FAA, Let us make our planes safer!

JohnAJohnson said:
I've always believed that if you remove all the safety devices on all cars (bumpers, airbags, seat belts, crush zones, etc.), and instead installed a sharp spike sticking out of the steering wheel hub a few inches from the drivers chest, you'd have infinitely safer highways.
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They tried that with Corvairs................ And it worked..:eek:
 
Everskyward said:
I don't have any idea how much it costs to make them but it looks like Cessna is selling them starting at $289,500. However, they are in business to make money so it seems to me that they would sell them at the highest price possible, as long as people buy them, rather than the lowest price.

http://www.cessna.com/single-engine/skyhawk

I have no idea what the sweet spot in pricing would be for Cessna but their list price is as much as many people pay for a house, and this is for something that is basically a toy.

I think that Brian had it mostly right when he said that there are few people who love it enough to justify the cost. But I think the cost comes not only in $$$ but in time and effort. People with plenty of money and some interest are still reluctant, maybe because they have other things they would rather do with their time and money. I've also had people who I know could afford it tell me that they didn't have the time to invest in order to do it right. This self-awareness is probably a good thing.
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Has Cessna made dramatic changes to their airframes since the 70's to justify that price? Or was it the merely the cost of certifying those avionics that has driven the cost through the roof? If I bought a new -172 with just steam gauges, would I then be paying 1970 prices (plus inflation)? Who's fault is it that that aircraft with an airframe built from 1960's tooling costs 20 times more 50 years later?
 
Banjo33 said:
Has Cessna made dramatic changes to their airframes since the 70's to justify that price? Or was it the merely the cost of certifying those avionics that has driven the cost through the roof? If I bought a new -172 with just steam gauges, would I then be paying 1970 prices (plus inflation)? Who's fault is it that that aircraft with an airframe built from 1960's tooling costs 20 times more 50 years later?
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You would need to ask someone besides me how Cessna can justify their prices. But I think what people need to keep in mind is that Cessna is not a charity, and neither are other aircraft manufacturers. They are in business to make money. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, either. But if they can sell 10 airplanes for $300,000 each it seems that they are doing better than if they sell 50 airplanes for $60,000 each.
 
LJS1993 said:
Let's say something around the price of $75,000 with C-172 capabilities. Is it really costing Textron that much to make brand new 172's?
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That would be nice. How much should a crew cab pickup cost?
 
Everskyward said:
You would need to ask someone besides me how Cessna can justify their prices. But I think what people need to keep in mind is that Cessna is not a charity, and neither are other aircraft manufacturers. They are in business to make money. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, either. But if they can sell 10 airplanes for $300,000 each it seems that they are doing better than if they sell 50 airplanes for $60,000 each.
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No need to ask. It is justified by the fact that they sell planes every year. If there are enough people willing to pay that amount to make it worth their while to build them, that that is what they will do.
 
Would 50 aircraft per year not require more training centers, more parts availability, more service calls, etc? Seems that as often as they are doing layoffs, furloughs, etc they would eventually reassess their current business model.
 
Banjo33 said:
Would 50 aircraft per year not require more training centers, more parts availability, more service calls, etc? Seems that as often as they are doing layoffs, furloughs, etc they would eventually reassess their current business model.
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Do you think that those items would make up the $240,000 difference in hypothetical airplane price? These would be new aircraft, under warranty for a while.
 
But they're flying for 50 years, so yeah, in the long run, I think they would. In spades.
 
Banjo33 said:
But they're flying for 50 years, so yeah, in the long run, I think they would. In spades.
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Maybe they wouldn't be flying for 50 years if people could buy the equivalent for $60,000 instead of $300,000. Besides, the manufacturer would be getting the $300,000 up front instead of over 50 years, that is, if people would actually spend that much at Cessna or other manufacturer over the life of the airplane.
 
Yeah, they've survived for 50+ years of increasing costs like everybody else who's been in business for that length of time. What were you paying for gasoline back then? Every currency that has existed has dealt with inflation, so that's an obvious part of price changes, but the changes in economic circumstances are even more important. Both of my kids were born in the 60's and the combined cost of physicians (OB, Pediatric, etc) and 4-day big-city hospital stay for each was less than $500. The hospital bill alone for my MIL's 2-day stay at a small-town hospital last year was $18,000, and no procedures were involved.

Banjo33 said:
Has Cessna made dramatic changes to their airframes since the 70's to justify that price? Or was it the merely the cost of certifying those avionics that has driven the cost through the roof? If I bought a new -172 with just steam gauges, would I then be paying 1970 prices (plus inflation)? Who's fault is it that that aircraft with an airframe built from 1960's tooling costs 20 times more 50 years later?
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wabower said:
Yeah, they've survived for 50+ years of increasing costs like everybody else who's been in business for that length of time. What were you paying for gasoline back then? Every currency that has existed has dealt with inflation, so that's an obvious part of price changes, but the changes in economic circumstances are even more important. Both of my kids were born in the 60's and the combined cost of physicians (OB, Pediatric, etc) and 4-day big-city hospital stay for each was less than $500. The hospital bill alone for my MIL's 2-day stay at a small-town hospital last year was $18,000, and no procedures were involved.
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My plan for when someone tries to send me to a nursing home:

-Buy a Duke
-Take off from LA
-Fly heading 270

Hell of a lot cheaper and more fun way to go.
 
wabower said:
The hospital bill alone for my MIL's 2-day stay at a small-town hospital last year was $18,000, and no procedures were involved.
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That's simply because you are paying their litigation fees up front.
 
AuntPeggy said:
I only went skiing once, but I think that the equipment was new and in good condition. I don't remember it costing as much as a day of flying would. But, it was a long time ago, and I could be wrong. I do know that I've invested megabucks in flying.
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In my little 150 there ain't much difference in cost when I include the cost of driving to my place in Tahoe. And yes, I enjoy skiing. :yes:
 
Aeric said:
In my little 150 there ain't much difference in cost when I include the cost of driving to my place in Tahoe. And yes, I enjoy skiing. :yes:
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Sacrilege. Tahoe has an airport, you should be flying there.
 
JHW said:
Sacrilege. Tahoe has an airport, you should be flying there.
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That. And depending on vehicle, the price difference in fuel isn't that great. Depending on winds, I can get 15-20smpg in the Mooney flying direct at speeds of 165-175mph. My F-150 Supercrew plodding along at 75mph following the roads gets 15mpg. Not much of a premium to fly.
 
Bill Jennings said:
That. And depending on vehicle, the price difference in fuel isn't that great. Depending on winds, I can get 15-20smpg in the Mooney flying direct at speeds of 165-175mph. My F-150 Supercrew plodding along at 75mph following the roads gets 15mpg. Not much of a premium to fly.
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Agreed, my TL gets 30 on the highway following roads, the 150, about 23smpg direct at 100mph. If I could only find non-alcohol mogas...
 
At the end of the day -- if you want to be able to do whatever you want with your aircraft without the man holding you down buy an Experimental. Just realize that you can now do whatever you want with your aircraft and so could the person before you. So use your head otherwise your newly found powers will cause you to do something stupid which will in turn kill you.

Wanting a certified to be an experimental eliminates everything a certified is supposed to be, you know, certified.
 
jesse said:
At the end of the day -- if you want to be able to do whatever you want with your aircraft without the man holding you down buy an Experimental. Just realize that you can now do whatever you want with your aircraft and so could the person before you. So use your head otherwise your newly found powers will cause you to do something stupid which will in turn kill you.

Wanting a certified to be an experimental eliminates everything a certified is supposed to be, you know, certified.
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But, but, but I want freedom and gov't guaranteed safety:lol:
 
JohnAJohnson said:
Lots of people with mega bucks don't own their own plane or fly. It isn't because it's expensive, it's because GA is impractical for 99% of us.

And that makes it expensive for the 1% who find it practical, or fun/interesting enough to overcome the impracticality.
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"Impractical", that really hits the heart of the matter.

Aircraft and flying is impractical for so many people, on so many levels. The training required to get over the threshold and get a certificate is impractical for many aspiring pilots. The proficiency required to be be safe in a complex or even simple aircraft is impractical for many recreational fliers. The cost and complexity of an aircraft that can do serious travel is impractical for many wannabe owners. The limits of a simple aircraft like a sailplane, Cub, C-150 or any LSA make them impractical for many wannabe travelers.

But for those of us that find flight and aircraft fun and interesting enough to pursue anyway have many options. And the options are growing and getting better every year. When you narrow the problems down from the impracticalities of flight and aircraft in general, down to expense of owning and operating your own airplane, many of the solutions lie in the buying and/or building of E/AB aircraft....

jesse said:
At the end of the day -- if you want to be able to do whatever you want with your aircraft without the man holding you down buy an Experimental. Just realize that you can now do whatever you want with your aircraft and so could the person before you. So use your head otherwise your newly found powers will cause you to do something stupid which will in turn kill you.

Wanting a certified to be an experimental eliminates everything a certified is supposed to be, you know, certified.
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Yep.
 
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jesse said:
Wanting a certified to be an experimental eliminates everything a certified is supposed to be, you know, certified.
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The one caveat with that is that allowing currently certified aircraft to become experimental permanently (the "owner experimental" idea) shouldn't be much different from buying a used experimental. Then you can do whatever you want.
 
jesse said:
At the end of the day -- if you want to be able to do whatever you want with your aircraft without the man holding you down buy an Experimental. Just realize that you can now do whatever you want with your aircraft and so could the person before you. So use your head otherwise your newly found powers will cause you to do something stupid which will in turn kill you.

Wanting a certified to be an experimental eliminates everything a certified is supposed to be, you know, certified.
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But, but, there isn't an experimental and a certified in autos and auto safety is getting better while GA safety has stagnated. I don't want to be penalized for increasing the safety of my aircraft.
 
AuntPeggy said:
But, but, there isn't an experimental and a certified in autos and auto safety is getting better while GA safety has stagnated. I don't want to be penalized for increasing the safety of my aircraft.
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Uh, yeah there is. There is absolutely amateur/homebuilt/custom cars built from scratch. And they are even legal to drive on the road.
 
AP, can you list SPECIFICALLY three items you want in your plane that will improve your safety in your plane and is NOT AVAILABLE to you because the items are not certified? Be specific, who builds it and what does it do to enhance safety for you?
 
And following up on Ed, these amateur vehicles generally have to be taken through a series of hoops to get paperwork so they can legally be used on public roads. Ask anybody who has built a custom bike.
 
ronnieh said:
AP, can you list SPECIFICALLY three items you want in your plane that will improve your safety in your plane and is NOT AVAILABLE to you because the items are not certified? Be specific, who builds it and what does it do to enhance safety for you?
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You do understand that cost is part of the equation?
 
I said that "are not certified". Your premise is that if the item is not certified it will be priced in your price range. Which un certified items are you ready to purchase that would make your plane safer?
 
AP, can you list SPECIFICALLY three items you want in your plane that will improve your safety in your plane and is NOT AVAILABLE to you because the items are not certified? Be specific, who builds it and what does it do to enhance safety for you?
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I'm not Aunt Peggy, and I haven't even finished training, but I don't see why you can't put a modern tire (like something steel belted -- 1970's technology) on a plane. Is there any real advantage to using "real" rubber?
 
AuntPeggy said:
But, but, there isn't an experimental and a certified in autos and auto safety is getting better while GA safety has stagnated. I don't want to be penalized for increasing the safety of my aircraft.
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You are incorrect, as Ed pointed out.

You'd actually probably be surprised at how many things you can install in your car that are not approved for use on public roads. The difference is that in the auto world, nobody cares.
 
Derek Zeanah said:
I'm not Aunt Peggy, and I haven't even finished training, but I don't see why you can't put a modern tire (like something steel belted -- 1970's technology) on a plane. Is there any real advantage to using "real" rubber?
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what is the perceived problem with currently available tires that you are trying to address with something heavier and more costly ? If there is one part of the plane where there is enormous selection of aftermarket vendors, it's tires.
 
AuntPeggy said:
But, but, there isn't an experimental and a certified in autos and auto safety is getting better while GA safety has stagnated. I don't want to be penalized for increasing the safety of my aircraft.
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You can pull over in your car if there is a minor malfunction. In your airplane you'll most likely just die. Small fire in car? Pull over. Small fire in airplane? Burn up.

Of course they're treated different. They are VERY different.

Do you think you can manufacture a new car, mass-produce it, and sell it to the general public without dealing with LOTS of government red tape? It's just as bad as it is in aviation...they just have bigger pockets.
 
Derek Zeanah said:
I'm not Aunt Peggy, and I haven't even finished training, but I don't see why you can't put a modern tire (like something steel belted -- 1970's technology) on a plane. Is there any real advantage to using "real" rubber?
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I'm not a tire expert, but the other question I'd ask is:

"Is there an advantage to the newer, steel-belted technology on a plane?"

Just because it's newer does not always mean it's better.
 
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