FAA approves iPads for pilots' electronic charts

Thanks, that's what I ordered on the Apple site. I hear there's a new blue tooth GPS that's to be released shortly. Might be out by the time I get the Ipad.

Best,

Dave
 
FlyNE said:
You will need to use an external GPS anyway if you plan to use georef approach plates from the likes of foreflight. They don't support the internal GPS because of accuracy (the externals are WAAS capable). The internal GPS would be fine for driving and other such "non-critical" activities.
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Huh? No you don't. ForeFlight's georef works on my 3G iPad with just the internal GPS.

IMO, georef is "non-critical" because you can't shoot an approach using that as your guidance (unless you are a complete freaking idiot). Situational awareness, ok, but it's a crutch and if you rely on it for SA you need to work on your flying skills. (This is, of course, a generic "you," not pointed at Jason.)

The only time I've flown an approach in actual since I got the georef capability in ForeFlight, I didn't even notice it because by the time I was on the plate, I was already on the needles so I never looked at the iPad when the little blue plane was on the plate. LOL
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Huh? No you don't. ForeFlight's georef works on my 3G iPad with just the internal GPS.

IMO, georef is "non-critical" because you can't shoot an approach using that as your guidance (unless you are a complete freaking idiot). Situational awareness, ok, but it's a crutch and if you rely on it for SA you need to work on your flying skills. (This is, of course, a generic "you," not pointed at Jason.)

The only time I've flown an approach in actual since I got the georef capability in ForeFlight, I didn't even notice it because by the time I was on the plate, I was already on the needles so I never looked at the iPad when the little blue plane was on the plate. LOL
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Ah. I guess I was working off of stale information. They had previously said that they didn't believe the internal GPS good enough.

Foreflight said:
In 2010, we didn’t believe the internal iPhone GPS performed well enough to warrant enabling geo-referenced approach plates, so we punted. When customers asked us why geo-referencing was not available, the reply was simple: not ready for prime time.


In November of 2010, the first external, Apple-approved GPS accessories hit the market. Even with those, we uncovered issues after hours of flight and taxi testing by ForeFlight team members and our elite beta test team. We worked directly with one external GPS hardware provider – Bad Elf – to make firmware changes that brought device performance to a satisfactory level.


The firmware changes, combined with a range of software rules we implemented to account for iOS behaviors, resulted in a solution that we think is ready for customers. And, you were all very, very loud: you want geo-referenced approach plates.


As our new partner Seattle Avionics might attest to – after having witnessed patiently our development process – the level of attention to detail in this implementation is high. We went through dozens of iterations and polished this new capability as best we could before making it generally available. We believe it is the best solution available for iOS devices on the market today.


All said, it’s important to provide a word of caution. Geo-referenced plates on an iPad – even with external GPS accessories – are not a suitable substitute for approach certified avionics. Use good judgement in determining where, when, and under what conditions it fits in your workflow. And as the AOPA Saftey Foundation’s iPanel spoof reminds us all, fly the airplane.
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This is what I found on their FAQ page.

Foreflight said:
  • The GPS is not WAAS and not "aviation" grade. While you can often get 5-10m accuracy fixes from it, it is not as reliable as an aviation handheld. Additionally there is a second or so lag in position updates compared to purpose-build aviation handhelds.
  • An external GPS receiver should perform better when a limited view of the sky is available to the iPad. Additionally external GPSs provide more consistent fixes. See our buying guide for the current recommended accessories list.
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And from their blog...

Foreflight said:
If you buy a 3G model, we still recommend an external GPS adapter for better accuracy.
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Dave Siciliano said:
That may be the one. I heard it wasn't released yet. Good reviews?

Best,

Dave
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Sounds like people are liking it. The only complaint that I've seen is that they use a really weird power "switch" (you swipe across it to turn it on and shut it off). The complain is that it doesn't always work the first time you swipe.

I bought the bad elf because I didn't want to have to worry about keeping something else charged. Plus, I can monitor the iPad battery level right on the screen...so if I'm about to lose the GPS, I'm about to lose the iPad and I'll know it. That said, it's another thing hanging off of the iPad. I think I'll find a way to make it work well.

We tried out the georef stuff the other night on one of my instrument lessons. Before the lesson, Jesse said that he wasn't going to buy into it. After the lesson he said something the the effect of "I'm sold".
 
Geo referenced plates aren't the big deal to me; still, might get the supplemental GPS. I have three GPS units in the Baron now and can pretty tell where I am <g>. May use it other places.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Geo referenced plates aren't the big deal to me; still, might get the supplemental GPS. I have three GPS units in the Baron now and can pretty tell where I am <g>. May use it other places.
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Dave,

I would just buy one of the 3G models then - The internal GPS in those is plenty good for a multitude of other uses - Both car navigation and a plethora of other "location-aware" apps. (Example: UrbanSpoon - No matter where you are, find a restaurant nearby of whatever type you're hankerin' for!)
 
Kent: I already ordered a wifi unit from Apple. My smart phone has GPS also, Android. Don't know how hard it would be to cancel and reorder.

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Kent: I already ordered a wifi unit from Apple. My smart phone has GPS also, Android. Don't know how hard it would be to cancel and reorder.
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Hmmm... Not sure, but worth a try IMO. There's a lot of neat stuff that's done with the location-aware abilities.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Kent: I already ordered a wifi unit from Apple. My smart phone has GPS also, Android. Don't know how hard it would be to cancel and reorder.

Dave
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I think you'll be fine with the wifi only version if your main reason for getting the iPad is to use something like ForeFlight in the cockpit. I went with the 3G model because I expect that I'll eventually want to connect (ATT) for other uses and to receive weather updates on the ground at airports with cellular but no wifi. The 3G models also include mems gyros which could eventually be used with an app to give you a usable backup attitude indicator.

BTW I also got a GNS 5870 Bluetooth GPS for use in the airplane. It seems to work OK but at times it's a PITA to turn off and I think it's turned itself on a couple times when it was in my pocket.
 
Thanks. What did y'all do for a screen protector? I didn't see one offered on the Apple site.

Thanks,

Dave
 
gismo said:
BTW I also got a GNS 5870 Bluetooth GPS for use in the airplane. It seems to work OK but at times it's a PITA to turn off and I think it's turned itself on a couple times when it was in my pocket.
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I ended up putting mine in its own pouch to avoid the accidental swiping of it on. Just took and old eyeglass sleeve, cut it down and added a Velcro closure.

On the swiping mechanism itself, I've noticed that it's easier to turn on than to turn off. Maybe that's intentional?
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Kent: I already ordered a wifi unit from Apple. My smart phone has GPS also, Android. Don't know how hard it would be to cancel and reorder.

Dave
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If it hasn't shipped yet, you can log into your order (direct thru the confirmation email Apple sent) and change the order.
 
I've been using Foreflight on a couple of flights and there are a few things that bugged me, I'm hoping they're user error on my part.

#1 How do you find VOR equipment checkpoints? They are normally in the AF/D.

#2 Is there an easy way to switch between the approach plate and the map view and back? It seems like it takes way too many taps on the screen to accomplish this and it's rather distracting when you just wanted to check on quick thing on the enroute then flop back to the approach plate.
 
jesse said:
I've been using Foreflight on a couple of flights and there are a few things that bugged me, I'm hoping they're user error on my part.
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They're not.

#1 How do you find VOR equipment checkpoints? They are normally in the AF/D.
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ForeFlight doesn't contain a true AFD, so no VOTs. Right now, I also get the $20 annual SkyCharts Pro charts which does, so if I really need somehting that's in the AFD and not the ForeFligh database...

#2 Is there an easy way to switch between the approach plate and the map view and back? It seems like it takes way too many taps
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It's really only two in each direction once you are in the approach environment and have selected the approach you are going to use. And I guess that even with paper, many pilots will put the enroute chart aside completely once in range on the approach anyway.

But I agree - being able to do a 1-tap back and forth between the en route and approach chart would be a good feature and a number of people (including me) have mentioned it to the developers.
 
At SIMCOM this year, several folks were comparing notes and one thing that arose was the lack of a full A/FD. A lot of information that is in the A/FD is in the program, but not all. For instance, we did see a right traffic notation on one airport, but not all the airport info.

We also noticed on STARS, the graphic procedure was there, but not the written one that follows. That is, for a standard arrival like the FNGR3 into Addison, after SLANT one must go to the written instructions to know what to do from there. If landing one direction, one receives RADAR vectors, if the other direction, one is to turn to a heading for vectors from there. Those instructions weren't in the program. Little stuff, but it's necessary and I'm sure will be addressed.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
At SIMCOM this year, several folks were comparing notes and one thing that arose was the lack of a full A/FD. A lot of information that is in the A/FD is in the program, but not all. For instance, we did see a right traffic notation on one airport, but not all the airport info.
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But, so far, the best AFD solution seems to be to download the applicable AFDs from nacomatic or pdfplates and move them into Goodreader (or whatever file maneger/reader you like). That way you even get the supplemental material like VOT tests and preferred routing.

We also noticed on STARS, the graphic procedure was there, but not the written one that follows.
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That I haven't seen. All the SIDs and STARs I've looked at with continuation pages have had both the graphic page and the text page - including the FINGR3 that you refer to. A small potential issue is that the plates are in separate files rather than being reformatted into two pages of a single file, which would be a nice feature.
 
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Thanks Mark. Several folks looked when I was in Orlando and couldn't find the continuation page. When I get it loaded up, I'll browse. It would be nice to have the entire STAR as one file.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Thanks. What did y'all do for a screen protector? I didn't see one offered on the Apple site.
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Dave,

You really don't need a screen protector. The screens are amazingly durable - Mine's a year old, not a scratch on it and it's taken some abuse (it lived the first part of its life in a truck, after all).

They are available, but the ones I've seen make the feel of the touchscreen weird... Too much friction. I would suggest you start without one, and then if you feel you need it, see if you can try them on someone else's iPad first.
 
jesse said:
#1 How do you find VOR equipment checkpoints? They are normally in the AF/D.
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And that's where they still are... Note that the A/FD data for navaids is missing too. Hopefully it'll be added at some point.

I would suggest downloading GoodReader and adding things like the front of the A/FD and approach plate books, and some of the other FAA publications that are available as free PDF's online. Maybe I'll come up with a zip file that contains a complete package.

#2 Is there an easy way to switch between the approach plate and the map view and back? It seems like it takes way too many taps on the screen to accomplish this and it's rather distracting when you just wanted to check on quick thing on the enroute then flop back to the approach plate.
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Agreed. I've lodged the same complaint, and I'll note that FF is very good at responding to such input and is continuously being improved - I usually have the beta for the next version before the "current" version is even approved in the app store... So I'm sure both of these issues will be addressed.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Thanks Mark. Several folks looked when I was in Orlando and couldn't find the continuation page. When I get it loaded up, I'll browse. It would be nice to have the entire STAR as one file.
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Dave,

I think in the current version (3.9) of ForeFlight, if you have STAR called FNGR3, the continuation page is called FNGR3.1. The procedures are all there.
 
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