FA discovered packing

[dmccormack]

Re: Fun with numbers

Any stats on firearm safety training and the impact on firearm injuries and fatalities?

Like MSF motorcycle training for beginners and experienced rides, I'd expect to see some improvement in injury and fatality rates for firearms for owners that have the basic safety training and follow at least some basics (like always leave the firearm unloaded until you are ready to use it).

Firearm safety training is fine, and should be sought by any responsible gun owner.

The problem comes when the state mandates certain training courses -- this can place an undue burden on people with low incomes, weird schedules, or no access to a training site.

Of course some states have training requirements -- fine.

But at least the pendulum has swung away from the "If you're rich and connected you can own, otherwise sorry, charlie" approach the norm in the 1970s.

 

[weilke]

Re: Fun with numbers

Any stats on firearm safety training and the impact on firearm injuries and fatalities?

Like MSF motorcycle training for beginners and experienced rides, I'd expect to see some improvement in injury and fatality rates for firearms for owners that have the basic safety training and follow at least some basics (like always leave the firearm unloaded until you are ready to use it).

I am not aware of good datat on that. It is one of those things that 'would make sense', but unless someone can show data, I wouldn't bank on it.

One anecdotal observation: The Brady campaign has a list of the concealed carry permit holders who have committed crimes using firearms (this is based on press accounts as most states with CCW permits dont record or report that data) . After you cut through the hyperbole, unfair reporting (listing cases ruled as justified self-defense as 'killings') and mass-murderers included in the tally there is still a sobering picture of CCW holders 'losing it' and killing their neighbors or other motorists in disputes. When I went through their list, I noticed a large number Florida CCW holders under the perpetrators. Florida requires very little training for issuance of a permit, some other states require a curriculum based training focussed on justifiable use and firearms safety. So there may well be a way to look at the influence of safety training accross states, but again you end up comparing apples and oranges (the rather homogenous population of Utah with the very diverse population of FL for example).

Another observation: Maryland requires any purchaser of a handgun to do a 1/2hr online training course. Firearms mortality in MD is rank #21 pretty much in the middle of the field.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Re: Fun with numbers

I am not aware of good datat on that. It is one of those things that 'would make sense', but unless someone can show data, I wouldn't bank on it.

One anecdotal observation: The Brady campaign has a list of the concealed carry permit holders who have committed crimes using firearms (this is based on press accounts as most states with CCW permits dont record or report that data) . After you cut through the hyperbole, unfair reporting (listing cases ruled as justified self-defense as 'killings') and mass-murderers included in the tally there is still a sobering picture of CCW holders 'losing it' and killing their neighbors or other motorists in disputes. When I went through their list, I noticed a large number Florida CCW holders under the perpetrators. Florida does not require formal training for issuance of a permit, most other states require training focussed on justifiable use and firearms safety, some even require live-fire training on the range. So there may well be a way to look at the influence of safety training accross states, but again you end up comparing apples and oranges (the rather homogenous population of Utah with the very diverse population of FL for example).

If memory serves, Florida does, or at least did, give permits to anyone, regardless of whether or not they lived in Florida, or had any connection to it. So, if my recollection is correct, that might explain why you saw so many FL permits.

 

[weilke]

Re: Fun with numbers

If memory serves, Florida does, or at least did, give permits to anyone, regardless of whether or not they lived in Florida, or had any connection to it. So, if my recollection is correct, that might explain why you saw so many FL permits.

FL and UT issue a lot of 'non-resident' permits, mostly because they both hand them out like coupons from 'Bed Bath and Beyond'. A lot of states recognize those nonresident permits in some cases even if carried by their own citizens. There are a couple of other states that issue nonresident permits, but they require you to physically show up at a courthouse or sheriffs office to apply which in this McDonals world makes them less attractive.

Most of the cases I recall from list actually happend in FL.

 

[jesse]

Re: Fun with numbers

FL and UT issue a lot of 'non-resident' permits, mostly because they both hand them out like coupons from 'Bed Bath and Beyond'..

Thats not quite fair. I have a Urah permit and had to take an all day course from a Utah certified instructor, qualify with my pistol, and get finger printed by state patrol. All that paperwork and more was submitted to Utah and it took about 3 months to be approved which involved a FBI background check and the catalogging of my prints. I suspect that getting a coupon at bed bath and beyond is less involved.

 

[weilke]

Re: Fun with numbers

Thats not quite fair. I have a Urah permit and had to take an all day course from a Utah certified instructor, qualify with my pistol, and get finger printed by state patrol. All that paperwork and more was submitted to Utah and it took about 3 months to be approved which involved a FBI background check and the catalogging of my prints. I suspect that getting a coupon at bed bath and beyond is less involved.

The Utah requirements may have changed. These days it's
- a 4hr minimum class,
- no live-fire or qualification required,
- the fingerprints can be taken by a trained tech who doesn't have to be a LEO.

The permit has to be issued within 60 days.

All this (often including passport picture and fingerprints) is usally offered in a saturday morning course at places like Cabelas. Compared with the process in other states that is a rather unbuerocratic proceeding.

 

[Clark1961]

Re: Fun with numbers

The Utah requirements may have changed. These days it's
- a 4hr minimum class,
- no live-fire or qualification required,
- the fingerprints can be taken by a trained tech who doesn't have to be a LEO.

The permit has to be issued within 60 days.

All this (often including passport picture and fingerprints) is usally offered in a saturday morning course at places like Cabelas. Compared with the process in other states that is a rather unbuerocratic proceeding.

Is "unbuerocratic" [sic] such a bad thing?. Utah does their homework on applicants. The 60 day thing may force the issue for a little while but they reserve the right to revoke if they find out the story has changed or was not as originally reported. And Utah is much more strict on Alcohol offenses and issuing CWP than some states. If you get a Utah permit then you haven't had an alcohol offense in the past ten years.

 

[weilke]

Re: Fun with numbers

Is "unbuerocratic" [sic] such a bad thing?

It can, if it puts important steps of identity verification for the applicants into the hands of a private party who is beyond the jurisdiction of UT state law at the time he exercises those powers (iow once you are a UT instructor you can submit mikey-mouses fingerprints for an applicant if that applicant has reason not to submit his own). So yes, a more 'buerocratic' process that actually requires you to appear in front of a law enforcement officer to give your fingerprints has less potential for abuse.

 

[Clark1961]

Re: Fun with numbers

It can, if it puts important steps of identity verification for the applicants into the hands of a private party who is beyond the jurisdiction of UT state law at the time he exercises those powers (iow once you are a UT instructor you can submit mikey-mouses fingerprints for an applicant if that applicant has reason not to submit his own). So yes, a more 'buerocratic' process that actually requires you to appear in front of a law enforcement officer to give your fingerprints has less potential for abuse.

Do you have some basis in fact for your opinion that any random LEO has more integrity than any random UT CCW instructor? Have you even reviewed the requirements to become a UT CCW instructor?

Do you know even if and/or how the fingerprints are used in background checks by any CCW permit process?

 

[weilke]

Re: Fun with numbers

Do you have some basis in fact for your opinion that any random LEO has more integrity than any random UT CCW instructor? Have you even reviewed the requirements to become a UT CCW instructor?

If I go to the local sheriffs office to have my fingerprints taken, the officer who does so is subject to the law of my state while doing so. He has no financial interest in printing the card and also has a nice salary, a Cigna PPO health plan and early retirement to loose if he is caught taking a bribe, not to mention the possibility of going to jail. The worst thing that could happen to a UT CCW instructor if some irregularities regarding the ID requirements come up is that DPS could yank his instructors cert.

It is my educated opinion that there is a difference between the two.

 

[denverpilot]

Who the heck cares? I would much rather live in CO than IL any day.

Amen to that!

 

[dmccormack]

Re: Fun with numbers

Do you know even if and/or how the fingerprints are used in background checks by any CCW permit process?

I do.

 

[denverpilot]

Re: Fun with numbers

When I went through their list, I noticed a large number Florida CCW holders under the perpetrators.

Did it give the ages of the people? I'm curious because I'm wondering if it's more a sign that as you age, since Florida's population is heavy on retirees, that some folks you get a lot less tolerant of others.

Is the statistic really more about the oldest Baby Boomers now effectively yelling "Get off my lawn!" with a handgun in Florida, or about the training given them?

I could definitely see the possibility of a wave of "I've had enough of listening to you" non-accidental deaths by aging gun owners, as the wave of Boomers passes 60 and heads for 70.

Just like it's really hard to convince SOME older pilots that it's time to hang up the keys to the car or airplane, it's going to be REALLY hard to tell some gun owners that it's time they bequeath the gun collection to kids and grandkids and stop carrying...

And now you have me imagining Public Service Announcements for Florida radio and TV. LOL!

"Do you have a loved one who won't stop packing?"

 

[Clark1961]

Re: Fun with numbers

If I go to the local sheriffs office to have my fingerprints taken, the officer who does so is subject to the law of my state while doing so. He has no financial interest in printing the card and also has a nice salary, a Cigna PPO health plan and early retirement to loose if he is caught taking a bribe, not to mention the possibility of going to jail. The worst thing that could happen to a UT CCW instructor if some irregularities regarding the ID requirements come up is that DPS could yank his instructors cert.

It is my educated opinion that there is a difference between the two.

A simple "no" would have sufficed. Note that I addressed integrity, not circumstances.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Re: Fun with numbers

...
Do you know even if and/or how the fingerprints are used in background checks by any CCW permit process?

Can't speak to the "if," but as to the "how," fingerprint-based background checks are fairly complex and fairly common.

First, you get your fingerprints taken, which usually has to be done by someone certified in it.

Second, the state bureau (the state police, bureau of investigation, etc.) will give them to the fingerprint department, who will then see if they match (a) known criminals or (b) crimes still under investigation.

Third, they'll go to the FBI facility in West Virginia, where the same thing will be done on a national basis.

Fourth, even if your record comes back clean, the gov't now has your fingerprints on file, so if you commit a crime and leave some fingerprints....

Anyway, the whole process takes a pretty long time. The last time I had to request one I think it was at least 3-4 months before the report came back. It's also fairly expensive (around $60 between State and Feds, not to mention the cost of getting the prints taken down at the PD).

 

[denverpilot]

Re: Fun with numbers

Anyway, the whole process takes a pretty long time. The last time I had to request one I think it was at least 3-4 months before the report came back. It's also fairly expensive (around $60 between State and Feds, not to mention the cost of getting the prints taken down at the PD).

Depends on where you go and what gear they have. Last time I had it done, it was a digital capture machine, and it took longer to get the news to the agency via "official" means (about a week - probably because e-mail isn't secure between them and FBI so it had to be mailed via snail mail) than it took for NCIC and FBI to clear (an almost instant "ok" with a one-day turn-around from the FBI).

As far as the price, various volunteer and job roles get it done for free or close to it. I payed $25 for the above at the County Sheriff's office to have a new one done for CAP a couple of years ago.

Only gotcha was they had limited hours of operation for the machine and operator and due to "smudging" it can take 10-20 minutes longer that ink-based fingerprinting if the tech can't get you to relax your fingers and let them do the movement.

I found that looking away so I didn't know when he was going to roll my little piggies, made it all work out.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Re: Fun with numbers

Depends on where you go and what gear they have. Last time I had it done, it was a digital capture machine, and it took longer to get the news to the agency via "official" means (about a week - probably because e-mail isn't secure between them and FBI so it had to be mailed via snail mail) than it took for NCIC and FBI to clear (an almost instant "ok" with a one-day turn-around from the FBI).

As far as the price, various volunteer and job roles get it done for free or close to it. I payed $25 for the above at the County Sheriff's office to have a new one done for CAP a couple of years ago.

Only gotcha was they had limited hours of operation for the machine and operator and due to "smudging" it can take 10-20 minutes longer that ink-based fingerprinting if the tech can't get you to relax your fingers and let them do the movement.

I found that looking away so I didn't know when he was going to roll my little piggies, made it all work out.

Last time I did it was in Idaho Springs. They don't have that new-fangled stuff. The rules seems to be that "if it didn't exist in 1859, you can't have it in 2009." No idea how they get away with horseless carriages.