Exposing loved ones to the risks associated with GA

CC268

CC268

Final Approach
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CC268
I am sure this conversation will stir up all sorts of gnashing of teeth, but I still <3 PoA.

Recently I have been flying by myself since I get up at the crack of dawn to fly before it gets hot. I have to admit some of the recent aircraft crashes I've seen (engaged couple in Big Bear, Bonanza in Utah, one of my own friends here at KDVT that just had a horrific crash with a friend on board) has had me thinking about the inherent risks of taking loved ones up. Reality is that GA has its risks and is many times more dangerous than driving (even though there are a ton of people who die every day in car wrecks). Sometimes I wonder if it is responsible to put others in harms way like that. It's like calling up your friend and saying, "hey man wanna come fly with me? It's about 10x riskier than driving, but we will likely beat the odds this time and not end up in a fiery ball of aluminum. You down?" Maybe I'm exaggerating but you get the point.

How do you guys handle the possible risk and responsibility of taking your own loved ones up (kids, friends, wife, etc)? Do you ever feel guilty about the risk you might be exposing them to?
 
CC268 said:
Do you ever feel guilty about the risk you might be exposing them to?
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No.

Do a proper preflight, W&B, maintain your aircraft to a high standard. Get current weather, do not over step your limitations.

As the video that denverpilot posted today 85% of accidents are caused by pilots
 
ChrisK said:
I ask people if they are comfortable riding on a motorcycle.
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I grew up racing motocross and I've been around street bikes my whole life. My dad rides one to work all the time. Personally you wouldn't catch me on one in the Phoenix area. I've had 3 friends killed on street bikes here in AZ (one of them was being stupid on the bike, the other two were minding their own business).
 
CC268 said:
Do you ever feel guilty about the risk you might be exposing them to?
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No.

I fly people for a living, usually in an area where a little mistake may become a big problem.

I worry about the number of drunk drivers I will see as I drive to the airport.
 
AKBill said:
No.

Do a proper preflight, W&B, maintain your aircraft to a high standard. Get current weather, do not over step your limitations.

As the video that denverpilot posted today 85% of accidents are caused by pilots
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Thanks for the response.
 
ChrisK said:
I ask people if they are comfortable riding on a motorcycle.
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Exactly how I got into flying. My wife and I have been together since Buck was a calf, and shortly after we were married, in the spring of that year I got the itch of wanting to get back into riding as we did back in our school days. Well, when I mentioned it to her as she looked at our first born, she quickly vetoed that and said find something else... and the rest, as they say...

Have been flying as a family ever since.
 
These topics alway crack me up!

Do you ask your fat friends if they are ok with the risk before you hand them a burger off the BBQ, or give them a Coke or beer?


I've kinda come to a conclusion, GA is considerably SAFER than driving HOWEVER it is MUCH less FORGIVING OF SCREWUPS. The little "oopse" your wife has driving her car, well usually it's ding and maybe a call to AAA, that same level of F' up gets you all killed in a plane. That said, you are not shoulder to shoulder with these mouth breathing drivers, you have much more room in cruise to maneuver, less likely to be accosted by militarized police or road ragers, less "stuff" to hit up there etc.

If you keep you and your plane in good shape, stay AHEAD of the plane and use common sense, you'll find GA quite safe.
 
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James331 said:
These topics alway cracks me up!

Do you ask your fat friends if they are ok with the risk before you hand them a burger off the BBQ, or give them a Coke or beer?
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Idk I don't have any fat friends...seriously though it's an honest question. GA is relatively risky compared to drinking a beer or driving. Not talking about flying an ultra reliable turbine

Edit: I see your edited response - fair enough! Thanks for the response
 
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My flying has been shaped somewhat by the death of friends in a crash.

What did I take away from it?

An EFATO in a twin can be a hard master, and you had best be prepared.
 
I struggle with it. But mostly with my children. If you're over 18 we can have a conversation and you can ask me questions but generally when I fly my kids somewhere it's me and mom wanting to go somewhere and taking them with us. If something were to happen..

That's the part I struggle with.
 
Pay attention to the causes of all the accidents you see posted on here. Ask yourself how many are comparable to any situation you'd find yourself in.

Don't screw around with weather and don't screw around with sketchy terrain and you've cut your odds of a fatal accident to something much lower than riding a motorcycle. The last thing that's going to kill you is an engine out (90% survival rate) or other mechanical issue. If something goes wrong, it'll usually be because you took a risk you didn't need to or did something stupid. Do a weight and balance and make sure you've got fuel. These are really easy things but there are enough stupid people out there that the stats will always be what they are.
 
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I'm not trying to be argumentative or combative here I'm just seriously asking the question. Where did you get the 97% statistic? I've been following Ron's statistics on this board for a while and it seems far lower than that. Again not trying to argue and I feel the need to clarify that multiple times since this is poa
 
I don't worry about it because I care about my own hide as much as anyone else's and as such, I do all I can to minimize risk. Lots of training, maintain the equipment as if your life depends on it, don't push the limits and fly conservatively. Risk is a spectrum and I see a lot of terrible drivers on our roads that obviously subject their passengers to more risk than I do in my plane.
 
Everything we do involves risk. Much of it involves people who are unaware of the risks but blindly trust us to keep them safe. People die every day in cars...yet we still load up the kids to go to soccer games or the grocery store without a second thought. Maybe the risk is less, but the exposure to risk is a LOT higher.

I think the real difference is that we've convinced ourselves that driving is somehow necessary for survival, so it's a necessary risk, but flying is optional.

FWIW, I recently had an old friend of the family die in an airplane accident, as did one of his passengers. Funeral tomorrow morning at the airport, fly-in breakfast to follow. As it should be.
 
The vast majority of GA accidents happen because the pilot did something that was bonehead stupid. Flying over gross, running out of fuel, VFR into IMC, severe weather, showboating, etc. If you're making a flight-related decision, ask "how would this read in the NTSB report?". If the answer is 'bonehead stupid', don't do it. GA suddenly becomes a whole lot safer for you.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I'm not trying to be argumentative or combative here I'm just seriously asking the question. Where did you get the 97% statistic? I've been following Ron's statistics on this board for a while and it seems far lower than that. Again not trying to argue and I feel the need to clarify that multiple times since this is poa
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I of course can't find it now, but I'll concede to this source which says 90%. Still incredibly high and one of the least likely things to kill you.

http://caa.gov.il/index.php?option=...ding-outside-of-an-airport&Itemid=669&lang=he
 
ZeroPapaGolf said:
The vast majority of GA accidents happen because the pilot did something that was bonehead stupid. Flying over gross, running out of fuel, VFR into IMC, severe weather, showboating, etc. If you're making a flight-related decision, ask "how would this read in the NTSB report?". If the answer is 'bonehead stupid', don't do it. GA suddenly becomes a whole lot safer for you.
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This is basically it. No one wants to sound arrogant and yes, anything can happen, but 70-80% of GA accidents happen due to things pilots can make the decision right now to readily avoid. Want to up your odds by almost 50%? Simply fly when it's nice out. Want to up them even more? Do a freaking W&B every flight. Avoid mountainous terrain and flying over cold water. If you don't live in Alaska, you've already improved your survival odds without even realizing it.

None of this takes super-human skill nor is it arrogance to think you can avoid those situations. Just be conservative and GA becomes markedly safer.
 
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During 90% of my flight, my fate is in my hands, and mine alone. When driving, it's the other way around. I trust myself far more than I trust others.

GA is as safe or as dangerous as you make it. The same cannot be said about driving.
 
I used to concern myself with it a lot more than I do now. I've learned a lot in the past several years and I do my best to keep myself proficient and competent in the airplanes I fly. There is no doubt that flying in light aircraft poses a risk, but I don't view it as inherently more risky than other activities.

Having recent mishaps in my flying club makes me think about the risks even more.
 
The GA vs. road fatility statistic is based on US road stats. However there are plenty of countries that are closer to GA per mile statistics that people who think GA is too dangerous would still drive in.

E.g. I've driven in South Africa, India, Saudi Arabia and the Philippines - all of them have vehicle fatalities that are over 10 times worse than the U.S. and puts them in GA territory. And I've had my loved ones in the car as well.

Do you really want to be that sheltered that you can't even drive with your loved ones in other countries? If you have an opportunity to go a Safari in Africa are you saying to them: "Sorry you can't come with - the roads are too dangerous". Good luck with that...
 
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Thanks for all the replies.
 
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CC268 said:
Engine outs have a 97% survival rate?
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90% is what I found and I think that statistic is low given how many engine outs we know occur per year (plus even more not reported).
 
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ZeroPapaGolf said:
The vast majority of GA accidents happen because the pilot did something that was bonehead stupid. Flying over gross, running out of fuel, VFR into IMC, severe weather, showboating, etc. If you're making a flight-related decision, ask "how would this read in the NTSB report?". If the answer is 'bonehead stupid', don't do it. GA suddenly becomes a whole lot safer for you.
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I don't think flying over gross really is a killer in aviation. When you think how often it happens (all the time, in reality), there are only a few cases where it has been the primary cause of a crash.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
@wanttaja, I was thinking your statistics showed that it was lower than 50%.

Yeah maybe I misunderstood along the way. And again I'm not trying to argue with anyone I'm just trying to figure out what a realistic number is.
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There's noway that's right. There's an average of 2 engine outs per day in general aviation and that's just the ones that are reported.

If the survival rate in those situations was lower than 50%, there'd been a ton more fatal accidents per year. Like more fatals from engine outs than all other fatals combined.
 
Seems like there are a lot of engine failures...don't know the numbers specifically but it seems like something that is likely to happen if you fly for many years
 
A controlled crash is far more likely to be survivable than one that's uncontrolled. The engine failure in of itself typically does not cause a fatal outcome, it's usually the events the pilot does after it occurs.
 
I read NTSB reports all the time. I do it solely to see where mistakes are made and what the repercussions are. I don't have exact numbers, but reading reports it seems that it is something the pilot did, or the failure to do something to counter something gone wrong with the plane.
 
Bonchie said:
There's noway that's right. There's an average of 2 engine outs per day in general aviation and that's just the ones that are reported.

If the survival rate in those situations was lower than 50%, there'd been a ton more fatal accidents per year. Like more fatals from engine outs than all other fatals combined.
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I may be totally wrong. I'm just trying to recall a statistic that Ron had posted where he was juxtaposing engine outs in other aircraft versus engine outs in the Cirrus and I felt like the statistic for non BRS equipped aircraft was surprisingly low. But my memory is ****y
 
CC268 said:
Seems like there are a lot of engine failures...don't know the numbers specifically but it seems like something that is likely to happen if you fly for many years
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I thought the piston engine failure rate was something like once every 25000 flight hours or something like that. So it's extremely unlikely to happen to an average GA pilot.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I may be totally wrong. I'm just trying to recall a statistic that Ron had posted where he was juxtaposing engine outs in other aircraft versus engine outs in the Cirrus and I felt like the statistic for non BRS equipped aircraft was surprisingly low. But my memory is ****y
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Maybe he'll chime in.

There's this thread: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/accident-rates-for-common-ga-aircraft.103339/

But it's about total fatality rates for airframes.
 
I think about this alot, I am not a pro pilot by any means, more of a dumb farmer with a PPL and an airplane. I might think more about than someone who flies a few hundred hours a year. I only get about 15 hours or so in a year, mostly a few 1hr joyrides and a longerish trip once or twice a year.

I think about the people I ask to ride along, mostly friends, and I can't help but in the back of my mind think about the number of children they have, how likely the friends wife would sue my wife, etc. Stuff like that scares me.

Here are the reasons I continue to have friends fly with me:
I am confident in my flying even though I don't get as many hours in as alot of people, I continue to educate myself constantly on the subject of flying, I live and fly out in the boondocks of North Dakota(lots of open land for a forced landing), my instructor drilled into my head emergency procedures probably more than anything, I don't fly when the whether is crappy(We always have wind here and I am pretty competent in that but if there potential for thunderstorms. low clouds or high winds forecasted I don't fly).

I know where the original poster is coming from but you just have to take stock of whether you are confident enough to take people up with you or not, and if not simply don't take people up with you.
 
If I was only flying 15 hours a year, I wouldn't feel safe for just myself.
 
Bonchie said:
There's noway that's right. There's an average of 2 engine outs per day in general aviation and that's just the ones that are reported.

If the survival rate in those situations was lower than 50%, there'd been a ton more fatal accidents per year. Like more fatals from engine outs than all other fatals combined.
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He was getting real life confused with cirrus marketing. Don't be to hard on him
 
It's a valid question that I asked every time I flew my family anywhere.

Now that the kids are grown up, I no longer face that stark question every few days, but for 20 years it haunted me on every flight. Somewhere in the back of my mind, the question of "Is this worth it?" was always bouncing around, as I strapped the kids in. The answer was always "Yes", obviously, and my family enjoyed GA to the fullest.

Nowadays, it's just Mary and me flying, and since we are both pilots we are both well aware of the risk/reward equation. I must confess that the death of Vlado Lenoch last month really rattled me for a day or two. When a man of his talent and hours crashes, it's always time to pause and ponder what chance we hobby pilots really have?

Then, common sense rears its ugly head, and we start to tick off the things that matter. No, we're not flying a 75 year old antique war plane. No, we're not doing high-G aerobatics. Yes, our maintenance is the best money can buy, and is continually checked by yours truly. Eventually, we are able to tamp down that voice of doubt, and fly again.

But that voice is always in the back of your mind, somewhere. It's what keeps us safe, IMHO.
 
TommyG said:
I read NTSB reports all the time. I do it solely to see where mistakes are made and what the repercussions are. I don't have exact numbers, but reading reports it seems that it is something the pilot did, or the failure to do something to counter something gone wrong with the plane.
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No doubt about it a big majority of accidents are very preventable
 
Jay Honeck said:
It's a valid question that I asked every time I flew my family anywhere.

Now that the kids are grown up, I no longer face that stark question every few days, but for 20 years it haunted me on every flight. Somewhere in the back of my mind, the question of "Is this worth it?" was always bouncing around, as I strapped the kids in. The answer was always "Yes", obviously, and my family enjoyed GA to the fullest.

Nowadays, it's just Mary and me flying, and since we are both pilots we are both well aware of the risk/reward equation. I must confess that the death of Vlado Lenoch last month really rattled me for a day or two. When a man of his talent and hours crashes, it's always time to pause and ponder what chance we hobby pilots really have?

Then, common sense rears its ugly head, and we start to tick off the things that matter. No, we're not flying a 75 year old antique war plane. No, we're not doing high-G aerobatics. Yes, our maintenance is the best money can buy, and is continually checked by yours truly. Eventually, we are able to tamp down that voice of doubt, and fly again.

But that voice is always in the back of your mind, somewhere. It's what keeps us safe, IMHO.
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Thanks for the response...maybe the best one yet as I identify with it in every way for the most part.
 
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