FAA Suspends ODP Arrivals for ATL

RyanB

RyanB

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This explains why the old procedures were thrown away and replaced with the new SIDs that have been implemented at ATL. An excerpt from this safety bulletin says
"The ambiguities resulted in numerous un-intentional pilot deviations and filing of ASAP reports. Effective immediately, OPD procedures have been suspended for KATL and NOTAMS were published on December 23, 2016."

https://www.ifalpa.org/downloads/Level1/Safety Bulletins/Air Traffic Management/17SAB01 - FAA Suspends OPD Arrivals for Atlanta International Airport.pdf

I am curious to know if anyone here can expand on this and share anything you know.
 
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When I flew that world I never had a problem with flying them. Usually the controllers took you off the procedure anyway and/or adjusted your speed too for their traffic. Pilots, many of them anyway, were always confused about it. All one has to do is query the controller for what they want.
 
mscard88 said:
When I flew that world I never had a problem with flying them. Usually the controllers took you off the procedure anyway and/or adjusted your speed too for their traffic. Pilots, many of them anyway, were always confused about it. All one has to do is query the controller for what they want.
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Evidently it was a frequent occurrence for that to take place. I'll have to query my 777 buddy next time I see him at the airport.
 
I've flown about half of those arrivals. There's nothing really challenging about them. Everytime I've been into ATL they've given us a "descend via" maybe only a handful amount of times.
 
What was happening were the arrivals were busting the bottom altitude and creating a conflict for departures...in a nutshell. ;)
 
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Walboy said:
What's an ODP arrival? Seems like an oxymoron given definition of ODP. Also, what's an ASAP report?
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Optimized Profile Decent arrival. It's supposed to conserve fuel and make the TODs at the optimal altitude so you burn the least amount of gas. ASAP reports are kind of like "get out of jail" reports. You can report your mistakes as long as you didn't intentionally bust a reg or company policy and you usually won't receive any backlash. Totally depends on the situation though. It's to help other pilots and learn from each other's mistakes.
 
Walboy said:
So an ASAP report is different than a ASRS report?
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I know the ASAP program is completely voluntary for the company. The company can choose whether or not they want available for their pilots or not. I think it's the same idea as an ASRS Report but just geared towards certificate holders.

https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/asap/
 
Velocity173 said:
What was happening was the arrivals were busting the bottom altitude and creating a conflict for departures...in a nutshell. ;)
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jordane93 said:
Optimized Profile Decent arrival. It's supposed to conserve fuel and make the TODs at the optimal altitude so you burn the least amount of gas. ASAP reports are kind of like "get out of jail" reports. You can report your mistakes as long as you didn't intentionally bust a reg or company policy and you usually won't receive any backlash. Totally depends on the situation though. It's to help other pilots and learn from each other's mistakes.
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Makes sense. Thanks for the info guys!
 
This issue stretches back to 2009. Search the ASRS database for occurrences at ATL where the reporter was a controller, and you'll find a ton of these reports. The main issue was that the way these were designed requires controllers to converge two streams of arrivals doing 280 knots within 40 miles of the airport. The controllers who reported to AT-SAP (whose reports also get placed into ASRS) all stated it would be easier and safer to have aircraft enter the ATL TRACON boundary at a hard altitude rather than have them descending.

ASRS 1402892 said:
It is unacceptable to get aircraft at 280 knots on the base leg, with unpredictable compression (there is a 15 mile window in which the pilot can slow to 250 knots), especially when two base leg feeds are routinely fed to the same runway. Many times it is inappropriate to feed the Final Controller at a speed greater than 210 knots (our facility Standard Operating Procedures specifically states that the final should not normally be fed at speeds greater than 210 knots), and aircraft "descending via" are unable to make altitude restrictions if slowed beyond the 280/250 knot restrictions on the Optimum Profile Descent (OPD) arrival procedures.
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Harold Rutila said:
This issue stretches back to 2009. Search the ASRS database for occurrences at ATL where the reporter was a controller, and you'll find a ton of these reports. The main issue was that the way these were designed requires controllers to converge two streams of arrivals doing 280 knots within 40 miles of the airport. The controllers who reported to AT-SAP (whose reports also get placed into ASRS) all stated it would be easier and safer to have aircraft enter the ATL TRACON boundary at a hard altitude rather than have them descending.
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I was based at ATL when these things started. On initial contact w/ ATL approach they'd take you off the procedure and do what they had to in order to work you in, vectors, change your speed, etc.
 
They'll be looking at working these arrivals back in again in October but south side only.
 
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where is the terrain to avoid at ATL? about 500 ne?

Oh wait, OPD not ODP . . .
 
the problem comes in with older aircraft that do not have the VNAV capabilities to do the decent by its shelf with protections. the bus has no problem flying them without any input. it will protect the speeds and altitudes. now for example, the EMB-145 has no vertical nav, so you have to set each altitude and figure the decent and speed reduction manually. it can be a real pain and is ripe for an altitude or speed bust. im guessing thats where most of the deviations come from is older aircraft doing them.
 
unsafervguy said:
the problem comes in with older aircraft that do not have the VNAV capabilities to do the decent by its shelf with protections. the bus has no problem flying them without any input. it will protect the speeds and altitudes. now for example, the EMB-145 has no vertical nav, so you have to set each altitude and figure the decent and speed reduction manually. it can be a real pain and is ripe for an altitude or speed bust. im guessing thats where most of the deviations come from is older aircraft doing them.
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Our CRJs don't have VNAV. The arrivals aren't bad but we just have to watch the advisory VNAV to make sure we're going to make the crossing restrictions.
 
unsafervguy said:
the problem comes in with older aircraft that do not have the VNAV capabilities to do the decent by its shelf with protections. the bus has no problem flying them without any input. it will protect the speeds and altitudes. now for example, the EMB-145 has no vertical nav, so you have to set each altitude and figure the decent and speed reduction manually. it can be a real pain and is ripe for an altitude or speed bust. im guessing thats where most of the deviations come from is older aircraft doing them.
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God forbid you have to fly an airplane...
 
unsafervguy said:
the problem comes in with older aircraft that do not have the VNAV capabilities to do the decent by its shelf with protections. the bus has no problem flying them without any input. it will protect the speeds and altitudes. now for example, the EMB-145 has no vertical nav, so you have to set each altitude and figure the decent and speed reduction manually. it can be a real pain and is ripe for an altitude or speed bust. im guessing thats where most of the deviations come from is older aircraft doing them.
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Ahhh.... the Bus thinks it can do it, but often it can't. +/- 600 feet and 30 kts you're fine.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
God forbid you have to fly an airplane...
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That's not the problem, the problem is not having the restrictions in the fms and having to watch a lot of crossing restrictions and slow downs in a high workload phase. Type in the wrong altitude or mis-read the plate and it's deviation time. Do it five or six times a day with an old fms it s easy to make a mistake.
 
unsafervguy said:
I like when it comes out of flight idle, then goes back to flight idle and tells you "more drag"
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Yup. Just no telling what it will do. In theory it works great.... but we all know how that works..

And God forbid ATC assigns a different speed than is set in the CI... the damn descent profile falls apart.
 
unsafervguy said:
That's not the problem, the problem is not having the restrictions in the fms and having to watch a lot of crossing restrictions and slow downs in a high workload phase. Type in the wrong altitude or mis-read the plate and it's deviation time. Do it five or six times a day with an old fms it s easy to make a mistake.
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Yeah, you're not making yourself look any better. I fly a non-Vnav equipped plane into ATL, based in ATL. It's not rocket science, just do your damn job.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Yeah, you're not making yourself look any better. I fly a non-Vnav equipped plane into ATL, based in ATL. It's not rocket science, just do your damn job.
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i feel for the people that are paired with you, by the way I do my "damn" job, but since not only ATl but other cities and canada have stopped issuing them i guess there are just to many people not doing there "damn" job. there are safety issues that need to be addressed, but so what, safety can be improved by everyone just doing their "damn" job.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Yeah, you're not making yourself look any better. I fly a non-Vnav equipped plane into ATL, based in ATL. It's not rocket science, just do your damn job.
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But that interferes with reading Penthouse, I mean USA Today.
 
Some arrival procedures have a good amount of detail, restrictions, & speed segments. Not a real biggie until they change stuff as you start down. I vote for reasonable arrivals then let ATC adjust as you go in. Look at ORD, one of the later ones to get the more details arrivals, though they often still stair-step you down with assigned speeds.

What's a few knots between friends anyway? Usually when you see 10 miles in trail on the aircraft in front, maintain that distance, which will be reduced with approach sequencing.
 
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