Expensive Photos - Rant

Lowflynjack

Lowflynjack

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Jack Fleetwood
So this weekend, a guy with a good looking King Air 350 asked me how much for some air-to-air photos. This wasn't a new plane, but really nice. I'm assuming somewhere in the $4M-$5M range to buy it. He had specific requirements to get photos over a city about a two hour flight from me in a Bonanza, which I would need for this shoot. I told him I would do it for $1K because I really want to do it. I don't have photos of a King Air. His response, "$1,000, are you kidding me? That's a lot of money."

Doing the math:
  • 5 hours of flying in the Bonanza. $700 for plane and pilot. (Fuel alone would cost $400)
  • Now I'm down to $300 in my pocket for my time taking and editing the photos.
I understand this is a business and I'm offering a service, so you can take or leave it. You can think it's a bargain (especially after you call other photographers) or you can think I'm too high. It's okay with me, I don't need photos of your plane.

The kick in the teeth came next though. "There's a guy who does A2A photos for $200." Yes, there is. Why are you talking to me then? If you like the photos the guy does for $200, call him. Don't tell me you like my photos, but like his price. I will give you my undivided attention when doing a photo shoot. We'll shoot in the correct light. The guy I know who does it for $200 will only do it at that price if he gets 5 airplanes for one shoot. That's not my style. I don't even want to try to organize 5 pilots, one can be a challenge! I'm not knocking that photographer, just saying if you want his work, call him.

Good thing I don't do this for a living. Seriously I think if I don't raise my rates soon and stop doing free shoots, the other photographers are going to have me bumped off!

Rant over. I feel better! Don't bash me too much.
 
People expect too much Jack. I've had the experience instructing. One guy, a DJ, was whining once after a lesson because of my fee ($20/hr in 1988) and that I charged for pre & post flight. So I said well, you don't have to use me, other CFIs here, have at it. That shut him up and we continued. He was a whiner though.

You'll get more of it Jack. If they want quality work, they'll have to pay your fee. If not, see ya.
 
I feel your pain. I dabbled in part-time real estate photography a few years ago. I had a fairly robust portfolio, and was building a decent client list. I had a RE agent approach me about shooting a ~$900 listing. I'm not sure what his listing agreement was regarding commission, but he stood to make a decent amount. When I gave him my price (based on square footage and products delivered, not list price), I got a similar response as you did, "there's an agency doing this for $50". I politely told him that quality does not come cheap, and he agreed. He chose to shoot the property himself with a cell phone. The listing was active for several months and several price reductions with a contract. Fast forward 6months, and he called again. We agreed on a price, and I shot the listing. He had a contract less than a week earlier (for closer to the original list price).

This has happened to me a few times over the years, but once they wasted money, time, or both doing it cheap, the agents that elected to use my services were glad they did in the end. My day job has taken most of my spare time, but I still do shoots for a few agents that truly understand the value of quality. Don't waste your time on the ones that don't see that value!
 
Years ago I had someone come to my door at home with aerial photos that they'd taken of my property. They asked if I would like to buy one and I said sure. "Eighty dollars, one hundred if you want it framed." He said. "I'll give you twenty." I told him. "That's not enough to cover my costs." He said. "I didn't ask you to take pictures of my property. If you want twenty dollars, I have it right now, otherwise have yourself a faboo day."

He took the $20.

The difference is that he asked you, you gave him your price and he wanted to low ball you. I don't blame you Jack, stick to your guns.
 
“$1000 is a lot of money!!!”

Says the guy with a “$3 million dollar plane:confused:
 
Thanks everyone. This has happened more than once and it's the second time someone has mentioned the other guy. I have no ego when it comes to photography or flying, I'm always learning. That's part of the reason I've been doing free pics, so I can improve. There is a lot of pressure to get it right even when it's free. For example when Brent flew down from Dallas. He spends quite a bit of money on fuel, not to mention his time. Even though the service is free, it's not free to him.

There's a very good and famous photographer who does A2A work and I'm reaching out to him to take his workshop to learn more about the industry. I will go into it as a blank slate. I won't be there to teach him anything, I'll be there to learn. You can see his work on the cover of Sport Aviation when he took pics of Doc at Oshkosh.
 
jordane93 said:
“$1000 is a lot of money!!!”

Says the guy with a “$3 million dollar plane:confused:
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And according to AOPA, an average of $4200/hour to operate including crew, hangar, insurance, etc. Maybe he was adding that cost into my price!
 
People discuss this all the time over on the Photography-on-the.net forum. It's a complicated question that there is no one answer to. However, much of it probably comes down to supply and demand. In 2010 camera manufacturers were selling >100 million cameras/year. As of 2016 that dropped to 23 million, but pretty much everyone in the US, Canada, Europe, and much of the rest of the world now has a cell phone with a camera on it. With those cameras, people add approximately 1.8 billion images to the internet each day. That's a heck of a lot of supply.

Add to the mix that quick Google search turns up a photo for any subject you can think of. I posted my photos of NYC at night on here the other day. For my abilities they came out pretty good and I enjoy looking at them, but go onto Google and you can find almost an infinite number that are as good and thousands (if not more) that are better.

Now the aerial photography that you do is beautiful, but lets face it, most individuals that want photos are just going to post a small photo to Facebook. To many of them, a photo out the windshield of a friends plane with an iPhone camera will probably make them just as happy as one of your photos. Not a knock on your photos at all. They are great. But it's just what people value. And right now it doesn't seem like most people tend to value photography.

Heck, I can't even seem to get people interested in free air-to-air photos of their aircraft. They say, "but I already have photos".
 
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Lowflynjack said:
And according to AOPA, an average of $4200/hour to operate including crew, hangar, insurance, etc. Maybe he was adding that cost into my price!
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I think you need to explain better, this is BS (their part). Ask them how much would you pay for your daughters wedding pictures? I have to travel to your stupid location, shoot it, and do post processing> I believe the 1% failed to figure on the Bonanza costs, and travel. All in, the wedding would be easier:confused:
 
SkyDog58 said:
Tell him to buy a very long selfie stick.
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Don't knock it...

gopro.jpg
 
I think this is something all professional photographers have run into. Used to be you had to have a lot of money invested to be a professional, studio, high end camera, printing equipment, etc. Today you see a lot of stay-at-home moms with a $500 Nikon DSLR peddling themselves as professional photography, and doing it for little or nothing since they have no overhead costs. With the advent of digital equipment it is easier to ensure you "got the shot", easier to edit, and the camera's are able to make even a mediocre photographer look like a champ.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I think this is something all professional photographers have run into. Used to be you had to have a lot of money invested to be a professional, studio, high end camera, printing equipment, etc. Today you see a lot of stay-at-home moms with a $500 Nikon DSLR peddling themselves as professional photography, and doing it for little or nothing since they have no overhead costs. With the advent of digital equipment it is easier to ensure you "got the shot", easier to edit, and the camera's are able to make even a mediocre photographer look like a champ.
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This is the blessing and the curse to photography. Not having a lot (or any) overhead can make it possible for anyone with the talent and desire to find their niche market/customer, whereas if there was a significant monetary investment needed, those individuals may be otherwise deterred. The cure is just as you stated, and we have all encountered, there are more "photographers" than there are customers. The result is anyone who can point n' shoot can charge $100 for a session and be on their merry way, which undercuts the market for those trying to make a living in the business. The only way to survive is to specialize in something, let your work and customer service do the talking, and not waste your time on low ballers and tire kickers. The portfolio and client list will come with time.
 
AWACSEng said:
This is the blessing and the curse to photography. Not having a lot (or any) overhead can make it possible for anyone with the talent and desire to find their niche market/customer, whereas if there was a significant monetary investment needed, those individuals may be otherwise deterred. The cure is just as you stated, and we have all encountered, there are more "photographers" than there are customers. The result is anyone who can point n' shoot can charge $100 for a session and be on their merry way, which undercuts the market for those trying to make a living in the business. The only way to survive is to specialize in something, let your work and customer service do the talking, and not waste your time on low ballers and tire kickers. The portfolio and client list will come with time.
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Yeah, it's funny to me when people don't think it takes a lot of money to become a photographer. I've got thousands and thousands of dollars invested and people still think they can get as-good of a shot with their phone. I don't do any of my own printing since that has become way too cheap for me to invest in my own equipment, however. Things change and we have to adapt. Ask a helicopter pilot what they think of drones... then stand back!

I showed up with my camera in my truck and planned to snap a few shots, but bride had made it clear I was only a guest and she had hired a photographer. When I saw the photographer walking around with nothing but a point-and-shoot camera, I asked if it would be okay if I took some photos during the wedding. My photos were the only ones they could print.

At another friend's wedding I was taking a few photos before the wedding and the "professional" saw me. He asked my friend to tell me to stop taking photos. It was his wedding, so I said okay and put the camera away. The photographer skipped town with their money and never gave them one photo. The only pics they have are the ones I took before and that wasn't many.
 
That's more than fair. People don't understand how long it takes to edit and make pictures look good, how much cameras/glass/etc. costs, and the skill needed to get shots like yours.
 
You can also draw the similarities to the flying profession. It is something that is a hobby for many, and a lot of people would do for free just to be able to fly. The only thing that has created enough of a hurdle to drive up wages is regulation.
 
I think the cheaper equipment, especially the DSLR cameras, are great. Some of the lower end cameras amaze me with their quality and it gives people a chance to learn how to use them, and learn the magic of using different lenses.

However, in the aviation world, not knowing what you're doing can kill you. There a group on FB where someone wants to have an air-to-air fly-in and everyone takes photos of everyone else. That scares me! It's photography, formation flying, trying to get good scenery, etc. I've had pilots who take to it easily and pilots who are sweating when we're done with a shoot.
 
Jeez, the 5 hours of billable flying sounds like a perfectly logical explanation of the total fee. Fook ‘em.
 
Don’t get upset. Too many cheapskates like that to worry about. Stick to the people that appreciate your work. From the stuff youve shown on here, it seems to be warranted.
 
For what it is worth, I’d happily pay your fee for pics of my airplane if it weren’t for the distance!
 
I got a call from someone whose boss had written a book, asking if I would edit it. I figured I could do it for $1200. She said, "Why so much? The book is already written. All you need to do is put in some adjectives and stuff." I wanted to say, "OK, for $300 I'll send you a bunch of adjectives and you can put them wherever you like."

Idiot.
 
Jack, I hope to get down there to get some photos of my ship. I have to admit, I've gotten sticker shock form quotes before. I do try and analyze where costs are coming from, though. I don't know the airplane you can fly for less than a hundred dollars an hour, and you do have to cover your costs.

I wouldn't want to be a pro photographer for any money. Everyone thinks they're Odin's gift to art because they have a cell phone camera. At least everyone doesn't think they can fly a damn airplane.
 
Sounds like auto/aircraft detailing. "I want a professional grade detail for $20-$100". LOL.
 
I think you're taking this too personally.

You're providing a fairly niche service. I know I had no idea (before this thread) what to expect as a reasonable price and probably most others don't either. To me anything that cost $1,000 is a lot of money, even if it may be a cheap price for whatever good or service. But if I'm educated and understand why it's $1,000.00 it makes it much more palatable. If the prospective customer did a little research and/or been told there's a guy that does A2A photos for $200 I can understand his sticker shock at your quote. I also understand how you arrived at your fee and it seems easily justifiable and reasonable.

What was the prospective customer's response when you explained your fee?
 
Stick to your guns.

The guy that owned the A35 before I did has some really nice PROFESSIONAL A2A photos done at Oshkosh one year. (The year he won an award for the A35.) Let's just say that I've seen a lot of hack jobs with nice cameras. Then there is the photo shoot they did.

Those pics of the polished Bonanza on XYZ website - yep, that is the A35.

I'm basically in a service industry too: IT. Everyone has "programmed" an Excel macro at this point. When I get some hard head saying he (usually he) can do it himself, I say "have fun". They usually come back later ...
 
idahoflier said:
I know I had no idea (before this thread) what to expect as a reasonable price and probably most others don't either.
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I've been telling folks that see the pictures Jack took of my Tango that something like this would have normally been about $5k. I have no idea how close I am to the real figure.
 
Lowflynjack said:
So this weekend, a guy with a good looking King Air 350 asked me how much for some air-to-air photos. This wasn't a new plane, but really nice. I'm assuming somewhere in the $4M-$5M range to buy it. He had specific requirements to get photos over a city about a two hour flight from me in a Bonanza, which I would need for this shoot. I told him I would do it for $1K because I really want to do it. I don't have photos of a King Air. His response, "$1,000, are you kidding me? That's a lot of money."

Doing the math:
  • 5 hours of flying in the Bonanza. $700 for plane and pilot. (Fuel alone would cost $400)
  • Now I'm down to $300 in my pocket for my time taking and editing the photos.
I understand this is a business and I'm offering a service, so you can take or leave it. You can think it's a bargain (especially after you call other photographers) or you can think I'm too high. It's okay with me, I don't need photos of your plane.

The kick in the teeth came next though. "There's a guy who does A2A photos for $200." Yes, there is. Why are you talking to me then? If you like the photos the guy does for $200, call him. Don't tell me you like my photos, but like his price. I will give you my undivided attention when doing a photo shoot. We'll shoot in the correct light. The guy I know who does it for $200 will only do it at that price if he gets 5 airplanes for one shoot. That's not my style. I don't even want to try to organize 5 pilots, one can be a challenge! I'm not knocking that photographer, just saying if you want his work, call him.

Good thing I don't do this for a living. Seriously I think if I don't raise my rates soon and stop doing free shoots, the other photographers are going to have me bumped off!

Rant over. I feel better! Don't bash me too much.
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Jack,
Next time something like this comes up just present it to the client like you did to us.

The shoot and editing the photos will cost $300 plus the cost of a plane and pilot approx $300 and fuel approx $400.

I feel if you break it down into smaller bits it is easier to swallow.
 
Jack, my wife recently quit doing photography largely for what you've observed. It was especially hard when she was doing family photos due to the number of moms with a DSLR who did terrible work, but charged basically nothing. Meanwhile my wife actually took excellent pictures and spent time in Lightroom and Photoshop to make them really shine.

It goes for any other service. People significantly undervalue time of those who do a good job. I don't do much instruction or commercial piloting, but if I do I'm by no means the cheapest (nor the most expensive). But for what I do, I'm experienced and highly qualified.

Lowest cost doesn't mean best value.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
It goes for any other service. People significantly undervalue time of those who do a good job. I don't do much instruction or commercial piloting, but if I do I'm by no means the cheapest (nor the most expensive). But for what I do, I'm experienced and highly qualified.

Lowest cost doesn't mean best value.
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This, this, and effing' this.

Keep on keepin' on, Jack. I'd pay your rate all day long.
 
Anymouse said:
I've been telling folks that see the pictures Jack took of my Tango that something like this would have normally been about $5k. I have no idea how close I am to the real figure.
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I like your style!!
 
Art comes from the artist, not from the tools.

Here's the difference between gear and chops:

Or if you don't like trumpets:

A good photographer can take great pictures with an iPhone. A wealthy fool can take terrible pictures with a Canon 1DX. And a fool is born every minute, so that wealthy fool can even make a little money selling terrible pictures taken with an expensive camera. But that doesn't mean the value of the good photographer's artwork is any lower.

It does, however, mean that the good photographer has to deal with a more obnoxious marketing situation than existed back when you had to buy 100 rolls of film to take 1,000 bad photographs. I think you should point out to customers like that the old adage: Do it right, or do it twice. When you're burning Jet-A to pose for a photograph, do you really want to risk having to do it twice to get a good result?
 
Scott@KTYR said:
Jack,
Next time something like this comes up just present it to the client like you did to us.

The shoot and editing the photos will cost $300 plus the cost of a plane and pilot approx $300 and fuel approx $400.

I feel if you break it down into smaller bits it is easier to swallow.
Click to expand...

Another way to lower the number. Tell it'll cost one...AMU.
 
My wife loves to take pictures and is my no means a professional photographer, she has a pretty good digital camera and takes her time making sure she gets good pictures. We went to a wedding a couple years ago on New Year's Eve. It was a smallish affair, maybe 50-60 people total. She brought her camera and then found out they hadn't hired a photographer for the wedding!! Of course, she sprung into action and took a lot of great pictures, were they as good as the ones we paid $$$$$ for at our daughter's wedding, no, but they bride and groom were thrilled at the cost! LOL $1000 to take A2A pictures seems like a decent price to me!
 
I will look at this purely from a customer perspective. If I want to purchase a product or service, I quite frankly don't care what your costs are. If the market is competitive, you have to compete either on price OR one or more other elements which customers value if you want to grow and sustain your business. In my experience, photography is oversaturated with suppliers virtually everywhere.

Most folks (including employers) don't seem to value high-quality work, so the market for those who are willing to pay for it is going to be much smaller than the market for those who want to pay less and tolerate lower quality. On the other hand, I'm sick and tired of small business folks who act like I owe them something despite their higher price for the same or lesser product or service. If you're going to sell into a market, you have to be willing to compete in that market as well.


JKG
 
Let the cheapskates have their $200 shoots Jack, stick with those who understand your costs without you having to explain it to them. Better customers to have.

@iamtheari , the damned 60 Hz hum on that Fender was driving me nuts trying to listen to him play.
 
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