What the hell do you expect.. After all , Tom and brien23 are FAA licensed A&P's /IA's... We are just ignorant pond scum...
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What the hell do you expect.. After all , Tom and brien23 are FAA licensed A&P's /IA's... We are just ignorant pond scum...
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flyingriki
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We canards have good forums and a couple news letters that keep up pretty well with issues to be aware of. Most have been worked out long ago. But we still have the few wackos that insist on changing everything and that's not good. Most of them eventually come around to reason. As far as dopes giving advice, we soon learn who knows his stuff and who to ignore so that argument fails too.....
Tom-D
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For the most part in the production built aircraft the mechanics are more aware of the rules than the EXP buyer that has not built their aircraft.
Type clubs are great at all they do, both sides of the industry, our 170 association is one of the best. The Fairchild group was also great at getting info from other members. Cessna has a club for almost every model they've built, the EXP side of the club subject has Van's, the canard sites, and any more. I feel that the attitude that makes a pilot go to the EXP side is one that leads to thinking they can do most any thing to the aircraft and no one will say any thing to them about following the rules.
all one needs to do to prove this is to simply ask this group if ADs apply to the EXP aircraft and see how many wrong answers you get.
I have picked up too many failed projects and finished them or made them safe to fly to think otherwise.
The Murphy Rebel, I finished the project for an old CDR that I knew in the Navy, after the FAA shut down the local guy who was selling finished aircraft. The owner and I finished the aircraft got it certified, the owner wrecked it, I rebuilt it again he sold it because he got scared of flying it.
The war bird kit was a gear up survivor that I rebuilt, got it flying again, by returning the aircraft landing gear to the kit blue prints. The owner tried to get current again, during taxi practice scared him self and sold the aircraft.
The fisher Celebrity, was 99% done when the owner had a stroke lost his sight and asked me to assemble the aircraft fly off the test period and sell the aircraft. The builder had short cut the plans and rather than welding the landing gear assembly he used pop rivets, which resulted in the gear failing on landing during the delivery trip. No insurance, I ended up buying the wreck, rebuilding the damage and selling it again to the same guy.
So yes I have been there and done that, and formed my opinion,
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Tom-D
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What the hell do you expect.. After all , Tom and brien23 are FAA licensed A&P's /IA's... We are just ignorant pond scum...
And didn't you just prove us right by posting that ? You can't argue on the facts, so you spin it and prove your self right.
Be arrogant, be rude, be antagonistic, prove who you are.
Tom-D
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so you are going to use the slip to do the attack?
both he and I are mechanics not word smiths.
Sounds like a preconceived notion without a sound basis.
Tom-D
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maybe, but I see what I see and form my opinions
Let me get this straight... the owner of the Fisher Celebrity had a stoke and then had you assemble the aircraft, fly off the test period and sell it...
During the assembly,,, you being a FAA licensed A&P /IA, didn't notice the "pop rivets" that held the landing gear together ??
Are you blind,, or what...
,,,,,,,,,,,
Tom-D
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Let me get this straight... the owner of the Fisher Celebrity had a stoke and then had you assemble the aircraft, fly off the test period and sell it...
During the assembly,,, you being a FAA licensed A&P /IA, didn't notice the "pop rivets" that held the landing gear together ??
Nope
Are you blind,, or what...
Nope
The fuselage was already on its gear, wheel pants and all, all I had to do was transport to the airport and put the wings on. the 3/8" paint job hides a lot.
and yes this was a big lesson about home builders.
Tom-D
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yes Fred was a great old WWII vet that built and flew some very nice aircraft.
The stroke he had effected the optic nerve center of the brain, he lost his sight over night. Ended up sticking shot gun in his mouth. very sad case. (circa 1991-2)
You do realize....
As the person who assembled the plane and test flew it, you were RESPONSIBLE for it to be in airworthy shape
.. Not the original builder who didn't finish the kit..
...And you admit the plane crashed on landing because of your negligence
.....Holy Crap.....
Tom-D
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gots to remember 2% of the home builders make 100% of the reputation.
All I see are the ones that are coming to get help and the guys across the way, who leave me with the impression that they all are experts, and the only expert on scene.
All I see are the ones that are coming to get help and the guys across the way, who leave me with the impression that they all are experts, and the only expert on scene.
Geico266
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How does Vans or Lancair know who the second or third owner is, to send them service advisories?
I thought you were the expert on all things experimental?
It is well known in the RV fleet to call or email Vans and let them know you bought an RV. Even if you didn't build it you will get all SB's and info. VAF is the source for info also. I have started 2 SBs on the RV-12 in conjunction with Vans. They listen to the customers and act when needed.
When an SB comes out is says to forward this info to the new owner (if the plane was sold) and to contact Vans and let them know you don't own it any more. Vans Aircraft is pro active.
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Tom-D
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FAA didn't have a problem with it. I made it right, so why do you worry about it?You do realize....
As the person who assembled the plane and test flew it, you were RESPONSIBLE for it to be in airworthy shape
And you admit the plane crashed on landing because of your negligence
Holy Crap.....
Now that is downright scary..... How many bottles of scotch did ya have to buy for the FAA inspector...
....And you do realize your negligence that led to the crash landing does make the experimental side of GA look bad...
So... In reality you have caused the bad eye experimentals are supposebly suffering as claimed by brien23....
......jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Seriously guys lets cool it with the attacks on all sides. Stick to the subject. Please if you don't you're just creating work and a headache of a mess for the mc to sort out which you've all ready done in this thread so far. All parties.
Tom-D
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Tom-D
Bet me, its the same where ever you. How often do you hear of the safe driver.
Deal.... I will spool down......
Tom-D
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Now that is downright scary..... How many bottles of scotch did ya have to buy for the FAA inspector...
And you do realize your negligence that led to the crash landing does make the experimental side of GA look bad...
So... In reality you have caused the bad eye experimentals are supposebly suffering as claimed by brien23....
Only in your eyes Ben. In fact I was not there when the DAR/FAA issued paper on it. Plus I was not the first pilot, it had about 50 hours on it when the hard landing happened 2 hours of which was mine.
wanttaja
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Yes, very good insight. I've been plotting fatality rate vs. speed for a number of years. Attached is the version I did for the Cherokee presentation at Arlington next year.
Another factor appears to be the general aircraft configuration...low wing vs. high wing. Note that most of the Cherokees have a higher fatality rate than the Cessna 172, for about the same speed. I believe the high-wing configuration offers better occupant protection.
And, too, notice the PA-28-161 was actually a bit lower in fatality rate than the 172. 30% of the -161's accidents were during training...tying into your comment, again.
Ron Wanttaja
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wanttaja
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Fifteen, from 1998 through 2012. 30% lower rate than the overall homebuilt fleet.
Shouldn't ask that kind of question with me around.
Ron Wanttaja
Tom-D
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With you around, that is why we ask these questions.Fifteen, from 1998 through 2012. 30% lower rate than the overall homebuilt fleet.
Shouldn't ask that kind of question with me around.
Ron Wanttaja
It's kinda like asking a IFR question ,we know who has the answer.
flyingriki
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flyingriki
+1...!
Silvaire
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Silvaire
Wow this thread could sure get your head spinning. Yes there are rules and regulations and we all have to abide by them, on all sides, but lets just say something slipped through the cracks or some guy has gone rouge or rogue or rhoshay or however you want to spell it. So the first thing you're gonna do is run down to the FSDO and yell "Hey check this out!"
Noooo, I don't think so. We should police ourselves and let sleeping dogs lie. This, I believe is where our "sport" is headed because that is what it has basically become, a sport. The general aviation "industry" is absolutely nothing like it was envisioned to be. The guys who built my airplane were completely convinced that I would be driving a flying car by now and there would be colonies on Mars but things didn't pan out that way.
Fact is, if general aviation is going to survive at all it's going to have to evolve and that means that the certificated group, or at least a part of it, is going to meld with the experimental group. So we're all going to be one small happy family in the end. The looming changes with PNC and DL medical indicate the path to the future. Get onboard.
Noooo, I don't think so. We should police ourselves and let sleeping dogs lie. This, I believe is where our "sport" is headed because that is what it has basically become, a sport. The general aviation "industry" is absolutely nothing like it was envisioned to be. The guys who built my airplane were completely convinced that I would be driving a flying car by now and there would be colonies on Mars but things didn't pan out that way.
Fact is, if general aviation is going to survive at all it's going to have to evolve and that means that the certificated group, or at least a part of it, is going to meld with the experimental group. So we're all going to be one small happy family in the end. The looming changes with PNC and DL medical indicate the path to the future. Get onboard.
Tom-D
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Well let's take the thread creep in a different direction.
PNC means nothing to me as I already have all the certificates to go either way in the industry, BUT,,, at my advancing age the DL issue does make a difference, I have never felt that the third class medical did any thing for safety of the skys, and should have been abolished long ago.
Getting on board? I have been riding this train a long time, I see changes ahead but won't guess which way it will go until the rules have been made.
Silvaire
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Tom, you ain't that much older than me and I'm an A&P/IA too. All of the work I do in that field is with a select group of people whom I have garnered a relationship with and I do very little wrenching on their airplanes. I will help with some of the more technical stuff but all of them are capable and I do no work for anyone outside of my own choosing. This PNC thing is good for the community as a whole and I'm all for it. If there is anyone out there who is going to lose there livelihood on account of it they ought to find a better vocation.
Tom-D
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That's pretty much where I am, if you are not willing to do the labor and be involved with your aircraft then I don't want to be involved either. and that don't matter if you are EXP or certified.
brien23
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Now that is downright scary..... How many bottles of scotch did ya have to buy for the FAA inspector...
And you do realize your negligence that led to the crash landing does make the experimental side of GA look bad...
So... In reality you have caused the bad eye experimentals are supposebly suffering as claimed by brien23....
Your not a News Reporter are you? " Never let the facts stand in the way of a good story"
I based my comments on Tom's statement..... Where the hell did ya get the cutsie "News Reporter" line..
"
Tom-D
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I based my comments on Tom's statement..... Where the hell did ya get the cutsie "News Reporter" line..
"
No you didn't, you made a couple cutecy wise a$$ statements trying to make me look bad as usual.
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Drake the Outlaw
I thought it was the year collapse that did that.
brien23
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Was that Gear collapse?
Ok.... I guess I have to spoon feed both you and brien23 on your posted (facts).........
This was posted by Tom Downey on March 28,2014 at 5:59pm.... Post #243.....
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For the most part in the production built aircraft the mechanics are more aware of the rules than the EXP buyer that has not built their aircraft.
Type clubs are great at all they do, both sides of the industry, our 170 association is one of the best. The Fairchild group was also great at getting info from other members. Cessna has a club for almost every model they've built, the EXP side of the club subject has Van's, the canard sites, and any more. I feel that the attitude that makes a pilot go to the EXP side is one that leads to thinking they can do most any thing to the aircraft and no one will say any thing to them about following the rules.
all one needs to do to prove this is to simply ask this group if ADs apply to the EXP aircraft and see how many wrong answers you get.
I have picked up too many failed projects and finished them or made them safe to fly to think otherwise.
The Murphy Rebel, I finished the project for an old CDR that I knew in the Navy, after the FAA shut down the local guy who was selling finished aircraft. The owner and I finished the aircraft got it certified, the owner wrecked it, I rebuilt it again he sold it because he got scared of flying it.
The war bird kit was a gear up survivor that I rebuilt, got it flying again, by returning the aircraft landing gear to the kit blue prints. The owner tried to get current again, during taxi practice scared him self and sold the aircraft.
The fisher Celebrity, was 99% done when the owner had a stroke lost his sight and asked me to assemble the aircraft fly off the test period and sell the aircraft. The builder had short cut the plans and rather than welding the landing gear assembly he used pop rivets, which resulted in the gear failing on landing during the delivery trip. No insurance, I ended up buying the wreck, rebuilding the damage and selling it again to the same guy.
So yes I have been there and done that, and formed my opinion,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now let's analyze what he stated and I highlighted on this POA forum board
1- Fact
....The fisher Celebrity, was 99% done when the owner had a stroke lost his sight and asked me to assemble the aircraft fly off the test period and sell the aircraft..Did Tom actually assemble the aircraft of the guy who had a stroke and lost his eyesight...
...He said he did but it could be utter bullsiht..
2- Fact
...The builder had short cut the plans and rather than welding the landing gear assembly he used pop rivets, which resulted in the gear failing on landing during the delivery trip.As the assembler, test pilot and seller of that partially finished Fisher Celebrity kit. Tom had the duty to confirm it was airworthy and conformed to the plans..
He claims the 3/8" paint covering an obvious defective way of assembling the gear..
I claim , as a "experienced A&P /IA" he should have known better and seen the defect...
Ok Brien and Tom....
What facts got in the way of a good story..
..Thanks in advance for your answers ( backpeddling) of my question...
Tom-D
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Ok.... I guess I have to spoon feed both you and brien23 on your posted (facts).........
This was posted by Tom Downey on March 28,2014 at 5:59pm.... Post #243.....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For the most part in the production built aircraft the mechanics are more aware of the rules than the EXP buyer that has not built their aircraft.
Type clubs are great at all they do, both sides of the industry, our 170 association is one of the best. The Fairchild group was also great at getting info from other members. Cessna has a club for almost every model they've built, the EXP side of the club subject has Van's, the canard sites, and any more. I feel that the attitude that makes a pilot go to the EXP side is one that leads to thinking they can do most any thing to the aircraft and no one will say any thing to them about following the rules.
all one needs to do to prove this is to simply ask this group if ADs apply to the EXP aircraft and see how many wrong answers you get.
I have picked up too many failed projects and finished them or made them safe to fly to think otherwise.
The Murphy Rebel, I finished the project for an old CDR that I knew in the Navy, after the FAA shut down the local guy who was selling finished aircraft. The owner and I finished the aircraft got it certified, the owner wrecked it, I rebuilt it again he sold it because he got scared of flying it.
The war bird kit was a gear up survivor that I rebuilt, got it flying again, by returning the aircraft landing gear to the kit blue prints. The owner tried to get current again, during taxi practice scared him self and sold the aircraft.
The fisher Celebrity, was 99% done when the owner had a stroke lost his sight and asked me to assemble the aircraft fly off the test period and sell the aircraft. The builder had short cut the plans and rather than welding the landing gear assembly he used pop rivets, which resulted in the gear failing on landing during the delivery trip. No insurance, I ended up buying the wreck, rebuilding the damage and selling it again to the same guy.
So yes I have been there and done that, and formed my opinion,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now let's analyze what he stated and I highlighted on this POA forum board
1- Fact
Did Tom actually assemble the aircraft of the guy who had a stroke and lost his eyesight...
He said he did but it could be utter bullsiht..
2- Fact
As the assembler, test pilot and seller of that partially finished Fisher Celebrity kit. Tom had the duty to confirm it was airworthy and conformed to the plans..
He claims the 3/8" paint covering an obvious defective way of assembling the gear..
I claim , as a "experienced A&P /IA" he should have known better and seen the defect...
Ok Brien and Tom....
What facts got in the way of a good story..
Thanks in advance for your answers ( backpeddling) of my question...
I think Brien got it right, your assumptions would make a news reporter proud. You don't know the facts of the incident but you assume you do.
Tom-D
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Tom-D
Nope.... you'll only read what you want to see.
Okie dokie........
The other 5063 viewers can decide for themselves on that observation..
Geico266
Touchdown! Greaser!
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