JHW
En-Route
I can't buy the notion that "glass" has anything to do with safety. For example, tapes, I have yet to meet anyone who cut their teeth with tapes and who doesn't prefer round dials (myself included)
FAA, Let us make our planes safer!
- Thread starter AuntPeggy
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The demise of skiing? No, I love skiing! Except that most places now charge nearly $100 per day. What do you mean, safety has plateaued? Yeah, skiing down a mountain is not the tamest sport, but if you want safety, stay on the bunny slopes. No one wore helmets when I learned to ski, I'm not sure I'll ever wear a helmet, but I'll most likely put one on my child when she learns to ski.
Geico266
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Guessing $250k.
I learned to ski when I was very small, 4 or 5, because my parents skied, and put the kids in ski school. I plan on doing the same with my toddler in a few years. I do think skiing is much more expensive than it used to be, if one lift ticket is nearly $100/day. I think skiing is something best learned while very small. It's much harder for adults to learn to ski than children.
My father built a Seawind, and spent $250k just to build it, not counting his eight years of labor. He knows a few people who have had Seawinds built for them and the total cost was more $500k-$600k.
JHW
En-Route
you must be mistaken. per this thread we have learned that GA is dying because it is "unsafe". Therefore all expensive hobbies that are "unsafe" must also be dying. Granted, I have trouble getting my kids into ski school each year because they are overflowing and the motorcycle parking at work has a waiting list for spots, but those things must not be true, it has to be some sort of trick because by definition, those activities are "unsafe" so they must be dying out. According to the logic of this thread which is infallible.
Let me break this down for you.
Johnny builds a safety feature for aircraft. He sells it to Tommy for $150 and Tommy has his mechanic put it into his airplane for the cost of 1 hour of labor.
Johnny wants to sell his safety feature to AuntPeggy, but in order to do so, he must spend $250,000 for additional testing and sell it to AuntPeggy for $1500 and the mechanic must spend 3 hours installing, logging, certifying.
Johnny builds a safety feature for aircraft. He sells it to Tommy for $150 and Tommy has his mechanic put it into his airplane for the cost of 1 hour of labor.
Johnny wants to sell his safety feature to AuntPeggy, but in order to do so, he must spend $250,000 for additional testing and sell it to AuntPeggy for $1500 and the mechanic must spend 3 hours installing, logging, certifying.
bnt83
Final Approach
The economics are hard to swallow to fly.
Cost per mile to fly is what? Near a dollar if you rent without paying for a medical, insurance and recurrent training, charts etc.
Cost per mile to fly is what? Near a dollar if you rent without paying for a medical, insurance and recurrent training, charts etc.
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Everything is much more expensive. My 1st new motorcycle in 1994 (after a string of used bikes) was a 600 sportbike that was $5400 out the door. Eqivalent bike today is $11500ish msrp.
JHW
En-Route
please cite a real-world example of this "safety feature". What i see are pretty lax rules to allow easy installation of shoulder belts, AOA warnings. Things that are clearly "safety" devices. What i hear people complaining about is wanting to mount a glass display or an ipad in the panel wherever they want. Those things are not at all agreed to be "safety" devices.
bnt83
Final Approach
The #1 reason people don't fly is because they aren't in love with it to spend the $. They can't justify it.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Why is Aunt Peggy using a mentally retarded mechanic that takes three times as long to install it? Maybe Aunt Peggy should have just used her cum laude college degree to build her own safety feature that costs $150 plus one our of labor like Johnny did.
poadeleted21
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I think your blame for the $250,000 is misguided.
He must spend $25,000 ($24,000 of which he probably would have done anyway for QA testing purposes) for the certification, $225,000 in liability insurance. add $10,000 to the per unit cost instead of $10 for a car because his market size is 1000 time smaller.
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What you have done is turned the logic around. I.e. if all dogs are animals, then all animals are dogs. And where does that leave cats?
I am saying that the cost of safety imposed by FAA regulations is inhibiting the safety of our aviation, increasing the cost of our aviation, and leading to the demise of our aviation. I am not saying that FAA regulations are having any effect on skiing or motorcycles.
How much of the time and expense of skiing goes toward government mandated paperwork? How much does it cost to go to skiing school? How much does the equipment cost? How much does it cost to repair or replace the equipment and how much of that cost is related to cost of goods?
I only went skiing once, but I think that the equipment was new and in good condition. I don't remember it costing as much as a day of flying would. But, it was a long time ago, and I could be wrong. I do know that I've invested megabucks in flying.
Nope. I turned the whole discussion to aircraft.
Geico266
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EdFred
Taxi to Parking
No. You brought up cars early on.
wabower
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Wayne
ok.
I still stand by my original premise, though.
AP, without knowing Johnny's qualifications and pretty sure most owners don't have the knowledge to ascertain if the device is safe and effective, I don't think it would be a good idea to install it. Also what about subsequent owners? Do you want them to just assume Johnny knew what he was doing? (post 248)
Two recent threads on GA safety. The first by Cocolos that went to 125 posts and morphed a couple of times and one morphed posts by AP started a new thread and it has so far gone to 253 posts and still counting.
There is a lot of interest and strong opinions on the safety (or lack of) in small SE aircraft. I have heard many opinions on the causes of the lack of safety and the fixes. Also many have opined that it is a safe activity and that the statistics do not apply to them. Then there are some who simply recognize the activity for what it is and simply accept the risks.
It has been interesting.
Two recent threads on GA safety. The first by Cocolos that went to 125 posts and morphed a couple of times and one morphed posts by AP started a new thread and it has so far gone to 253 posts and still counting.
There is a lot of interest and strong opinions on the safety (or lack of) in small SE aircraft. I have heard many opinions on the causes of the lack of safety and the fixes. Also many have opined that it is a safe activity and that the statistics do not apply to them. Then there are some who simply recognize the activity for what it is and simply accept the risks.
It has been interesting.
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Geico266
Touchdown! Greaser!
Everything she is looking for exists in the experimental category but she refuses recognize it. In one post she was afraid of flying limitations placed on experimentals only to learn there are none.
There is a reason experimental aircraft are by far the fastest growing segment of GA.
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flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
The problem lies in some other areas, though - For example, we use oleo strut seals made of really old (read: obsolete) blends of rubber that easily dry out, crack, and have to be replaced every year instead of newer rubbers that would last much longer. So, we spend $250 every single year getting our struts rebuilt. That's only one example, but they all add up, and eventually what happens is that there's no money left for actually flying and staying proficient, and pilots get into accidents because they haven't been flying enough 'cuz they spent last month's flying budget getting struts rebuilt and door stops replaced.
Geico266
Touchdown! Greaser!
Sidebar.
GEICO is extremely encouraged by the positive comments on experimentals and slaying of some popular myths. One of the great attributes to experimentals is the ability to take advantage of new products and technology at very reasonable cost over certified, burn mogas without any paperwork, and do maintenance without an A&P.
I am in no way saying experimentals are for everyone. In fact, they are not for everyone!
Carry on!
GEICO is extremely encouraged by the positive comments on experimentals and slaying of some popular myths. One of the great attributes to experimentals is the ability to take advantage of new products and technology at very reasonable cost over certified, burn mogas without any paperwork, and do maintenance without an A&P.
I am in no way saying experimentals are for everyone. In fact, they are not for everyone!
Carry on!
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I believe this to be true. For all hobbies.
poadeleted21
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Sidebar.
GEICO is extremely encouraged by the positive comments on experimentals and slaying of some popular myths. One of the great attributes to experimentals is the ability to take advantage of new products and technology at very reasonable cost over certified, burn mogas without any paperwork, and do maintenance without an A&P.
Carry on!
I still see Lycoming$ and Garmin$ mounted in the experimentals. I've never had an A&P do one minute of work I would have otherwise done, and I consider myself fairly handy with a wrench (I used to get cars with busted engines from the dealership and overhaul, replace heads etc... and had a side business in college maintaining motorcycles and 4 wheelers). The last thing I want is someone with the mechanical aptitude that I've seen displayed in this very thread doing unsupervised maintenance on a plane I might buy.
bnt83
Final Approach
Do I spend a $100 on one hour of flight time in POS rental C150 or take the family out?
LJS1993
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LJ Savala
You know in my mind until planes with the same safety or comparable safety features that are presently in cars are made more affordable safety will always be an issue in general aviation.
John Baker
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John Baker
Most all of my annuals on my little warrior ran between three and five thousand dollars plus what I had to spend with the avionics guy. If you want to own certified, you better have a good source of income, like working for the FAA, or perhaps an A&E with your own shop.
-John
-John
VanDy
Cleared for Takeoff
Bob Hoover doesnt need a lid! Why should I?
JHW
En-Route
how about we drop the platitudes and look at a specific example ?
I once assisted my neighbor in developing an STC for a shoudler harness kit for comanches. That's about as safety related as you can get.
What was involved:
- He borrowed a wrecked comanche fuselage from a salvage yard and incurred a cost of a few hundred $$ to transport it.
- I made a rig to exert a pull force at various angles using a spring scale to measure the force. Cost a few hundred $$ in materials and a week of evenings of my time.
- We hired a local DER for a cost of ~$500 to write a 1-page letter that the forces we were exerting were consistent with good practice for the material to which the clevis was attached (It took him about 20 minutes to review the photos we showed him and write the letter)
- We invited a rep from the kansas city FSDO to view our test rig. That wook a week to schedule and a half day for the meeting.
- It took about 3 months following that for our paperwork to be done and the STC to be issued.
bnt83
Final Approach
Only with folks how feel airplanes aren't safe
#1 The ones who can't afford it
#2 The ones too chicken sh_+t to trust themselves to fly an airplane
#3 The ones who just don't care
#4 A very very small group who tried but can't do it.
Just because we are addicted like crack babies doesn't mean we can hook everyone else.
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poadeleted21
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My first year (the worst one) annual on my Bonanza (gasp retractable gear) done by a very thorough Bonanza guru (BPPP mechanic, well respected) was $2,600. I fully expect it to be half that next year. that's not just the annual, but all the squawks it turned up too along with some "while we're in there" stuff. I imagine it was about $100 more had it been an experimental due to a couple of high dollar bushings.
JHW
En-Route
I'd guess your costs are dictated by your zip code, or you don't like getting your hands dirty. I have yet to have an annual top $1K on my twin engine retractable gear plane.
JHW
En-Route
something is wrong there. Even buying the seals from beechcraft I rebuilt mine for ~$15 in parts and about 3 hours of my time.
I would venture a guess that most pilots don't quite have that scenario and could do both if they want. If that's truly the option, I would suggest saving the $100 for a rainy day.
LJS1993
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LJ Savala
True I see your point. Okay how about using the term increased safety? Wouldn't it be absolutely cool if more pilots could afford the newest aircraft or at least those with more safety features? Wouldn't it be cool if overall aviation just wasn't so expensive yet at the same time maintaining the current or increased safety?
JHW
En-Route
wouldn't it be cool if more devices and "safety innovations" actually made a measurable improvement in safety? But example after example says they don't, going all the way back to the unstallable unspinnable ungroundloopable ercoupe that had a fatal accident rate higher than luscombs and aeroncas of the same vintage.