Failed Medicals (Pilot Point of Views)

[LJS1993]

You know guys I've been on here for some time and have noticed that for the most part no matter what the medical condition may be you guys seem to want to help a guy work around losing a license. I have no issue with that as I'm sure by the time I go for my PPL I might have some health issues myself. However, with that said are there any occasions where you actually agree with the judgement that a pilot should lose their license due to a medical condition? Are there some people that despite their love and goals to be a pilot just shouldn't be allowed up in the air?

 

[douglas393]

Actually, I am not sure I agree with your observation. I am sure we have told someone to not fly(at least individually). I am pretty certain Dr. Bruce has. I think however, often we try to look for ways for even the most unfortunate share our undying, and often illogical love for flying.

 

[JeffDG]

I generally don't have an issue with folks and multiple DUIs being grounded.

 

[Matthew]

I don't think any of us have said it's OK to cheat the system. But if there is a way to navigate through it and keep your medical that's OK with me.


I think there ARE pilots who shouldn't be flying, and the ability to get a medical doesn't always come into play.

 

[Henning]

You know guys I've been on here for some time and have noticed that for the most part no matter what the medical condition may be you guys seem to want to help a guy work around losing a license. I have no issue with that as I'm sure by the time I go for my PPL I might have some health issues myself. However, with that said are there any occasions where you actually agree with the judgement that a pilot should lose their license due to a medical condition? Are there some people that despite their love and goals to be a pilot just shouldn't be allowed up in the air?

You don't lose your license due to medical issues, you lose your medical. If you know you will fail your next exam, you can just let your medical expire and fly SP. You only lose your license through an administrative action for some rules violation. It's a fine distinction, but exists none the less.

Should some people not be allowed to fly in a licensed capacity (flying something heavier than an ultralight and hauling a passenger)? Oh Hell yes.

 

[Mason]

You know guys I've been on here for some time and have noticed that for the most part no matter what the medical condition may be you guys seem to want to help a guy work around losing a license. I have no issue with that as I'm sure by the time I go for my PPL I might have some health issues myself. However, with that said are there any occasions where you actually agree with the judgement that a pilot should lose their license due to a medical condition? Are there some people that despite their love and goals to be a pilot just shouldn't be allowed up in the air?

The short answer is: Yes.

 

[frfly172]

You have to consider the individual circumstances,there are plenty of problems where a medical should not be issued.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

You know guys I've been on here for some time and have noticed that for the most part no matter what the medical condition may be you guys seem to want to help a guy work around losing a license. I have no issue with that as I'm sure by the time I go for my PPL I might have some health issues myself. However, with that said are there any occasions where you actually agree with the judgement that a pilot should lose their license due to a medical condition? Are there some people that despite their love and goals to be a pilot just shouldn't be allowed up in the air?

FWIW, One looses one's license only if they really eff up and it gets revoked or if they surrender it.

But... Based on my observations of people with and without current FAA medicals, the correlation between the ability to pass an FAA medical and be a competent pilot seems to be somewhat weak. So, I would look more towards how well a person performs in an airplane in the context of flight instruction or a flight review as an indication of whether or not it's time to hang it up. If you can't perform on a check ride or flight review then you are done - it doesn't matter if you can still pass the medical (assuming the instructor is actually doing his / her / it's job). (Yes, I know, you can "not pass" a flight review and still keep on flying for another few weeks until your last flight review expires ( and yes, I am also aware that none of this applies to part 103 (and I am also aware that there are those who fly without medicals / flight reviews / annual inspections, etc.)))

edit: forgot to answer the question. Yes there are people that do not belong in the PIC chair - some due to things that should turn up during a medical and some because they are just urine poor pilots and/or morons.

 

[LJS1993]

You don't lose your license due to medical issues, you lose your medical. If you know you will fail your next exam, you can just let your medical expire and fly SP. You only lose your license through an administrative action for some rules violation. It's a fine distinction, but exists none the less.

Should some people not be allowed to fly in a licensed capacity (flying something heavier than an ultralight and hauling a passenger)? Oh Hell yes.

So the sport pilot route is the way to go if you have issues passing or maintaining a medical?

 

[Henning]

So the sport pilot route is the way to go if you have issues passing or maintaining a medical?

That, Pt 103 Ultralights, Gliders to include motor gliders, and balloons.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

So the sport pilot route is the way to go if you have issues passing or maintaining a medical?

Unless you apply for a class III and fail (or have one revoked or...) - that locks you out of SP. And assuming you have a valid drivers license etc. And assuming that the reason you suspect that you may have an issue with the FAA medical doesn't mean that you wouldn't be safe operating as PIC...

 

[bbchien]

LJS, we have a guy locally who is 85 years old. Of late he has become known for:

Doing a runup at the pumps with the Champ just behind him.
Turning out on a DIME nearly taking out the tail feathers on the pumps. Never mind the line guy.
Cutting folks off in the pattern.
Shouting match on the radio.

So when he went into Afib last fall, which he had not reported and had had for two years (e.g, lied on the last one), I advised him, "well we could get you certified, but it will be a long haul." His medical expired Dec 31, 012.

Now my problem is he continues to fly. I have checked, he has no medical (I am the last AME of record). He showed up for the Airport Open House and I advised the EAA guys not to let him do young Eagles. His family doc just became a junior AME and he asked me about the guy. So I told him the non-medical concerns as he knows the rest.

Fortunately, without a medical certificate, he is out of my jurisdiction. However our on -base DPE knows and has a gopro. I think I know what happens next......

We have already had a gear up and a Baron overrun into the DOT right of way (total loss), lots of activity here but not the kind we want.....

 

[wabower]

Non-published Rules for AME's:

1. Don't **** off obstreperous octogenarians whose livelihood involved proficiency with chain saws.

LJS, we have a guy locally who is 85 years old. Of late he has become known for:

Doing a runup at the pumps with the Champ just behind him.
Turning out on a DIME nearly taking out the tail feathers on the pumps. Never mind the line guy.
Cutting folks off in the pattern.
Shouting match on the radio.

So when he went into Afib last fall, which he had not reported and had had for two years (e.g, lied on the last one), I advised him, "well we could get you certified, but it will be a long haul." His medical expired Dec 31, 012.

Now my problem is he continues to fly. I have checked, he has no medical (I am the last AME of record). He showed up for the Airport Open House and I advised the EAA guys not to let him do young Eagles. His family doc just became a junior AME and he asked me about the guy. So I told him the non-medical concerns as he knows the rest.

Fortunately, without a medical certificate, he is out of my jurisdiction. However our on -base DPE knows and has a gopro. I think I know what happens next......

We have already had a gear up and a Baron overrun into the DOT right of way (total loss), lots of activity here but not the kind we want.....

 

[Z06_Mir]

Bruce, there's a similar guy at one of my home bases. He's terrifying. He can't ever find the airport in CAVU so they give him the ILS because he says that's what he wants. He's not instrument rated, no medical and he always yells at the tower for things. I guess a few years ago he got violated and a 60 day vaca because he told the tower he didn't feel like holding short when he was asked to.

 

[LJS1993]

LJS, we have a guy locally who is 85 years old. Of late he has become known for:

Doing a runup at the pumps with the Champ just behind him.
Turning out on a DIME nearly taking out the tail feathers on the pumps. Never mind the line guy.
Cutting folks off in the pattern.
Shouting match on the radio.

So when he went into Afib last fall, which he had not reported and had had for two years (e.g, lied on the last one), I advised him, "well we could get you certified, but it will be a long haul." His medical expired Dec 31, 012.

Now my problem is he continues to fly. I have checked, he has no medical (I am the last AME of record). He showed up for the Airport Open House and I advised the EAA guys not to let him do young Eagles. His family doc just became a junior AME and he asked me about the guy. So I told him the non-medical concerns as he knows the rest.

Fortunately, without a medical certificate, he is out of my jurisdiction. However our on -base DPE knows and has a gopro. I think I know what happens next......

We have already had a gear up and a Baron overrun into the DOT right of way (total loss), lots of activity here but not the kind we want.....

Wow I thought a failed medical such as this one would mean the guy is done. By done I mean no way possible he can just go to his plane and continue flying like nothing happened.

 

[wabower]

So you'd probably think the same about a guy who never bothered to get a medical at all, or a license or any other paperwork?

Wow I thought a failed medical such as this one would mean the guy is done. By done I mean no way possible he can just go to his plane and continue flying like nothing happened.

 

[Matthew]

Wow I thought a failed medical such as this one would mean the guy is done. By done I mean no way possible he can just go to his plane and continue flying like nothing happened.

The regulations only apply to people who follow the regulations.

How many times do people drive a car after their license has been revoked?

 

[LJS1993]

The regulations only apply to people who follow the regulations.

How many times do people drive a car after their license has been revoked?

Very true indeed. I just thought perhaps the regulations were a little more tightly regulated when it came to flying then driving. Keep in mind my location so I know EXACTLY what you are talking about.

 

[wabower]

Back in the 70's a friend and I decided a roll-up of the honey bee industry would make a good platform for growing the industry, and we still thought so two years later when it was clear that the bee keepers weren't about to sell or cede any authority about anything. Many of them were in Idaho so we spent a lot of time there while trying to craft a deal they would accept, but it was a water-haul. As part of the education, however, we found countless airplanes in sheds and barns, many of them frequently flown in the pursuit of checking hives and other field activities, with nary a license in the bunch.

We also noticed quite a few women around many of the places who appeared somewhat wife-like, but there seemed to be more than one (and as many as four) at some of the places. Maybe just good friends of the occupants.

 

[Henning]

Very true indeed. I just thought perhaps the regulations were a little more tightly regulated when it came to flying then driving. Keep in mind my location so I know EXACTLY what you are talking about.

<sniff> <OMG, I think I just crapped myself>

You have WAY more chance of getting busted for driving without a license than flying without one, and the penalties are much greater.

 

[LJS1993]

Back in the 70's a friend and I decided a roll-up of the honey bee industry would make a good platform for growing the industry, and we still thought so two years later when it was clear that the bee keepers weren't about to sell or cede any authority about anything. Many of them were in Idaho so we spent a lot of time there while trying to craft a deal they would accept, but it was a water-haul. As part of the education, however, we found countless airplanes in sheds and barns, many of them frequently flown in the pursuit of checking hives and other field activities, with nary a license in the bunch.

We also noticed quite a few women around many of the places who appeared somewhat wife-like, but there seemed to be more than one (and as many as four) at some of the places. Maybe just good friends of the occupants.

Nice!!!!!!!!!!1

 

[LJS1993]

<sniff> <OMG, I think I just crapped myself>

You have WAY more chance of getting busted for driving without a license than flying without one, and the penalties are much greater.

Now this is somewhat disturbing. So the guy flying over head could possibly be some yahoo who could have a heart attack, stroke, or flip out mentally at any moment because he doesn't currently or perhaps never had a PPL?!?!?! Wow!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Henning]

Now this is somewhat disturbing. So the guy flying over head could possibly be some yahoo who could have a heart attack, stroke, or flip out mentally at any moment because he doesn't currently or perhaps never had a PPL?!?!?! Wow!!!!!!!!!!

In Riverside? I'd be way more concerned with the dozen meth heads in pick up trucks surrounding you on the highway.

 

[LJS1993]

In Riverside? I'd be way more concerned with the dozen meth heads in pick up trucks surrounding you on the highway.

Very true Henning!!!!!!!!! You've been out here?

 

[Henning]

Very true Henning!!!!!!!!! You've been out here?

I lived in CA for a decade, escaped about 20 years ago.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Now this is somewhat disturbing. So the guy flying over head could possibly be some yahoo who could have a heart attack, stroke, or flip out mentally at any moment because he doesn't currently or perhaps never had a PPL?!?!?! Wow!!!!!!!!!!

Why are you afraid of it? If it was such a huge problem, we'd hear more about it. Not saying it never happens, but it's rare. Frankly, I'd be more concerned about boarding an Asiana flight...

 

[warthog1984]

Frankly, I'd be more concerned about boarding an Asiana flight...

I'd be concerned about being UNDER an Asiana flight. And frankly, compared to the plethora of "license, we don't need no stinkin license" folks driving around SoCal, one little Cessna is not a concern.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

LJS, we have a guy locally who is 85 years old. Of late he has become known for:

Doing a runup at the pumps with the Champ just behind him.
Turning out on a DIME nearly taking out the tail feathers on the pumps. Never mind the line guy.
Cutting folks off in the pattern.
Shouting match on the radio.

I gotta ask - aside from the heart issues (which I cut from the quote) and the fact that this particular individual is willing to fly without the paperwork - is this the sort of stuff that would be most obvious during a typical FAA class III office visit or during a flight review?

 

[Skip Miller]

Wow I thought a failed medical such as this one would mean the guy is done. By done I mean no way possible he can just go to his plane and continue flying like nothing happened.

Well, there are unfit octogenarians on the roads, and unlicensed drivers, too....

-Skip

 

[LJS1993]

Why are you afraid of it? If it was such a huge problem, we'd hear more about it. Not saying it never happens, but it's rare. Frankly, I'd be more concerned about boarding an Asiana flight...

Note Jeff I said "somewhat" disturbing. As Henning stated in Riverside, and especially where I live, most likely some idiot in their lifted truck broad siding me is more likely then some non licensed guy in a Cessna having a heart attack over head and killing people.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Note Jeff I said "somewhat" disturbing. As Henning stated in Riverside, and especially where I live, most likely some idiot in their lifted truck broad siding me is more likely then some non licensed guy in a Cessna having a heart attack over head and killing people.

http://www.aopa.org/-/media/Files/AOPA/Home/News/All News/2012/December/Ambushed by Ice/11nall.pdf

PHYSICAL INCAPACITATION
(5 TOTAL /4 FATAL)
The Alaska crash of a de Havilland
DHC-3 that killed five of the nine on board,
including former U.S. Senator Ted Stevens, was one
of five believed to have been caused by physical
incapacitation of the pilot. The four survivors of that
accident all suˆered serious injuries; the reason for
the pilot’s impairment could not be determined. One
other pilot who suˆered incapacitation of unknown
origin was also killed, as were two pilots believed
to have suˆered heart attacks in flight. A Twin
Comanche pilot who found himself unable to steer
his airplane or use the brakes during the landing
roll underwent emergency surgery for a subdural
hematoma later that night. One of the fatal accidents
occurred on a public-use flight, and the DHC-3
accident was classified as “other work use” under
Part 91. The rest were on personal flights.
The five pilots involved represented less than one
one-thousandth of one percent (.001%) of the active
U.S. pilot population of more than 627,000.

Also:

OFF-AIRPORT GROUND INJURIES
(4 ACCIDENTS / 2 GROUND FATALITIES)
A total of four events killed two people on the ground
and seriously injured two others. One pilot was also
killed when he deliberately crashed his Piper Dakota
into an Austin, Texas, o ̈ce building, an act that cannot
really be considered an “accident.” One worker in
the building was also killed. The other fatality was a
runner who was hit by the wing of a Lancair that made
an emergency landing on the beach at Hilton Head
Island after its propeller departed in flight.
Another Dakota pilot made an impulsive decision
to buzz a friend’s car on the road by the airport;
the friend was injured after the Dakota’s main gear
shattered the car’s windshield. A Beech B19 Sundowner lost power shortly after takeoˆ
while doing touch-and-goes and crashed into the parking lot of an industrial building. The
student pilot, his CFI, and one person in the building all suˆered serious injuries.

 

[teamcoltra]

I think the problem is that a lot of the medical disqualifications are written by lawyers and not MDs. Take for instance diabetes, I think most medical professionals would agree that diabetes is 100% manageable, and would pose no issue for general aviation (as long as the pilot takes certain steps to protect themselves like have food, and tests their blood regularly in the air). That said, many countries (the US included?) do not allow people with diabetes to fly.

Things like depression are also pretty dumb to have as a pilot. As long as the medications you are taking for it don't negatively impact your flying (or as long as you don't take the medications for it) then you should be fine. Depression is a major issue for me (not me, but an issue which I advocate on) because having depression is like having a broken leg, it's something physically wrong with you -- it can be treated, and there is nothing to be embarrassed by.

Considering all the other things that pilots do (and probably shouldn't do) like fly with less than 8 hours of sleep or long trips at higher altitudes without oxygen... Which is a risk but one that we allow. I would rather fly with a depressed guy who is relaxed by flying, then a pilot who took a 5 hour nap and thinks he is ready to fly.

 

[Everskyward]

I think the problem is that a lot of the medical disqualifications are written by lawyers and not MDs. Take for instance diabetes, I think most medical professionals would agree that diabetes is 100% manageable, and would pose no issue for general aviation (as long as the pilot takes certain steps to protect themselves like have food, and tests their blood regularly in the air). That said, many countries (the US included?) do not allow people with diabetes to fly.

Although I don't know the details of what they need to do, I'm pretty sure some pilots in the US are allowed to fly with diabetes.

 

[warthog1984]

That said, many countries (the US included?) do not allow people with diabetes to fly.

Diabetes is flyable. IIRC, I was the first pax carried by the first diabetic pilot in the US in recent history.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Things like depression are also pretty dumb to have as a pilot. As long as the medications you are taking for it don't negatively impact your flying (or as long as you don't take the medications for it) then you should be fine. Depression is a major issue for me (not me, but an issue which I advocate on) because having depression is like having a broken leg, it's something physically wrong with you -- it can be treated, and there is nothing to be embarrassed by.

Denial. That's the key thing to remember if you want to keep your medical certification. "I'm find. Nothing wrong. Just haven't had my coffee yet." Now, the US has recently allowed some treatment under some conditions, but I'm willing to to bet that there are pilots flying around with undiagnosed / untreated issues (mental, physical) that they are ignoring in order to maintain their medical.

But, I will point out that in some cases, even denial has it's limits. When they found the old man passed out on the floor of an FBO mens' room he had to admit to the symptoms he had been having. Treatment for the cancer didn't go well, and it was a long downhill ride.

 

[Henning]

I think the problem is that a lot of the medical disqualifications are written by lawyers and not MDs. Take for instance diabetes, I think most medical professionals would agree that diabetes is 100% manageable, and would pose no issue for general aviation (as long as the pilot takes certain steps to protect themselves like have food, and tests their blood regularly in the air). That said, many countries (the US included?) do not allow people with diabetes to fly.

Things like depression are also pretty dumb to have as a pilot. As long as the medications you are taking for it don't negatively impact your flying (or as long as you don't take the medications for it) then you should be fine. Depression is a major issue for me (not me, but an issue which I advocate on) because having depression is like having a broken leg, it's something physically wrong with you -- it can be treated, and there is nothing to be embarrassed by.

Considering all the other things that pilots do (and probably shouldn't do) like fly with less than 8 hours of sleep or long trips at higher altitudes without oxygen... Which is a risk but one that we allow. I would rather fly with a depressed guy who is relaxed by flying, then a pilot who took a 5 hour nap and thinks he is ready to fly.

The problem with both diabetes and depression is that there are too many people who do a poor job at keeping their medication in check (btw, you can get an SI for diabetes). I have had a diabetic crew on boat OD his insulin (thought a food had sugar when it didn't) and go down on me.

 

[wabower]

With that outcome is it safe to assume he will always be a part of your crew?

The problem with both diabetes and depression is that there are too many people who do a poor job at keeping their medication in check (btw, you can get an SI for diabetes). I have had a diabetic crew on boat OD his insulin (thought a food had sugar when it didn't) and go down on me.

 

[Henning]

With that outcome is it safe to assume he will always be a part of your crew?

Nope, haven't worked with him in years (most companies you don't pick your crew). The outcome was I poured a packet of sugar under his tongue (I knew he was diabetic) and he came back around.

 

[PW_Plack]

When I read a compilation of fatal accidents involving medical incapacitation, I rarely see mentioned whether those pilots held valid medicals. I'm guessing many did. Without that missing data, it's hard to make good decisions.

I have no issue with grounding pilots who have medical issues which could cause sudden, unpredictable loss of their ability to control of an aircraft. But NTSB data suggests we'd be much further ahead if we developed screening for poor judgment, and did away with medicals for recreational pilots.

I have a good friend who suffered a traumatic brain injury in a serious motorcycle accident, along with the loss of all vision in one eye and peripheral vision in the other. (He was issued a death certificate, and only regained consciousness on a cadaver table surrounded by med students as they started boring into his skull.) He was told he'd never walk unassisted or speak in complete sentences in 1995. He persevered, earned a SODA in 2007, and now has 1200 accident-free hours PIC in an experimental gyroplane. He is the most careful, methodical, self-critical pilot I know. I've flown with him, and would do so anytime.

I also know guys with valid, current medicals and no obvious physical challenges, that I consider high-risk individuals.

Medical certificates are one of the few bureaucratic tools available to screen the pilot population, and they're probably a feel-good thing for ground-dwellers, but they're a very blunt instrument. They are analogous to strip-searching elderly veterans to find terrorists at airports.

I think there would be less strategizing to "beat the medical" if the medical screening process had a closer relationship with the real risks of flying.

 

[Johann]

I have no issue with grounding pilots who have medical issues which could cause sudden, unpredictable loss of their ability to control of an aircraft.

But by that logic, shouldn't we take their driver's license too?. How is a Cessna 172 out of control more dangerous than an out of control SUV at 65 MPH on a 2 way highway?

(No, I'm not advocating class 3 medicals for drivers! )