Factory New or Reman - What's your opinion

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I'm considering a zero-time Continental reman engine vs. a factory new. I feel confident that there is no appreciable difference in the two in terms of safety and longevity. But I would love to hear the opinions of others more knowledge than me. It's an O-470-R.
 
Opinion: I would compare both of the factory offerings to a house like Penn Yan. For the amount of money I would be investing, I’d take a trip ($$) to visit and discuss first hand the pros and cons vs factory.
 
If we're spending your money, go for new. Me? Gonna have a good shop overhaul what I have. Of course, if it will take weeks and weeks, a reman would be my second choice.
 
Does the factory remanufactured use new cylinders or overhauled cylinders? That would be one of my criteria.
 
Agree with kenny and @GRG55
Factory new may yield greater resale value though.
 
there are also some boutique builders with strong reputations that I think you'd need to talk to. Zephry Hills for example might be able to give you a great engine for substantially less than the options above.
 
GRG55 said:
Does the factory remanufactured use new cylinders or overhauled cylinders? That would be one of my criteria.
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would one of your criteria be to not use continental cylinders at all, or are they all bad on conti's now?
 
Back in 2011 I had an overhaul by a reputable company (not zephyr, to my disappointment in the end). New cylinders. However, after all the aggravation that ensued, by the time the company & I agreed never to contact each other again, nor even admit to the existence of the other, I could have had a new Lycoming for the same price.

Talk to Zephyr as a data point in your decision. I'd had 3 close friends use them, and are very happy with the work.
 
MIFlyer said:
would one of your criteria be to not use continental cylinders at all, or are they all bad on conti's now?
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They all suck on all traditional piston airplane engines. Historically I have had better luck with Continental engines than Lycoming.

To the OP, given the same warranty I would probably go the cheaper route. I would also want to know what parts may be ground and which ones are original. If it comes with a crank that has already been ground you may not get another grind on it when it comes time for another rebuild.
 
MIFlyer said:
would one of your criteria be to not use continental cylinders at all, or are they all bad on conti's now?
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The blanket "Continental better/worse than Lycoming" thing is overdone. Both have engines in their line-up that have excellent reputations for longevity and performance, and both have had some dogs along the way too. I doubt the Bonanza, for example, would ever have become the outstanding success it's been if there was a fundamental, across the board problem with Conti engines and cylinders.

I happen to have owned a series of Pipers, and as a result I've only owned and dealt with Lycomings (and the Husky is also Lycoming powered). No dissatisfaction with any of them, so far. ;)
 
GRG55 said:
Does the factory remanufactured use new cylinders or overhauled cylinders? That would be one of my criteria.
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At this point I don’t think there is appreciable difference between factory reman and new for either of the main OEMs. In recent times both of the manufacturers are essentially producing new engines with old serial numbers as their reman engines.

As far as what I would do, I think it depends on what we’re starting with. If it is an old engine that spit a rod out a factory reman or new would probably be the best choice. If the engine was generally ok, a local or overhaul specialist shop may be an option. Any of the options are probably going to take a roughly equal amount of time to complete and return to the owner.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Opinion: I would compare both of the factory offerings to a house like Penn Yan. For the amount of money I would be investing, I’d take a trip ($$) to visit and discuss first hand the pros and cons vs factory.
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I agree with this. When I was looking at a major overhaul I asked around and compared prices and services. Ultimately I went with Penn Yan Aero because they could deal with a high compression STC with no hassle (and had done them before so were familiar with the requirements), offered a great price, and excellent turn-around time. Whoever you choose, you want a good warranty, and a good shop reputation for quality builds. I had good experience with Penn Yan for several cylinder assemblies, so I was already familiar with them and their work quality. (Those cylinders were working and looking great when they came off the engine prior to overhaul.) There are lots of good independent rebuilders in each region of the country. Penn Yan Aero is well known in my area.
 
Factory new must meet blue prints,,Rebuilt does not.
try to overhaul a factory rebuilt, your crank may already be undersized. your cylinders already oversized, but still meet under or over size requirements for "REBUILT" read FAR 43.2.
 
write-stuff said:
I'm considering a zero-time Continental reman engine vs. a factory new. I feel confident that there is no appreciable difference in the two in terms of safety and longevity. But I would love to hear the opinions of others more knowledge than me. It's an O-470-R.
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We just went through this exercise last fall and winter. Several long phone calls with our resident engine expert @Ted DuPuis helped a good bit. In the end, we ended up doing the Lycoming factory overhaul, which is the factory NON zero time option. We felt the extra cash to go zero time wasn't worth the benefit. Both factory renam and overhaul are done on the same engine line, and mostly from the same combination of new and used parts. The main reason we went Lycoming is they could offer us something the boutique and/or local field reman guys couldn't, a change in engine configuration. We went from flat tappets (which can have issues lately according to Ted) to roller tappets, and more importantly on the Mooney, we went from siamese mag to two true independent mags.

MIFlyer said:
there are also some boutique builders with strong reputations that I think you'd need to talk to. Zephry Hills for example might be able to give you a great engine for substantially less than the options above.
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We priced the Lyco factory overhaul above as well as received quotes form Zephyr, Penn Yan, Signature, and a couple of local shops. When looking at comparables (we stipulated factory new Lyco cylinders on all quotes), all of the quotes came in within $3k of each other. All of these guys know their market, and know what the competition is charging for a similar product. Nobody is going to leave significant money on the table, why would they?

So for us, with all prices within 10% of each other, it all came down to what choice best satisfied our needs.
 
GRG55 said:
The blanket "Continental better/worse than Lycoming" thing is overdone.
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I completely agree. In fact, I’ve had a lot better luck with the engines that are perceived as being “problems” than I have with the claimed “bulletproof” ones. I’ve overhauled close to two dozen engines over the past decade (not including all the cylinder work and other major projects); almost all of which were premature failures of the common Lycoming 320s, 360s, and 540s.
 
Bill Jennings said:
We went from flat tappets (which can have issues lately according to Ted) to roller tappets...
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Are roller tappets/compatible cam available as a factory-only modification if incorporated in an overhaul? Which model engines have the option for the rollers?
 
IK04 said:
Are roller tappets/compatible cam available as a factory-only modification if incorporated in an overhaul? Which model engines have the option for the rollers?
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For the first question, as I understand it, yes. Roller tappets are only available from the factory as the cases are different. The boutique and/or local guys test and re-use your cases, while the factory overhaul cases come from their inventory of tested good used cases. Our entire engine was sent back as a core, which Lyco tears down, tests, and good parts are put into inventory to be used down the line on another overhaul. As for the second question, I'd say you could call one of the Lyco distributors like Air Power to get the answers.
 
IK04 said:
Are roller tappets/compatible cam available as a factory-only modification if incorporated in an overhaul? Which model engines have the option for the rollers?
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Cases are different so the only place I’m aware of that you can currently get a TCd roller engine is from Lycoming.

Not all Lycoming engines have a roller option. I think there was a bulletin with a list of the engines that were now roller but I can’t seem to find it with a quick search.
 
I bought a zero time Continental reman (O-470-R) based on the recommendation of my mechanic who puts a lot of these in as well as the factory new version. He has not seen any noticable difference between the two in terms of any issues. I was told the reman version has to meet "new" specs as far as tolerances, etc., and if it doesn't the company will put in new parts. I sent Continental my old core, and they send you your new/reman motor. It sure looked brand spanking new when I received it and has had zero issues currently at about 300 hrs total time. New owner loves it
 
mondtster said:
I completely agree. In fact, I’ve had a lot better luck with the engines that are perceived as being “problems” than I have with the claimed “bulletproof” ones. I’ve overhauled close to two dozen engines over the past decade (not including all the cylinder work and other major projects); almost all of which were premature failures of the common Lycoming 320s, 360s, and 540s.
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I wonder to what degree the declining GA trend in hours and usage (planes sitting), and the Lycoming vulnerability to camshaft corrosion in engines not flown regularly, is contributing to this. Over time I've owned versions of all three of these engine series, and so far have been limited to just one exhaust valve issue in one cylinder on an O-360 (first run cylinder too!) over the years.
 
To me it would depend of whether or not you intend to re-sell. The factory reman might have a bit of cachet, but if it was a plane I planned on keeping, I'd be tempted to go with a solid rebuilder for less total $$ and more knowledge of what's in it.
 
From Continental's website, $6k more for a new engine, I'd spend the $6k.

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GRG55 said:
I wonder to what degree the declining GA trend in hours and usage (planes sitting), and the Lycoming vulnerability to camshaft corrosion in engines not flown regularly, is contributing to this. Over time I've owned versions of all three of these engine series, and so far have been limited to just one exhaust valve issue in one cylinder on an O-360 (first run cylinder too!) over the years.
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I'm sure disuse in recent times hasn't helped matters but I'm not convinced it is the sole problem. Lycoming seems to have made several design changes to the cam and tappets over the years, with the last effort being the roller tappet and corresponding cam. That suggests to me that there has been a history of known problems that they have been trying to address while still playing within the boundaries that have been set between the original design and certification standards. I personally think there are oiling and geometry problems that plague these engines that haven't (and probably realistically can't) be addressed.

The older overhauls on these engines actually seem to fare better than more recent ones. I've seen some discussion about substandard materials or machining/hardening processes being employed within the last 20-30 years and the engines I've had to fix have all fallen into that "more recent" overhaul period. Coincidentally, multi viscosity oils also became popular at about the same time although I haven't seen a direct connection one way or the other there.

I've gotten to the point where I hate pulling a cylinder unless I absolutely have to. It seems like you're almost guaranteed to find something you won't like when you get it off and have a look inside.

Continentals have their problems as well, although they seem to mostly be limited to the cylinder assemblies. Thankfully most of those engines are fairly well supported with OEM and aftermarket cylinder options and are fairly easy to get which minimizes downtime.
 
Tom-D said:
Factory new must meet blue prints,,Rebuilt does not.
try to overhaul a factory rebuilt, your crank may already be undersized. your cylinders already oversized, but still meet under or over size requirements for "REBUILT" read FAR 43.2.
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as to lycomings, you are wrong. here is what lycoming states on there web page:

Lycoming is the only FAA-authorized manufacturer that can rebuild your Lycoming engine to an absolute zero-time status. We test every rebuilt engine part to new tolerances, so they meet the same requirements as a brand new Lycoming aircraft engine.

now a factory overhauled engine they state:
We measure against Lycoming Factory tolerances that exceed field requirements to ensure reliability throughout the life of your engine.

since what those factory tolerances are I do not know, you might be right on a factory overhaul, but a factory rebuilt will be to new tolerances.
 
unsafervguy said:
now a factory overhauled engine they state:
We measure against Lycoming Factory tolerances that exceed field requirements to ensure reliability throughout the life of your engine.

since what those factory tolerances are I do not know, you might be right on a factory overhaul, but a factory rebuilt will be to new tolerances.
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Field requirements are service limits, as per the overall manual. I'm sure that the re-built engines are better than that.
"Factory tolerances" for rebuilt are not factory new tolerances, they are what ever the factory says they are. New limits are blue print specific.
It's a play on words.
Zero time status,, the factory is the only one that can zero time the engine, that's true, but it doesn't mean every part in it is to new size. It can be factory tolerances just as they say.
 
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as a reliability guy.....I want parts (crank shafts) with some run-time history. Yes, it's not uncommon to see cranks live well into +8,000 hrs of use. I really don't want to bring new parts thru an infant mortality phase. So, with that, I'd prefer the "Re-Man" over the factory "new".
 
Tom-D said:
Zero time status,, the factory is the only one that can zero time the engine, that's true, but it doesn't mean every part in it is to new size. It can be factory tolerances just as they say.
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The whole "Zero time" is a bit of black magic bull crap to me. So the factory can waive a magic wand and declare an engine made of a combination new and used parts "zero time." All for the small upcharge of ~$6k (at least for our engine model). We didn't think giving Lyco an extra $6k profit margin was worth it for "zero time." So far, the Lyco factory overhaul is running like a champ.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
as a reliability guy.....I want parts (crank shafts) with some run-time history. Yes, it's not uncommon to see cranks live well into +8,000 hrs of use. I really don't want to bring new parts thru an infant mortality phase. So, with that, I'd prefer the "Re-Man" over the factory "new".
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When was the last time you actually saw "infant mortally"
The only time I can recall was the TCM crankshaft mis-milling in the 90s. even then there was no failure.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Yes, it's not uncommon to see cranks live well into +8,000 hrs of use.
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Not when they are cut every time they are overhauled.
It is legal to re-use a cranks as long as it meets the overhaul manuals size requirements.
But here is the kicker, the overhaul shops won't use it if it isn't turned and fitted with new bearings.
Superior is the only one making replacement bearing other than the OEM manufacture, and they only make standard and -010" (M10)
Superior does have a STC to go 20 under.
 
Bought a reman' 860 hrs and 4 years ago. Just had a prop strike inspection done. Valve guides worn beyond limits and the case needed machining work. Not sure they are worth a premium over any other overhaul exchange. If you buy new, you can sell your running engine as a core to someone who had a connecting rod stick out of the side of the case.
 
weilke said:
Bought a reman' 860 hrs and 4 years ago. Just had a prop strike inspection done. Valve guides worn beyond limits and the case needed machining work. Not sure they are worth a premium over any other overhaul exchange. If you buy new, you can sell your running engine as a core to someone who had a connecting rod stick out of the side of the case.
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New or used cylinders?
 
Tom-D said:
Not when they are cut every time they are overhauled.
It is legal to re-use a cranks as long as it meets the overhaul manuals size requirements.
But here is the kicker, the overhaul shops won't use it if it isn't turned and fitted with new bearings.
Superior is the only one making replacement bearing other than the OEM manufacture, and they only make standard and -010" (M10)
Superior does have a STC to go 20 under.
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cranks are not always turned at each OH.....
 
There is a very chilling thread on both twin cessna and beechtalk forums entitled "Very disappointed in CMI quality control" that is worth finding. A gentleman bought 2 new GTSIO-520s and one was... "not good"

I think it's summed up with this one quote:

"The left engine was built first and has no issues with the exception of the fuel pump. When CMI was building the right engine the factory had many delays from parts issues to broken manufacturing equipment and it was four months to finish the right engine which has all the problems."

For what a pair of GTSIO's must have cost him new, I think I'd have gone to Mobile with a pitchfork.
 
weilke said:
The reman' comes with new cylinders. When they were failed at the teardown, we had powermasters overhaul them.
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Damn, that's not too good for factory new cylinders. Conti or Lyco?
 
Tom-D said:
Field requirements are service limits, as per the overall manual. I'm sure that the re-built engines are better than that.
"Factory tolerances" for rebuilt are not factory new tolerances, they are what ever the factory says they are. New limits are blue print specific.
It's a play on words.
Zero time status,, the factory is the only one that can zero time the engine, that's true, but it doesn't mean every part in it is to new size. It can be factory tolerances just as they say.
Click to expand...
You did not read what I posted. Lycoming states zero time are to NEW tolerances overhauled are not.
 
unsafervguy said:
You did not read what I posted. Lycoming states zero time are to NEW tolerances overhauled are not.
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understand the difference between the two. Zero timed are new engines with old serial numbers. anything else are required to comply with the FARs just like any one else.
 
I started out wanting to do a factory overhaul exchange for my O360 but Lycoming wont take an engine over 36 years old as a core. They wanted to push me into a rebuilt for 5K more. I drove it up to Penn Yan and got a nice tour of the place. I will get my own engine back with new cylinders. cam and tappets for less the Lycoming wanted for an exchange,
 
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