Expired Sectionals

Maxmosbey

Maxmosbey

Final Approach
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I need to get serious.
I loaned a student pilot a Chicago sectional, and he promptly informed me that it was expired. Evidently, he couldn't find a current one anywhere, and he seemed to think that he needed a current one to be legal. I realize that for a student pilot, who is on one of his first cross countries, or taking a check ride, that a current sectional is a big deal. Otherwise, how big of a deal is it, in the real world? Frankly, if it is, I have five expired sectionals that I need to replace. Not to mention, I have to draw all of those course lines again.
 
My understanding is that the FARs won't allow you to use them after they expire.

I am not sure about the scenario where you have a current, legal one in your plane for a possible ramp check and the sectional you want to use "just" expired. You might be able to use it at your risk - but I think the FARs dictate only using a current sectional.

Just for safety's sake you are better off using a current one, regardless of the FARs.

ps. they are good for wrapping paper.
 
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when the FAA comes looking the burden of proof you are in compliance with 91,103 is yours.

How would you prove there is no new information on the new sectional with out one to compare?
 
FARs require that you have all current info for the route of flight. Expired sectional would not be considered current, unless you could show that you had documented all the updates that go in the back of the AF/D every 56 days and any notams for chart changes. lots of stuff does change. mostly stuff like new cell phone towers. but frequencies and airspace also change and its good to keep on top of that stuff. that said, if i was going flying and it was either fly without a sectional or with an expired sectional then id take the expired one. but if youve got sectionals available to update your collection then you should do it.

ps there is a nice collection of yardsticks in the back of the shop that will make drawing your new course lines very easy.
 
Sectional is not even strictly required, but if you do have to follow 91,103. Which if memory serves is you must have all required information about the path of flight.

I could see an expired sectional being a problem if you don't have other documents that are current that fulfill the same requirements
 
No FAR I've ever found specifically addresses sectionals. I think the arguement revolves around the requirement to have all necessary information for the flight. With the expired section how do you know nothing has changed? I don't think it is a bust for local flight.

A story though. A friend, retired airline captain used a unused but seriously out of date sectional going into Flagstaff early on a Sunday morning. When the tower didn't answer, he assumed they weren't open yet, landed, did his business, and took off again. When he got back to Denver there was a message from the FAA. Turns out the tower frequency had changes a couple years back.
 
I tend to agree with you Tony. I personally am less concerned about the legality than I am about changes. The recent change to the Washington ADIZ underscores that. I keep my charts current.
 
Nearly 10 years after the FSS closed and the tower opened at SBY, we still get one or two folks a year entering the pattern while making position reports on 122.95 as the tower crew tries to get everyone else out of their way.

The discussion above fairly states the FAA's position on this -- there's no reg specifically requiring current sectionals, but if anything goes wrong, they will burn you on a 91.103 violation, and possibly a 91.13 "careless" charge as well. Further, if you get ramp checked, the Inspector's checklist specifically calls for checking for current charts, and if you don't have them, a "Stump the Chump" Q&A session covering data on your flight path readily available from a current sectional is likely to ensue. If you have a photographic memory and can quote all the terrain/obstruction, airport, special use airspace and frequency data from memory, mighty fine. If not, the Inspector will eventually find questions that will leave you stumped, and that makes you the FAA's chump. $7 every six months for a current sectional seems a low price for "chump insurance."
 
i never got asked for a sectional when i was ramp checked. it was after a local flight with a student. perhaps they dont require that you have them for a local flight? how do they know?
 
tonycondon said:
i never got asked for a sectional when i was ramp checked. it was after a local flight with a student. perhaps they dont require that you have them for a local flight? how do they know?
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That was going to be my next question. Could that FAR apply if you are just up flying around the neighborhood? I am hypothetical here, because I'm going to update my sectionals, especially the ones that I actually use, but suppose you are flying to the practice area to do some turns or stalls. Would you be required to have a current sectional along for such a flight?

As far as the course lines, it would be a lot easier to draw them with two sectionals, than it was when I just had one, and I had to use a piece of paper to transfer the course line from one side of the sectional to the other. Especially considering that every flight I make to the North, takes me to the other side of the sectional. I believe that at one time during my marathon BFR, you mentioned that was a good use for them.
 
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Maxmosbey said:
That was going to be my next question. Could that FAR apply if you are just up flying around the neighborhood? I am hypothetical here, because I'm going to update my sectionals, especially the ones that I actually use, but suppose you are flying to the practice area to do some turns or stalls. Would you be required to have a current sectional along for such a flight?

As far as the course lines, it would be a lot easier to draw them with two sectionals, than it was when I just had one, and I had to use a piece of paper to transfer the course line from one side of the sectional to the other. Especially considering that every flight I make to the North, takes me to the other side of the sectional. I believe that at one time during my marathon BFR, you mentioned that was a good use for them.
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$7.95 three times a year? If you won't do that, get out of aviation. You can do it with an old one, but then the FSDO guy is playing stump the chump with you, and YOU'RE are the chump. 91.103!
 
Ron Levy said:
The discussion above fairly states the FAA's position on this -- there's no reg specifically requiring current sectionals, but if anything goes wrong, they will burn you on a 91.103 violation, and possibly a 91.13 "careless" charge as well. Further, if you get ramp checked, the Inspector's checklist specifically calls for checking for current charts, and if you don't have them, a "Stump the Chump" Q&A session covering data on your flight path readily available from a current sectional is likely to ensue. If you have a photographic memory and can quote all the terrain/obstruction, airport, special use airspace and frequency data from memory, mighty fine. If not, the Inspector will eventually find questions that will leave you stumped, and that makes you the FAA's chump. $7 every six months for a current sectional seems a low price for "chump insurance."
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So, flying with current charts would seem - we'll say - prudent, for a number of reasons.

What about a current AFD for its Aeronautical Chart Bulletin?
 
tonycondon said:
i never got asked for a sectional when i was ramp checked. it was after a local flight with a student. perhaps they dont require that you have them for a local flight? how do they know?
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They watch, and they ask. And even for a "local" flight, what's your plan if someone prangs in the middle of the runway intersection, closing the airport for the next four hours (I've seen it happen)? In any event, I have seen students get lost coming back from the practice area. For those reasons, when I was a university aviation program director, our students were required to have a current sectional and A/FD with them on every flight, even their first solo.
 
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JoeSelch said:
What about a current AFD for its Aeronautical Chart Bulletin?
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I carry one on every flight, and not only for the Chart Bulletin data. Will the FAA ask you about it? Probably not on a ramp check, but it is on the Applicant's Checklist in all the PTS's.
 
bbchien said:
$7.95 three times a year? If you won't do that, get out of aviation. You can do it with an old one, but then the FSDO guy is playing stump the chump with you, and YOU'RE are the chump. 91.103!
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I have the $7.95, and I intend to run right out and get brand new Chicago sectional before I fly again. I'm just asking. If I knew all of the answers, I wouldn't be asking. So this is just for the sake of discussion.

91.103

Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. This information must include—
(a) For a flight under IFR or a flight not in the vicinity of an airport, weather reports and forecasts, fuel requirements, alternatives available if the planned flight cannot be completed, and any known traffic delays of which the pilot in command has been advised by ATC;
(b) For any flight, runway lengths at airports of intended use, and the following takeoff and landing distance information:
(1) For civil aircraft for which an approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual containing takeoff and landing distance data is required, the takeoff and landing distance data contained therein; and
(2) For civil aircraft other than those specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section, other reliable information appropriate to the aircraft, relating to aircraft performance under expected values of airport elevation and runway slope, aircraft gross weight, and wind and temperature.
 
All of you who are going to go out and update your sectionals as a result of this thread, PLEASE save the expired ones for us to provide to the Girl Scouts at the next Aviation Badge Day!
 
Maxmosbey said:
91.103

Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. This information must include—
(a) For a flight under IFR or a flight not in the vicinity of an airport, weather reports and forecasts, fuel requirements, alternatives available if the planned flight cannot be completed, and any known traffic delays of which the pilot in command has been advised by ATC;
(b) For any flight, runway lengths at airports of intended use, and the following takeoff and landing distance information:
(1) For civil aircraft for which an approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual containing takeoff and landing distance data is required, the takeoff and landing distance data contained therein; and
(2) For civil aircraft other than those specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section, other reliable information appropriate to the aircraft, relating to aircraft performance under expected values of airport elevation and runway slope, aircraft gross weight, and wind and temperature.
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And while I always use current charts, I'm going to play Devil's advocate here and say that a strict interpretation of this doesn't require me to have a current sectional. I can "become familiar with" all those details, as it pertains to THIS flight, without having a current sectional. There are other sources.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
And while I always use current charts, I'm going to play Devil's advocate here and say that a strict interpretation of this doesn't require me to have a current sectional. I can "become familiar with" all those details, as it pertains to THIS flight, without having a current sectional. There are other sources.
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Like a current 496?
 
Another problem with sectionals is not only having a current one but also finding one. I almost had to cancel an XC once because the FBO ran out of the sectional I needed. Someone luckily had a spare but weather moved in and canceled it anyways. Unfortunately as an airport where most of its traffic is our college, we run out of sectionals many times but thats where finding friends comes in handy.

I personally just don't feel completely comfortable without a sectional, even if I had to deal with a recently expired one. Just like others have said, the more expired they are, the higher risk you are at finding something unexpected whether it be sectional based or possibly an unlucky ramp check.
 
For purposes of a ramp check, is a current WAC considered adequate?
 
Uh..Maybe I've missed something. But since when did sectionals have an expiration date? I've been using the same ones since my student pilot days...
 
I get the Jeppesen chart service with updates every 28 days. The Jeppesen Low Altitude Enroute Chars that come with this service cover a large area, and have the following line printed on the front:

"Meets FAA requirements for aeronautical charts"

IFR pilots are still "encouraged" to have the VFR sectionals for the area they fly to, because the enroute charts have little topographical information. But with the enroute chart, the sectional is apparently not required.
 
jesse said:
Uh..Maybe I've missed something. But since when did sectionals have an expiration date? I've been using the same ones since my student pilot days...
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Nuhuh, I made you buy some new ones for the Gastons trip. ;)
 
jesse said:
Uh..Maybe I've missed something. But since when did sectionals have an expiration date? I've been using the same ones since my student pilot days...
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What? The Sectionals I have all say in the header something like:

"This chart will become OBSOLETE FOR USE IN NAVIGATION upon publication of the next edition scheduled for DECEMBER 20, 2007"

Sounds like an expiration date to me.
 
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Thread highjack: Current VFR gps data base & expired chart?
or Current chart & out of date GPS database?

I update my 296 only every summer, my charts are always current.
 
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TangoWhiskey said:
And while I always use current charts, I'm going to play Devil's advocate here and say that a strict interpretation of this doesn't require me to have a current sectional. I can "become familiar with" all those details, as it pertains to THIS flight, without having a current sectional. There are other sources.
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That's very true. It doesn't say anything about having the info on board...:confused:
 
jpflys said:
Thread highjack: Current VFR gps data base & expired chart?
or Current chart & out of date GPS database?

I update my 296 only every summer, my charts are always current.
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GPS batteries can die. OTOH, charts can blow away. I'd go with the charts, personally.
 
I guess if you don't fold up the charts when finished with them, you'll never see the expiration date.
 
gibbons said:
Afirm.

[edit] Maybe I should have said "I think so." A WAC and an AFD will satisfy the requirement as far as I know.
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Thanks. Many moons ago, a CFI told me that was a less expensive way to stay "legal" (as WACs are revised annually).
I always carry a current sectional-although sometimes it seems like overkill.
 
Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
I get the Jeppesen chart service with updates every 28 days. The Jeppesen Low Altitude Enroute Chars that come with this service cover a large area, and have the following line printed on the front:

"Meets FAA requirements for aeronautical charts"
Click to expand...

Which brings to mind another way of having current sectionals: The Air Chart Systems atlas. $99/year gives you sectionals for half the country. (Probably not such a great deal if you live on the dividing line.) They send you update notices every 28 days which describe all the changes in the charts (similar to the notices in the AF/D).

Why does Jepp remind me of this? They use essentially the same system for their Low Altitude Enroutes. Each chart is only published once a year - every 28 days you get a new insert of "Chart Notams" which describes changes.

Regards,
Joe
 
gprellwitz said:
All of you who are going to go out and update your sectionals as a result of this thread, PLEASE save the expired ones for us to provide to the Girl Scouts at the next Aviation Badge Day!
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Grant, if you send me a snail mail address I'll make a habit of collecting my expired sectionals and sending them to you a couple times each year. I usually have quite a few--five in the local area alone.
 
SFDukie said:
Thanks. Many moons ago, a CFI told me that was a less expensive way to stay "legal" (as WACs are revised annually).
I always carry a current sectional-although sometimes it seems like overkill.
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The FAA has a few published statements around that WAC charts should not be used in lieu of sectional charts, mostly due to the 1 year versus 6 months revision cycle. FWIW, several years back, in an effort to push folks towards having sectional charts rather than relying solely on WAC charts, the FAA removed some rather critical information from WAC charts--like airport frequencies, IIRC.
 
gprellwitz said:
All of you who are going to go out and update your sectionals as a result of this thread, PLEASE save the expired ones for us to provide to the Girl Scouts at the next Aviation Badge Day!
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Greg -

Any chance of PM'ing me some details as to what you guys do for the GS Aviation Badge? My wife is a troop leader (for our 2 daughters) and I would love to introduce aviation to the girls. Is there a set program?
 
NC19143 said:
when the FAA comes looking the burden of proof you are in compliance with 91,103 is yours.

How would you prove there is no new information on the new sectional with out one to compare?
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I beleive the answer is in the NOTAM's. They list all of the changes to a sectional for a period of time. Besides changes to the current sectional I don't remeber how long they stay active but the one's for changes to the runways at PTK last year while I was in IFR training was listed for many months.
 
I hung three of my expired sectionals on the wall in my room. I have a Black colored tack for my home airport. Red tacks for airports I have only visited once. Blue tacks for airports I have been to more than once.
 
For Troy: The question is not what any specific regulation says, but what happens if the FAA start asking questions either post-accident/incident or on a ramp check. Perhaps you can memorize that much data; I can't.

For Don: There are a number of critical data items that are on Sectionals but not WAC's. IIRC, among other things, WAC's don't have CTAF's or note where there are right-hand traffic patterns.

For Jesse: Look again at the title block, especially the part in magenta that says, "This chart will become OBSOLETE FOR USE IN NAVIGATION upon publication of the next edition scheduled for MONTH DAY, YEAR."

For DBVZ: That statement on the Jepp enroute charts applies to IFR use only. There's a lot of stuff from the sectional that ain't on there, starting with terrain and obstacle data.

For Tristan: Keep on keeping Jesse safe.
 
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