Failed DOT Pre-Employment Drug Test. Emergency Medical Revocation

C

CFII252

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Apr 4, 2016
Messages
3
Display Name
Display name:
CFII252
Failed a pre employment dot drug test for a 141 school with a LOA to do air tours. Failed for THC with 77 nanograms. I just got a letter 4 months later saying my medical has been emergency revocated. I did receive a letter from FAA saying I was being investigated a few weeks after the positive test. Immediately after receiving that letter I went to a DOT Substance Abuse Provider and had an assessment. I completed her treatment on January 12 and forwarded this information to the FAA investigators. I didn't hear anything until my AME (who I notified when this happened) went trying to get details on what we would need for a medical. They said it had been revocated on January 19,2016. I call the lawyer in charge of my case (info from AME who called OKC) and ask if my medical had been taken. Her response was no it has not been taken at the current time and that it was a mistake. Well a week later (March 29) I get a email from the same lawyer lady saying that my medical had been emergency revocated. My question is has anyone been through this? What are my chances of getting a special issuance? Is it worth fighting via appeal? I have appealed emergency order and revocation order as well. Already sent my medical in to the FAA. I am a CFII that really wishes he never touched that dreaded substance on my honeymoon in Colorado. Any professional opinions would be awesome. I just want to fly again and hopefully instruct. Sent 3 students on checkrides after dot SAP cleared me all with passing rides BTW. Please help!
 
CFII252 said:
Any professional opinions would be awesome
Click to expand...
Welcome to PoA!

Advice the first: cease discussing this on an internet forum. Most folks here will just be guessing and conjecturing. And you don't want to inadvertently dig a deeper hole.


Advice the second: To get the best and correct info, contact Dr. Bruce Chien, www.aeromedicaldoc.com. He also periodically stops by this forum, so you can send him a private message to @bbchien (use the "conversations" icon in the upper right that looks like an envelope)

Dr. Bruce will help you, but only, and only, if you go to him 100% completely honest and humble. He does a lot of advocacy work for the airmen who retain him, but he doesn't have time for folks who misrepresent their case nor listen to his guidance. If you do some searching on this forum, you will see he is respected by many here for assisting in difficult cases such as yours.
 
A question for the gallery.... Are the three students that the OP sent to checkride in any jeopardy?
 
The faa lawyer advised me my medical was valid for the period the check rides took place. One of the first questions I asked her. Thanks again for advice. Just wondering if I should hire a 5-7k lawyer or just try and get a speical issuance or wait 2 years plus :(.
 
CFII252 said:
Just wondering if I should hire a 5-7k lawyer or just try and get a speical issuance or wait 2 years plus
Click to expand...
I am unable to provide any answers or guidance on that. As are most folks who participate here. Dr. Chien is one of the few who can correctly lay out your options and explain the choices.
 
CFII252 said:
The faa lawyer advised me my medical was valid for the period the check rides took place. One of the first questions I asked her. Thanks again for advice. Just wondering if I should hire a 5-7k lawyer or just try and get a speical issuance or wait 2 years plus :(.
Click to expand...

Special Issuances are available for specific medical conditions. I don't see how that would apply here, just like you can't get a special issuance to overcome a DUI conviction. I suspect the FAA is treating this the same as a failed alcohol screening.
 
Personally, I predict that you'll be getting to know a HIMS AME like Dr. Bruce or Dr. Lou pretty well and peeing in a lot of cups for the next few years.

I really wouldn't bother with the lawyer for the time being. But I also wouldn't be talking to the FAA, either. I'd call Dr. Bruce or Dr. Lou and see what, if anything, they can do for you. If they think it's a good idea to bring a lawyer into the team, they'll tell you.

Rich
 
You need to talk to the Dr. ,tell him the complete truth. Then decide if it's worth getting a lawyer.
 
from FAA HIMS re marijuana

FAA revocation for 1 year

Ff airman desires a SI, immed begin documented sobriety all substances during said year (~16 random urines - all substances over year), go to AA or NA 90/90 then many many meetings (3 a wk). They will not consider your case till you document a year. Extra insurance: enroll in a IOP (usually 12 weeks) too. Get a sponsor.

Apply at one year - expect to be referred to a HIMS.org ame and process. Then you see the shrink and psyc. You can get a SI ... for about $3k less than a lawyer. Remember the SI will last for 5 years and you will be monitored, seen by your HIMS AME freq and the shrink only yearly. Good luck
 
Kritchlow said:
Good. We don't want drugies in the sky.

Clean up your act or get out.
Click to expand...
This guy peppers his self-righteous bs on every thread like this, and there are others. Don't sweat it, and good luck to you.
 
Today at the advanced HIMS meeting in DFW, in the breakout session for HIMS AME sponsors, one year was DISCUSSED. But the standard as not been moved as of yet. I will inquire in the AM of Dr. Giovanetti (if I get the chance).

The question of 1 year or two devolves around which part of 67.207 you can show- the difference between abuse and dependency. But they sure won't even look until we can prove sobriety.

For the Colorado HIMS AMEs, this is approaching their #1 issue. After all, in Colorado, everyone thinks it's legal......federally it's a no-no.
 
Last edited:
bbchien said:
Today at the advanced HIMS meeting in DFW, in the breakout session for HIMS AME sponsors, one year was DISCUSSED. But the standard as not been moved as of yet. I will inquire in the AM of Dr. Giovanetti (if I get the chance).
Click to expand...
Thank you sir. I am the man who has contacted you this evening from your site. I appreciate your help in regards to this matter.
 
Good luck to you but I don't understand your story. CFII, part 141, pre-employment drug screening... It's like you tried to smuggle a pistol through airport security and mumbled something about spending your honeymoon in TX when your plan failed. How could you NOT have known that drugs are a deal-breaker in aviation and then just walk right into a drug test a while after smoking some weed? You blew it and it's all on you. :oops:
 
I don't know much about it but I was told by somebody who does that if you did pot one time it would be out of your system pretty quickly. So not really sure that I buy the "one time mistake". Maybe but who knows. However, my best advice is don't lie to Dr. Bruce. If you've had this "one time mistake" more than once you might want to be 100% candid about it with Bruce. He catches you lying to him, he will drop you like a hot potato. He's you're best option over an attorney IMO.

Either way, you will be grounded for at least 1 year (probably longer) but if you clean up (yes, even ONE time shows horrible judgement, so yes, you MUST clean up) you will be back in the air at some point in your future. Good luck.
 
77ng/ml

Did you walk into the testing center munching a brownie?

Good luck. Seek help (or a local referral) from one of the above mentioned AMEs. If it is Bruce, whatever you do, don't try to tell him the honeymoon story.
 
weilke said:
77ng/ml

Did you walk into the testing center munching a brownie?

Good luck. Seek help (or a local referral) from one of the above mentioned AMEs. If it is Bruce, whatever you do, don't try to tell him the honeymoon story.
Click to expand...

Is 77ng alot of pot? And double agree on the honeymoon story :)
 
EminiTrader said:
Is 77ng alot of pot? And double agree on the honeymoon story :)
Click to expand...

This according to NHSA:

Interpretation of Blood Concentrations:

It is difficult to establish a relationship between a person's THC blood or plasma concentration and performance impairing effects. Concentrations of parent drug and metabolite are very dependent on pattern of use as well as dose. THC concentrations typically peak during the act of smoking, while peak 11-OH THC concentrations occur approximately 9-23 minutes after the start of smoking. Concentrations of both analytes decline rapidly and are often < 5 ng/mL at 3 hours. Significant THC concentrations (7 to 18 ng/mL) are noted following even a single puff or hit of a marijuana cigarette. Peak plasma THC concentrations ranged from 46-188 ng/mL in 6 subjects after they smoked 8.8 mg THC over 10 minutes. Chronic users can have mean plasma levels of THC-COOH of 45 ng/mL, 12 hours after use; corresponding THC levels are, however, less than 1 ng/mL. Following oral administration, THC concentrations peak at 1-3 hours and are lower than after smoking. Dronabinol and THC-COOH are present in equal concentrations in plasma and concentrations peak at approximately 2-4 hours after dosing.

It is inadvisable to try and predict effects based on blood THC concentrations alone, and currently impossible to predict specific effects based on THC-COOH concentrations. It is possible for a person to be affected by marijuana use with concentrations of THC in their blood below the limit of detection of the method. Mathematical models have been developed to estimate the time of marijuana exposure within a 95% confidence interval. Knowing the elapsed time from marijuana exposure can then be used to predict impairment in concurrent cognitive and psychomotor effects based on data in the published literature.


TLDR: 77 does not appear to be attributable to a level of impairment like .14 BAC could for alcohol for example. And some people with alcoholism can be at .14 BAC and be upright, while others not so much.
 
EminiTrader said:
Is 77ng alot of pot? And double agree on the honeymoon story :)
Click to expand...


5ng/ml in blood is the level for a DUI in Colorado.

If this was a urine test, it is not that far above detection level.

From a single use, urine THC-COOH levels drop below detection within 24-48hrs.

I would have a hard time believing a one-time use story with a 77ng level (regardless whether blood or urine). Now if you were buzzed for a week solid.....


Doing drugs was about the last thing I had on my mind on our honeymoon.
 
Caramon13 said:
TLDR: 77 does not appear to be attributable to a level of impairment like .14 BAC could for alcohol for example. And some people with alcoholism can be at .14 BAC and be upright, while others not so much.
Click to expand...

Trying to map serum levels to impairment is not the issue here. They're not trying to determine if he was operating while intoxicated, they're trying to determine if he is a habitual user of a banned psychoactive substance. You'll not get anywhere claiming the Dr. Johnny Fever defense.
 
flyingron said:
Trying to map serum levels to impairment is not the issue here. They're not trying to determine if he was operating while intoxicated, they're trying to determine if he is a habitual user of a banned psychoactive substance. You'll not get anywhere claiming the Dr. Johnny Fever defense.
Click to expand...

Right, agree with all that. I was answering a question from @EminiTrader about whether or not 77 THC is a lot of pot. Based on the NHSA and the legal limit, I'd say that 77 THC IS a lot of pot.
 
heh - honeymoons... at a place I used to work a couple got married. They said they were going to the Bahamas or somewhere with a beach, then at the last minute went skiing instead. When they got back, they mentioned they had gone skiing and one of our managers said, "When you came back from the islands without a tan, I thought, 'My God! You two never left your room!'" Then another guy, not the brightest bulb, said, "What, did it rain the whole time?"
 
Matthew said:
heh - honeymoons... at a place I used to work a couple got married. They said they were going to the Bahamas or somewhere with a beach, then at the last minute went skiing instead. When they got back, they mentioned they had gone skiing and one of our managers said, "When you came back from the islands without a tan, I thought, 'My God! You two never left your room!'" Then another guy, not the brightest bulb, said, "What, did it rain the whole time?"
Click to expand...

That other guy had probably been married for a long time.
 
Thanks for the replies. Clearly I do not know enough about measurements of dope - so I was just wondering. I do feel the whole thing smells a bit suspicious... The fact that he threw in the "one time thing in Colorado" seems suspect to me. I have no dog in the fight but I read these posts because at the end of the day I fly 20-30 hours a month and the last thing I want to do is run into a guy on pot or any other kind of mind numbing things. Personally what a guy does on his off time I could careless..

OP: Serious question - why did you go to Colorado for a honeymoon - was it because pot is legal? At least you had a honeymoon. Hell at least you have a wife. I only have a damn plane :)
 
EminiTrader said:
OP: Serious question - why did you go to Colorado for a honeymoon - was it because pot is legal? At least you had a honeymoon. Hell at least you have a wife. I only have a damn plane :)
Click to expand...

I would have assumed that in Jan it was to go skiing.
 
weilke said:
77ng/ml

Did you walk into the testing center munching a brownie?
Click to expand...

I was kind of wondering the same thing. I just figured he meant 7.7 (still high) or 0.77 (possible if it were in fact a one-time thing).

Rich
 
From what I've heard if the FAA is looking to bust you, a lawyer isn't going to do anything, it's not like a criminal court or even small claims where things are balanced, it's really just a formality with the FAA.

As far as some of the puritanical nuts on here, don't mind them, heck if you would have said you were trying to get a medical but you take oxy for neck pains they probably would have treated you 100% different, even though you're doing heroin.

The part I don't get is why on earth would you take a pre employment drug test after smoking/eating weed? I mean a quick Google search would have given you the time it will stay in your system.
 
Colorado is a great place for a honeymoon if you're a skier or otherwise an outdoors types. My daughter and her husband might have honeymooned there if they hadn't already lived there (that's where they got married).

I see the OP also asked the identical question on the red board and Dr. Bruce has already responded. Much as many have theorized here, at this point it is a MASSIVE deal and he's got a tough slog with the HIMS folk if it's even possible for him to get a second class ever again.

And James, believe me, if they thought you were a habitual opiod user (be it prescribed or otherwise) you'd be in a world of hurt too. Had a few crashes where the pilots were post-mortem discovered to be heavily into such.
 
JCranford said:
Here's my professional opinion: stop being a pothead (if you partake frequently) or an idiot (if it was 'one time on my honeymoon'). I don't want to fly with either one.
Click to expand...

Kritchlow said:
Good. We don't want drugies in the sky.

Clean up your act or get out.
Click to expand...

Mtns2Skies said:
Please don't come back to Colorado. We hate people like you.
Click to expand...

You guys remind me of someone who drives a hybrid and thinks they're better than everyone else!

south-park-s10e02c01-thanks-16x9.jpg
 
In fairness, I don't really care about this guy's morals. I just don't like people that come to Colorado seemingly for the sole purpose of marijuana. There's a whole lot more to this state than that, but that seems to be all we're known for lately.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
In fairness, I don't really care about this guy's morals. I just don't like people that come to Colorado seemingly for the sole purpose of marijuana. There's a whole lot more to this state than that, but that seems to be all we're known for lately.
Click to expand...

Your legislature did it. If you don't like it, you know who to go complain to.
 
So you can seriously just walk into a store and come out with a bag of weed? No doctor's note or nothing? What's to stop the D.E.A. from doing a sting there and looking for people coming out?

I really need to come out from the rock I live under....
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top