it probably sinks your plans to fly for a Part 121 air carrier. If in the future they get short enough on candidates, one ancient test failure might possibly be overcome, but absolutely no guarantee on that.

The good news in this is that since no criminal charges were involved, and you have not yet lied on an official medical application (which would violate both FAA regulations and Federal criminal law -- 18 USC 1001, to be exact), it's possible to fix this and keep flying, and fly professionally in the future, even if the prospects for flying Part 121 are dim.

BTW, this is a speech I used to give to the entering freshman in the collegiate aviation program of which I was director for five years. We recognized the unfortunate fact that 18-year-olds on their own for the first time sometimes make bad choices, and wanted to try to preempt such bad decisions before they happened. The entire aviation faculty would literally stand behind me for that speech (which also covered DUI's) just to emphasize the gravity of the issue.

 

[paflyer]

But it will not prevent you from running for and possibly winning the Presidency of the USA.

It may be a plus.

 

[Old Geek]

It's a good thing Chuck Yeager and Bob Hoover were not checked when they were hanging out at the bar in the desert where Yeager broke his ribs. They were half gassed a lot of the time. I'm confused about when you smoked a joint and when you were tested. It should have been out of your system a long time by then. Could easily have been a false positive. If one thinks current airline pilots don't get a buzz on or smoke a joint occasionally they've got another think coming.

This. I once knew a Korea-era fighter pilot. He'd flown all the 100-series fighters and clearly knew his stuff. I asked him if he'd ever seen a UFO as his service time matched the first appearance of UFO's. His reply - "We were always so drunk or hungover that we couldn't recognize a UFO if we saw one".

 

[Unregistered]

Well with the "have you ever failed a pre employment..."

I know for a DOT pre-employment test the failures arnt recorded so its your call on how you want to play it, but for say a 121/135 pre employment screen it ain't reported anywhere so it's a honesty policy question

Not sure, I'd look into if MEPS is recorded anywhere.

 

[miko444]

1year ago , i had my medical card marijuana prescription just for 6months.but now im clean .im just worried if the FAA would know about it or it gonna affect it or disqualified me when im going to pass the 1st class medical test . thanks

 

[poadeleted20]

Not sure, I'd look into if MEPS is recorded anywhere.

It most certainly is.

 

[poadeleted20]

1year ago , i had my medical card marijuana prescription just for 6months.but now im clean .im just worried if the FAA would know about it or it gonna affect it or disqualified me when im going to pass the 1st class medical test . thanks

What will disqualify you is a "yes" answer to the "Have you ever..." question about illegal drug use in Block 18. Since marijuana use has been and remains illegal at the Federal level, if you actually used the stuff, you would have to answer "yes" to avoid violating 14 CFR 61.59 and 18 USC 1001. Furthermore, the visit to the physician who issued that prescription must by reported, too, including the reason for that visit and what was done, which will also open that particular can of worms.

Will they find out if you lie about any of that?
Can they find out if you had that card or made an unreported visit to a health professional?

 

[stratobee]

Lucky I don't run an airline. I'd much rather hire someone who's once or twice had MJ or tried coke, than the squeaky clean candidate. Squeaky clean screams suspicious to me.

It's a bit like back in the days of my youth when heavy metal was big. All the old people thought the long haired rockers were thugs and locked their doors. When in fact I've never met a long haired metal fan that isn't the nicest. They're nerds. It's the short cropped/crew cut ones you have to look out for. They're the ones that go psycho on your a*s.

 

[Alexb2000]

Wouldn't a drug test done prior to swearing in be protected under HIPPA?

I would think so.

 

[Matthew]

Wouldn't a drug test done prior to swearing in be protected under HIPPA?

I would think so.

I thought that by signing your medical you waive that and give FAA permission to snoop.

 

[poadeleted20]

I thought that by signing your medical you waive that and give FAA permission to snoop.

Matthew is essentially correct.

 

[Alexb2000]

I thought that by signing your medical you waive that and give FAA permission to snoop.

Shaky ground actually getting the information though. The military has a form of HIPPA for personnel that has an approval process. I can't imagine the FAA has an open database connection to all military medical records. Also, how the Military handles non-personnel is a mystery to me, but I'm sure they don't just open that up either. Could someone given the proper motivation and time find something, sure, like anything. I know a couple of guys that had disqualifying conditions in the military get their tickets and they've been flying for years, no issues. Just like a lot of guys with a top secret that would be disqualified if the investigator had interrogated everyone in their High School class vs. the people they put on the list. No one wants to look that hard at people unless it is really required, even the self-righteous often disappoint. This is about the perception of due diligence, not a CIA level witch hunt.

 

[poadeleted20]

Shaky ground actually getting the information though. The military has a form of HIPPA for personnel that has an approval process. I can't imagine the FAA has an open database connection to all military medical records.

No, they don't, but they still have the authority to get them.

Also, how the Military handles non-personnel is a mystery to me, but I'm sure they don't just open that up either.

Interagency cooperation with the FAA to identify people lying on their medical applications would be nothing new.

Could someone given the proper motivation and time find something, sure, like anything. I know a couple of guys that had disqualifying conditions in the military get their tickets and they've been flying for years, no issues. Just like a lot of guys with a top secret that would be disqualified if the investigator had interrogated everyone in their High School class vs. the people they put on the list. No one wants to look that hard at people unless it is really required, even the self-righteous often disappoint. This is about the perception of due diligence, not a CIA level witch hunt.

If your position is that it's possible the FAA won't find out, I think you're correct. If your position is they can't or won't find out about information another Federal agency holds, I know it's not. Further, if you get caught lying about that, you're done in aviation for good. OTOH, if you own up to it and go through the established process for issuance with that in your record, you are good to go with the FAA and will never have to worry about getting caught later.

 

[Matthew]

Shaky ground actually getting the information though. The military has a form of HIPPA for personnel that has an approval process. I can't imagine the FAA has an open database connection to all military medical records. Also, how the Military handles non-personnel is a mystery to me, but I'm sure they don't just open that up either. Could someone given the proper motivation and time find something, sure, like anything. I know a couple of guys that had disqualifying conditions in the military get their tickets and they've been flying for years, no issues. Just like a lot of guys with a top secret that would be disqualified if the investigator had interrogated everyone in their High School class vs. the people they put on the list. No one wants to look that hard at people unless it is really required, even the self-righteous often disappoint. This is about the perception of due diligence, not a CIA level witch hunt.

I don't know how it works officially, but like most things in life if you draw attention to yourself you are pretty likely to get it. An accident or a bust can be that attention getter. And if FAA finds something, your insurance co will probably be more than happy to leave you hanging too.

 

[Alexb2000]

I don't know how it works officially, but like most things in life if you draw attention to yourself you are pretty likely to get it. An accident or a bust can be that attention getter. And if FAA finds something, your insurance co will probably be more than happy to leave you hanging too.

We say that a lot about insurance not paying if you did this or that and everything wasn't 100% perfect. I've never heard of that in reality though. If you have a license, then you have one. It's like insurance denying a claim because your VOR check was out, or you needed an IPC, or????? If they could find any reason to deny a claim then the banks would never lend on aircraft. Just like your car insurance denying coverage because you were speeding by 2 MPH when you wrecked.

Besides, there wasn't any chance for due process, if you got a false positive, why does that mean you're done flying for life no rebuttal?

 

[hindsight2020]

We say that a lot about insurance not paying if you did this or that and everything wasn't 100% perfect. I've never heard of that in reality though. If you have a license, then you have one. It's like insurance denying a claim because your VOR check was out, or you needed an IPC, or????? If they could find any reason to deny a claim then the banks would never lend on aircraft. Just like your car insurance denying coverage because you were speeding by 2 MPH when you wrecked.

Besides, there wasn't any chance for due process, if you got a false positive, why does that mean you're done flying for life no rebuttal?

I agree 100% with your position. I will say that the answer to your last question is: plain and simple labor surplus. Not enough living wage jobs for the number of hands who desire one in this Country. It's Hunger Games out there. If there was an actual shortage, then these things wouldn't be sources of scrutiny.

 

[Matthew]

We say that a lot about insurance not paying if you did this or that and everything wasn't 100% perfect. I've never heard of that in reality though. If you have a license, then you have one. It's like insurance denying a claim because your VOR check was out, or you needed an IPC, or????? If they could find any reason to deny a claim then the banks would never lend on aircraft. Just like your car insurance denying coverage because you were speeding by 2 MPH when you wrecked.

I don't have any personal knowledge of a claim not being paid, but I've seen the wording in the policy that gives the ins co an out.

"If you have a license, then you have one." - in this case,I was referring to a situation where someone might have lied in order to get a license.

Take your chances if you want to. It's your decision.

 

[poadeleted20]

We say that a lot about insurance not paying if you did this or that and everything wasn't 100% perfect. I've never heard of that in reality though.

I have. Plenty of case law on point if you look for it.

If you have a license, then you have one. It's like insurance denying a claim because your VOR check was out, or you needed an IPC, or?????

Ones I am familiar with from my Aviation Law courses include lack of a flight review and lack of a current medical.

Besides, there wasn't any chance for due process, if you got a false positive, why does that mean you're done flying for life no rebuttal?

This isn't a due process issue. You have the opportunity for due process by checking "yes" and then providing the documentation that the positive result was false. As for "due process" with the military medical exam, that's a medical exam, not a legal process.

 

[Alexb2000]

I don't have any personal knowledge of a claim not being paid, but I've seen the wording in the policy that gives the ins co an out.

"If you have a license, then you have one." - in this case,I was referring to a situation where someone might have lied in order to get a license.

Take your chances if you want to. It's your decision.

Just for conversation, that's my point. Some guy that has been flying for 30 years wrecks a G-V. Say the insurance company hires an army of PI's and finds out that in High School he failed a drug test for football. He claims he never smoked pot and it was second hand at a party or just a test screwup. In his mind he has never taken drugs ergo he could not have truly failed a test. When he retested it was fine and he played football with no further issues proving his point.

So is his ticket retroactively invalid?

How do you prove that one way or the other short of a trial?

Does any of that really matter when the guy has flown 30 years without a scratch or infraction?

If he had decided to accept he had failed a drug test, then he would never fly. Would that improve safety? Is that really fair if the guy never touched a joint in his life?

I just don't see an upside in these kinds of things, the OP could easily argue exactly the above. It doesn't seem like the FAA does either or we would hear a lot more about it.

 

[poadeleted20]

Just for conversation, that's my point. Some guy that has been flying for 30 years wrecks a G-V. Say the insurance company hires an army of PI's and finds out that in High School he failed a drug test for football. He claims he never smoked pot and it was second hand at a party or just a test screwup. In his mind he has never taken drugs ergo he could not have truly failed a test.

The question was "have you ever failed a drug test?" not "did you ever smoke pot?" or "do you think you deserved to fail a drug test?". Denial of reality is not a valid excuse for giving a false answer on a Federal application form, and the FAA can and will take that person's certificates if they find out. Note, too, that his person would have to have made the same false answer many times over those 30 years.

As for an insurance company doing that, as long as the person didn't lie on the insurance application, too, I don't see it happening. All they care in this regard is whether or not the person held valid pilot/medical certificates at the time of the accident. Of course, if the FAA finds out and revokes that person's certificates after the accident, that will affect future insurance applications, but that's another story.

 

[Alexb2000]

I have. Plenty of case law on point if you look for it.
Ones I am familiar with from my Aviation Law courses include lack of a flight review and lack of a current medical.

This isn't a due process issue. You have the opportunity for due process by checking "yes" and then providing the documentation that the positive result was false. As for "due process" with the military medical exam, that's a medical exam, not a legal process.

You mean checking "yes", making the whole point moot, because regardless if you are 100% innocent your flying career is over for life as you alluded to prior. What if the samples were mis-keyed? What if the machines calibration was off? What if the tech. cross contaminated the samples? What if that happened to you? Due process means an opportunity to challenge/verify the results, didn't happen here.

 

[Matthew]

You mean checking "yes", making the whole point invalid, because regardless if you are 100% innocent your flying career is over for life as you alluded to prior. What if the samples were mis-keyed? What if the machines calibration was off? What if the tech. cross contaminated the samples? What if that happened to you? Due process means an opportunity to challenge/verify the results, didn't happen here.

But wouldn't that due process have to be handled at the time of the test? If you did get a failed test and challenged the results, and ended up with a clean test - that's one thing. But waiting years later to fill out an FAA medical and then claim the test was false positive just doesn't seem like it's going to work out very well.

 

[Alexb2000]

But wouldn't that due process have to be handled at the time of the test? If you did get a failed test and challenged the results, and ended up with a clean test - that's one thing. But waiting years later to fill out an FAA medical and then claim the test was false positive just doesn't seem like it's going to work out very well.

Ageed. If I were going to argue that I would have my doctor give me routine tests, just to keep on file in case of some question down the road.

 

[Unregistered]

does anyone else know if HIPPA covers you in this situation?

 

[Morgan3820]

The question was "have you ever failed a drug test?" not "did you ever smoke pot?" or "do you think you deserved to fail a drug test?". Denial of reality is not a valid excuse for giving a false answer on a Federal application form, and the FAA can and will take that person's certificates if they find out. Note, too, that his person would have to have made the same false answer many times over those 30 years.

As for an insurance company doing that, as long as the person didn't lie on the insurance application, too, I don't see it happening. All they care in this regard is whether or not the person held valid pilot/medical certificates at the time of the accident. Of course, if the FAA finds out and revokes that person's certificates after the accident, that will affect future insurance applications, but that's another story.

As a federal employee, I have always counted on the incompetence of the federal system and rarely been disappointed. Bureaucracies lose things all of the time. I would ignore the honorable Mr. Lxxy and go flying. Come down to NC and I'll go flying with you. I find perfect people boring.